Exposing for different skin colours

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Danny
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Genuine question, please don't be locking the thread calling me a racist or something.

At an event I was stood near to the door getting shots of guests arriving. It was a disco and very formal. A couple entered the room, a white woman and black man. I locked the focus from the womans face (Aperture priority mode) and it exposed her face fine but her partners face was dark and lost, I picked up a bit of the flash reflection from his cheeks and forehead.

I asked them if I could get another (as I always do, incase one was blinking) and this time tried to expose for his skin and the womans face came out bright white and blurry.

To make things worse, he had a white suit on.

Any advice on what to do should I be in this situation again?
 
my suspicion is that the camera underexposed when you were metering the caucasian skin and overexposed when you were metering the afrocaribbean skin. In practise the 2 skin tones are generally only 1-2 stops apart in terms of metering. If you place the caucasian skin around 1-1.5+ EV, the afrocaribbean skin will expose quite well too.
 
my suspicion is that the camera underexposed when you were metering the caucasian skin and overexposed when you were metering the afrocaribbean skin. In practise the 2 skin tones are generally only 1-2 stops apart in terms of metering. If you place the caucasian skin around 1-1.5+ EV, the afrocaribbean skin will expose quite well too.

But we're talking 1 RAW file here. I tried to do some cleanup yesterday in Lightroom but anything I do just looks unnatural.
 
But we're talking 1 RAW file here. I tried to do some cleanup yesterday in Lightroom but anything I do just looks unnatural.

i think theres a little confusion, you only really need expose for one element correctly and the rest should be fine. I am a little suprised that the camera overexposed when you metered the afrocaribbean skin, as it is close to midtone 18%. How was the flash used? Was it diffused in any way?

Theres a really good thread here that should help explain things a little.
Metering and WB
 
Danny, I think what's meant is, meter on the caucasian skin, and adjust the meter so it reads +1 to +1.5 over exposed... that should put both people within the range of reasonable exposure.
 
I'm in work at the minute so don't have access to the original image. I do have an image were he's in the background though and you'll see what I mean:

lrg_11579_380919534c0e7985b8759.jpg


So +1.0 should do it? Seems that I'd gone from one extreme to the other with it and nowhere inbetween.

I'll give it a try.

Roof had pillars and glass so I just had a diffuser over the flashgun, no bounce.
 
Just as an aside, many black people find the term Afro-Caribbean offensive.
 
Just as an aside, many black people find the term Afro-Caribbean offensive.

rightly or wrongly, its still a generally accepted terminology. The ones that I know haven't expressed any issues when I have used the term.
 
How has this thread got onto race? :thinking::thinking:

This is a photography forum and you should be trying to put the OP right on his shootin' skills.

For Jaffster,

Exposure compensation is what you need to read up on.
 
I'm in work at the minute so don't have access to the original image. I do have an image were he's in the background though and you'll see what I mean:

lrg_11579_380919534c0e7985b8759.jpg

Not an expert in these matters but from what I can see in this image this looks fine. If you had dialled +1 probably you would have overexposed the couple in focus which I assume you were aiming at getting well exposed.
If you look at the other girls in the background they certainly seem to have suffered the consequences of a typical dark background when exposing with flash. It would be pretty normal darker shades and colours in the background to come up the way his face came out.

Having said this may be in the original question where you mention when you tried to expose the couple arriving then it could have been a different matter. There you were focusing at them directly so perhaps this image might not be reflective of what you were trying to ask.
 
Had a similar issue in Iraq a couple of years ago - the American commanding General at the time was very black, so I told the (Southern-US) photographer to remember to adjust accordingly when he did the portraits.

610x.jpg


Lt Gen Lloyd J Austin, US Army.

Ron came back having photographed him in the noonday sun out on the airfield with him still wearing his peaked cloth cap.

All you could see was teeth.

To cap it all, Ron exclaimed in a hurt southern louisiana drawl: " Oh ma Gawhd, he looks jus lahk a goddam Tar-Baby!"

The whole office just collapsed in an untidy heap as his First Sergeant berated him "Reeves! You ass-hole redneck!"...


So yes, you do need to overexpose a wee bit to get all the skin tones on darker-skinned individuals - if they have pale partners or white suits on, you just have to work a bit harder...lol
 
Had a similar issue in Iraq a couple of years ago - the American commanding General at the time was very black, so I told the (Southern-US) photographer to remember to adjust accordingly when he did the portraits.

610x.jpg


Lt Gen Lloyd J Austin, US Army.

Ron came back having photographed him in the noonday sun out on the airfield with him still wearing his peaked cloth cap.

All you could see was teeth.

To cap it all, Ron exclaimed in a hurt southern louisiana drawl: " Oh ma Gawhd, he looks jus lahk a goddam Tar-Baby!"

The whole office just collapsed in an untidy heap as his First Sergeant berated him "Reeves! You ass-hole redneck!"...


So yes, you do need to overexpose a wee bit to get all the skin tones on darker-skinned individuals - if they have pale partners or white suits on, you just have to work a bit harder...lol

That's the kind of response I was after, but left the first line of my post in as I knew that, this being TP, it would soon enter a discussion on race.

It is no biggie that this shot wasn't used, the shots were presented to the couple and they were happy, however this wasn't included but it has been on my to-do list just for my own satisfaction.

The above image I posted was merely an example.

The closest I came to getting something that look genuine was using a sidewards ND filter in Lightroom but there was still lost data in the RAW file. I think next time possibly using some exposure bracketing to try and get something usable?
 
That's the kind of response I was after, but left the first line of my post in as I knew that, this being TP, it would soon enter a discussion on race.

It is no biggie that this shot wasn't used, the shots were presented to the couple and they were happy, however this wasn't included but it has been on my to-do list just for my own satisfaction.

The above image I posted was merely an example.

The closest I came to getting something that look genuine was using a sidewards ND filter in Lightroom but there was still lost data in the RAW file. I think next time possibly using some exposure bracketing to try and get something usable?

Apologies if your thread got hijacked, only takes one member to put the cat in amongst the chickens :D

You shouldn't really have to bracket. Because the two skin types are only 2 stops apart in terms of tonality, if you expose the brighter skin well, the darker skin will come up nicely too. The rest can be taken care of in post production.
 
It's just like any other subject - you have to expose for the amount of light being reflected off the subject.
A darker object will require 'more' exposure to bring out the detail.
 
Easy now, I wasn't trying to stir up a race row. All I know is I used the term often believing it was an acceptable term only to be told on more than one occasion it was considered offensive to many black English folks. TBH, I think we're all far too sensitive about isms full-stop. :)
 
I can't help but think that there is no ideal solution to this problem.

We can all quote EV this or the other, but surely whatever you do, the result is not going to be perfect and will require some PP (IMHO)?
 
It's just like any other subject - you have to expose for the amount of light being reflected off the subject.
A darker object will require 'more' exposure to bring out the detail.

Unless you use an incident meter to fix the highlights.
The blacks will then fall into place.

It used to be easier in black and white, you could use a light orange filter which lifted the browns but did nothing helpful with a light skinned girls complexion or lipstick.

Mind you, when they have a real ebony complexion, You just have to let the highlights go.
 
It's a classic dilemma. Same as the wedding shot where you've got the bride in a white dress and the groom in a dark suit. The solution there is to expose for the dress and sod the groom but with portraits it's not so easy.

I had the same issue recently with a really quite dark guy with a pale girl. I fixed it quite well in post by just lifting the shadow level. So long as you have a decent exposure in the first place (ie histogram well to the right) it's okay.

If you're shooting JPEGs I think the Canon ALO (Auto Lighting Optimser) setting does much the same thing.
 
Unless you use an incident meter to fix the highlights.
The blacks will then fall into place...

Agreed, but how many of us still do that? How many of us even own one these days?
I own several light meters of varying vintage; never use them - ever. Not even my flash-meter in the studio.

Matrix- (or Evaluative) metering is so sophisticated that it can cope with 99% of all situations. What it still cannot do is recognise your priorities within a scene. It all boils down to knowing the limitations of your kit and having the technique to overcome them.
 
Unless you use an incident meter to fix the highlights.
The blacks will then fall into place.

It used to be easier in black and white, you could use a light orange filter which lifted the browns but did nothing helpful with a light skinned girls complexion or lipstick.

Mind you, when they have a real ebony complexion, You just have to let the highlights go.

An incident reading will help, the crux of the issue is the dynamic range of the scene vs the dynamic range of the sensor. Ultimately, there is always a compromise. We "expose slightly to the right" for a reason

I sometimes use a hand held meter. There is another school of thought saying expose for the brides face (not the dress)

All of these methods are really just fine-tuning where in the sensors dynamic range are we pitching the image, and deciding what are we prepared to loose

One tip would be to reduce the dynamic range in the scene by lighting the darker parts more (reflector, flash etc)
 
Agreed, but how many of us still do that? How many of us even own one these days?
I own several light meters of varying vintage; never use them - ever. Not even my flash-meter in the studio.

Matrix- (or Evaluative) metering is so sophisticated that it can cope with 99% of all situations. What it still cannot do is recognise your priorities within a scene. It all boils down to knowing the limitations of your kit and having the technique to overcome them.

Much as it grieves me to agree with Rob, this is spot on :thumbs:

Folks that say an incident reading is the answer are not appreciating that it is a technique for exposing slide film. Not negative film, and certainly not digital.

While every situation is different in terms of tonal range (ie the OP) and your own priorities, not to mention different sensors, an incident meter reading will always put 18% grey where (it thinks) 18% grey sits on the sensor.

That's perfect for slide film, but for digital it usually means a bit of under exposure and quite possibly a lot of under exposure if you want to maximise the sensor's potential with a bit of expose-to-the-right technique.
 
Much as it grieves me to agree with Rob, this is spot on :thumbs:

Folks that say an incident reading is the answer are not appreciating that it is a technique for exposing slide film. Not negative film, and certainly not digital.

While every situation is different in terms of tonal range (ie the OP) and your own priorities, not to mention different sensors, an incident meter reading will always put 18% grey where (it thinks) 18% grey sits on the sensor.

That's perfect for slide film, but for digital it usually means a bit of under exposure and quite possibly a lot of under exposure if you want to maximise the sensor's potential with a bit of expose-to-the-right technique.

I do not agree...
Incident meters used correctly set the highlights correctly for any media film or digital. negative or positive.

They were and are the mainstay of the film world where fluctuations in exposure between scenes is vital.

where 18% falls is not only determined by the internal electronics but also the ISO set.

When used for digital work the sensor response for any unit is quickly established and standardised.

Like any meter how they are used also has a bearing, for weddings with extreme back or side lighting a duplex reading is preferable. This combined with a fill flash will bring the brightness range into check.

Do many wedding photographers do this ... unfortunately not... most would say they don't have time, and the rest would not know how.

However the time factor is not what it might seem, because if the light remains constant, and except for days with scudding clouds it does, there is no need to take a reading every shot. Not intuitive but true.
 
I do not agree...
Incident meters used correctly set the highlights correctly for any media film or digital. negative or positive.

<snip>

But that's not true. They do not set the highlights correctly, not necessarily, because they don't know what the highlight limit before blowing is for a given sensor, or the subject, or the the post processing that's applied.

An incident meter simply pegs 18% grey to 18% grey, and assumes that the highlights will blow at about three stops above that. That's all they do, and it works well for slide film, but doesn't necessarily apply to digital.

Certainly, if you want to optimise the amount of important/relevant data recorded on the sensor, then you will usually want to push 18% grey quite a lot higher - ie expose to the right, of the histogram.

Ultimately I don't really understand the fussing about metering methods, which are only ever a best guess at what might be recorded. That's very helpful of course, but the LCD/histogram/blinkies tells you exactly what has been actually recorded. No guesswork. Work from there and tweak it as you like.

From that I guess you could argue that an incident reading, once it has been custom calibrated properly, should allow you do get it right more often. In practical terms, this is what we do when using a key tone to check the exposure reading against - grass, tarmac, brick wall, anything of a consistent tone in the same light as the subject.

I do that all the time, and you often see professionals doing it, at sports venues for example, pointing their long lenses at the ground. In a way, that's a modified and customised incident reading, that is pegging a key tone to a consistent exposure level according to the precise shooting situation, and making sure it stays there.
 
Living in a racist community - some Barnsley folk here would make the KKK seen moderate :shake: and NO I am noy in the slightest racist - I've only EVER had one darker skinned person in a portrait session (a kid of about 5 yrs old, cute as Hell he was :))

I simply shot him at the same settings as the white kids, then adjusted exposure later to drag some skin tones out and his family didn't like them as I'd made him too pale :bonk:

It really can be a tricky one. My last Wedding had a couple who were guests where he was Nigerian and very black skinned and she was a pure white English lass - I exposed for her skin and he went so black only really teeth & eyes are obvious, and they love the shot

Sometimes you just cannot win with the exposure range such images require, so expose for the one who will moan most if you get it 'wrong' and you'll be ok :lol:

DD
 
My very first wedding as an assistant to Ryan was mixed race - bride in white dress and fair skinned, groom Ugandan, if I recall correctly, and wearing black, including a top hat just to add some extra shadows to his eyes in sunshine....it really was a baptism of fire and hard work, requiring quite a bit of corrective pp afterwards. However, it is one of those things you just have to deal with, expose as with as much balance as you can and deal with it afterwards I think. Avoiding extremes of light will help if its possible.
 
Just as an aside, many black people find the term Afro-Caribbean offensive.

Some also find the term "black people" offensive (especially across the pond). You can't please everybody. :)
 
Some also find the term "black people" offensive (especially across the pond). You can't please everybody. :)

Quite - just as I've often found that many US-Americans find the term: Colonial Rebel Scum mildly offensive too...

:shrug:
 
But that's not true. They do not set the highlights correctly, not necessarily, because they don't know what the highlight limit before blowing is for a given sensor, or the subject, or the the post processing that's applied.

An incident meter simply pegs 18% grey to 18% grey, and assumes that the highlights will blow at about three stops above that. That's all they do, and it works well for slide film, but doesn't necessarily apply to digital.

Certainly, if you want to optimise the amount of important/relevant data recorded on the sensor, then you will usually want to push 18% grey quite a lot higher - ie expose to the right, of the histogram.

Ultimately I don't really understand the fussing about metering methods, which are only ever a best guess at what might be recorded. That's very helpful of course, but the LCD/histogram/blinkies tells you exactly what has been actually recorded. No guesswork. Work from there and tweak it as you like.

From that I guess you could argue that an incident reading, once it has been custom calibrated properly, should allow you do get it right more often. In practical terms, this is what we do when using a key tone to check the exposure reading against - grass, tarmac, brick wall, anything of a consistent tone in the same light as the subject.

I do that all the time, and you often see professionals doing it, at sports venues for example, pointing their long lenses at the ground. In a way, that's a modified and customised incident reading, that is pegging a key tone to a consistent exposure level according to the precise shooting situation, and making sure it stays there.

I have not disagreed with you in stating that an incident meter is calibrated to 18% we both say that...
of course they would have to be or incident and reflection meters would give different results.

The practical difference is that an incident meter is not influenced by the tone colour or surface of the subject. any part of the subject that is reflecting at 18% will come out as a mid tone any way. Highlights will be white and deep shadows black. all with out any compensation.

A reflectance meter will establish any part of the scene it is pointed at as an 18% mid tone. if you point it at a highlight or white snow it will come out mid grey and pointed at a dark shadow it will also come out as a mid grey. this is plainly not what is required with out compensation. only if you point it at something that is 18% will all tones come out as you wish.

Just like any tool a light meter needs calibrating The old weston meters did this by providing a series of letters , which indicated the brightness range of negative and transparency film.

This was near enough for most people. However it was always worth finding your own adjustment for setting the film speed. As this would take care of any processing and techniques peculiar to you own equipment and working methods.

The same is true today with digital. Just as people processed films to arrive at different film speeds... So do digital sensors vary. Fortunately they are even more consistent than films ever were. so once you find the limits of your sensor by trial and error or measurement, you can adjust the film speed setting accordingly. this adjustment will remain constant.
Thereafter incident readings need no further adjustment. Though as I said in my previous post it is still necessary to know when it preferable to use duplex readings.

Key tones are an excellent method of using a reflectance meter either through the lens or manual. The method used by many wedding photographers has been to get close to the Bride and groom and take a reading from your own hand. this may not be exactly 18% but it will be a consistent tone every time. and all your shots will have a consistent tonal range. you will have to set the appropriately adjusted iso speed to take advantage of the sensors full capability.

All exposure methods are simply to try to get the available range of light to fit the range of the film or sensor, in a standardised way.

The original Norwood super Director incident meter set the standard in the film industry (I have had one from new) the modern equivalent the Sekonic 308 is still available.

The most accurate light measuring device ever available to Photographers was the SEI photometer spot meter (which has a 1/2 degree spot) I used one at college but never owned one.
 
I have not disagreed with you in stating that an incident meter is calibrated to 18% we both say that...
of course they would have to be or incident and reflection meters would give different results.

The practical difference is that an incident meter is not influenced by the tone colour or surface of the subject. any part of the subject that is reflecting at 18% will come out as a mid tone any way. Highlights will be white and deep shadows black. all with out any compensation.

A reflectance meter will establish any part of the scene it is pointed at as an 18% mid tone. if you point it at a highlight or white snow it will come out mid grey and pointed at a dark shadow it will also come out as a mid grey. this is plainly not what is required with out compensation. only if you point it at something that is 18% will all tones come out as you wish.

Just like any tool a light meter needs calibrating The old weston meters did this by providing a series of letters , which indicated the brightness range of negative and transparency film.

This was near enough for most people. However it was always worth finding your own adjustment for setting the film speed. As this would take care of any processing and techniques peculiar to you own equipment and working methods.

The same is true today with digital. Just as people processed films to arrive at different film speeds... So do digital sensors vary. Fortunately they are even more consistent than films ever were. so once you find the limits of your sensor by trial and error or measurement, you can adjust the film speed setting accordingly. this adjustment will remain constant.
Thereafter incident readings need no further adjustment. Though as I said in my previous post it is still necessary to know when it preferable to use duplex readings.

Key tones are an excellent method of using a reflectance meter either through the lens or manual. The method used by many wedding photographers has been to get close to the Bride and groom and take a reading from your own hand. this may not be exactly 18% but it will be a consistent tone every time. and all your shots will have a consistent tonal range. you will have to set the appropriately adjusted iso speed to take advantage of the sensors full capability.

All exposure methods are simply to try to get the available range of light to fit the range of the film or sensor, in a standardised way.

The original Norwood super Director incident meter set the standard in the film industry (I have had one from new) the modern equivalent the Sekonic 308 is still available.

The most accurate light measuring device ever available to Photographers was the SEI photometer spot meter (which has a 1/2 degree spot) I used one at college but never owned one.

Terry, I'm not sure what we're disgreeing about now, except that you said you disagreed with what I said previously :thinking:

The point I want to make, and I think it's important given that people are still saying that an incident reading is best - usually without any qualification or understanding (neither of which applies to you, I know!).

And that is, an incident meter is calibrated to a basic assumption that 'white' is fixed at a certain level above 18% grey. That level is good for slide film, at about three stops, but white is not a fixed tone. The piece of paper I have in front of me now is white, but so too is the sun. Except that it is about a million times brighter.

Where is white for my digital camera? Let's say for this purpose that it is the point at which it blows to just beyond the dynamic range. That varies with different sensors, and even more according to the post processing (or JPEG presets) that are applied. Equally, in a typical scene you will have white in terms of sunlight shining off cheeks and chins, or white collars and cuffs etc, and I will want to retain just a little detail there right at the extreme edge of the histogram. But the very bright specular highlights that are reflecting off shiny things like chrome, or gloss paintwork or whatever, well I don't care about them - they can blow. And if I was to attempt to retain detail there, I would end up with serious under exposure over the rest of the scene.

So in every situation I am making judgements that the incident meter's calibration knows nothing about. I am trying to squeeze the maximum amount of relevant data on to the sensor, pushing important highlights right to the edge, and in doing so pulling the shadow end up to a position where a lot more detail will be recorded.

Basically, I am exposing to the right, because with digital I can pull the tones back down again to where they should be in post processing, but I'll have a considerably enhanced image as a result, with much more shadow detail in particular. An incident reading does not allow you to do that, and so therefore your statement that "Incident meters used correctly set the highlights correctly for any media film or digital" cannot be true.

I'm not talking about half a stop here and there, the difference between the settings suggested by an incident reading with a hand meter, and an optimised exposure setting made after checking the LCD/histogram/blinkies is usually in the order of two or even three stops.
 
Quite - just as I've often found that many US-Americans find the term: Colonial Rebel Scum mildly offensive too...

:shrug:


Brilliant..............:lol:
 
Quite - just as I've often found that many US-Americans find the term: Colonial Rebel Scum mildly offensive too...

:shrug:

I'll have to remember that one the next time my wife gives me a hard time, especially today, given that it's "Independence Day" and everything. ;)
 
I'll have to remember that one the next time my wife gives me a hard time, especially today, given that it's "Independence Day" and everything. ;)

And please remember to point out - as I just have again - that the US is not 234 years old but 226.

The Revolutionary War wasn't actually won until 1784, not 1776...They were still British at that point and the revolutionaries had a lot less support than popular myth now suggests - fewer than 2000 soldiers served under George Washington at one point - less than one in every 1,100.
 
...where 18% falls is not only determined by the internal electronics but also the ISO set... so once you find the limits of your sensor by trial and error or measurement, you can adjust the film speed setting accordingly. This adjustment will remain constant.

I tend to sit up and listen when I read something like -- "65 years with the photography bug and counting." But I'm thinking I must be still half-asleep here.

Could you please elaborate, if you've time, on the link between a DSLR's metering calculation and the ISO settings?

Thanks.

:)
 
Basically, I am exposing to the right, because with digital I can pull the tones back down again to where they should be in post processing, but I'll have a considerably enhanced image as a result, with much more shadow detail in particular. An incident reading does not allow you to do that, and so therefore your statement that "Incident meters used correctly set the highlights correctly for any media film or digital" cannot be true.

QUOTE]

That is the point I am disagreeing about. Perhaps people are taught differently today, however All meters are calibrated to ISO standards. these make assumptions as to where the various tone points lay. It is up to you the user to make adjustments to suit your personal preferences. This is just as easy, and done the same way on both reflectance and incident meters... there is no difficulty at all.
You simply set the Iso speed accordingly. this will in the case of a digital sensor, slide the range of resultant tones up or down as you wish.

( digital sensor ISO adjusters work differently to hand meters as they increase or decrease the actual sensitivity. on a hand meter it simply adjusts the scale.)

maximum white in photographic terms was always equated to the whiteness of magnesium oxide ( I suspect titanium oxide is close)
Spectral whites are too bright to be captured anyway.

This is more simply done with a through the lens meter by using an exposure adjustment. However in that case, as the reading is also affected by the subject matter, you have to make a subjective guess how many stops of adjustment are needed for ever shot.

With an Incident meter,this process has the same effect as your "exposing to the right" ... but in a more controlled and exact way. You will be setting the exposure to fit the exact curve as required to use the maximum range of your sensor, and keeping your highlights open.

As these things only need doing once on an incident meter it is very convenient, and cuts out the guess work.


Life has moved on ...and most people including myself do not care to use hand held meters any more, we uses instead the various built in features of our cameras, even though we know they are only approximations and require further adjustment.
 
I tend to sit up and listen when I read something like -- "65 years with the photography bug and counting." But I'm thinking I must be still half-asleep here.

Could you please elaborate, if you've time, on the link between a DSLR's metering calculation and the ISO settings?


Thanks.

:)

I have covered that in my most recent post... The problem is... a DSLR meter and Hand Held meters ( or SLR) work differently.

when you adjust the ISO on a DSLR you are adjusting the way the signal from the sensor is amplified ( its sensitivity)

When you adjust the ISO on a Hand (or SLR) meter you are simply rotating a scale. This gives you a read out of the exposure to set or (in the case of a SLR the auto exposure setting)... by adjusting the the ISO on a hand meter by one stop value, all you get is an adjusted value equal to one stop. This is very useful as every reading you then make is adjusted by that exact amount. This lets you expose to the left or right as it is called with out having to think about it.

Adjusting the ISO on a DSLR simply changes the effective sensitivity of the sensor, it will not compensate.

That is probably clear as mud ... However I have had a very long time to adsorb these things.
 
And please remember to point out - as I just have again - that the US is not 234 years old but 226.

The Revolutionary War wasn't actually won until 1784, not 1776...They were still British at that point and the revolutionaries had a lot less support than popular myth now suggests - fewer than 2000 soldiers served under George Washington at one point - less than one in every 1,100.

True

But are you trying to start another war.

:suspect:
 
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