Fao ?Hoppy Garry Edwards .. anyone

Looking at your various related posts... my immediate guess is that pretty much all your shots are out of focus - don't know why. Don't know whether this thread will help


If you're running a studio, never show unfinished work. You also should be able to light a white background without mopping up round the subject
I understand the reason for saying this, but disagree 100%. Nobody can help you identify problems if they are looking at retouched shots, we need to see them "as shot" Feel free to email me an original file, garry at photolearn dot co dot uk
 
Looks like focus error. Assuming the first pic of the girl is uncropped, at 85mm you'll be around 1.8m/6ft away. At f/8, your DoF will only be 13cm/5in, so unless you are focusing and refocusing almost continuously, any subject and/or camera movement with throw it out, especially true with kids.

Suggest using back-button AF, select focus point nearest the eyes, and just keep pressing it whenever there is any movement. You may find servo-AF easier for subjects that move a lot, and use f/11 if you need a deeper DoF safety net, but diffraction will soften the image noticeably at f/16.

Shutter speed will make no difference using flash.

Looking at the other thread you linked (sorry, I hardly ever go into those other forums) your white balance is out. If that's a plain white background, just put the LR dropper on that for correction - it will be extremely close.

You also have flare issues, always a problem with white backgrounds, washing out colour and contrast. Suggest screening off all areas outside the image with boards - something like this http://www.zarias.com/white-seamless-tutorial-part-1-gear-space/ Suggest get a couple of poly boards, big ones the size of a door sold for insulation at DIY stores, and paint one side black. They are fantastically useful for studio work as screens or reflectors or black reflectors for taking light away.
 
As above.
Bear in mind too that there is in reality no such animal as depth of field. Only one point in a photo is really as sharp as it can be.

DOF tables assume an area of acceptable sharpness - acceptable to whom? And those assumption are based on the circle of confusion, viewing distance, magnification.

Circle of confusion has been described as a group of photographers talking about depth of field:) but if you're interested, this link is a slightly more useful description.

Many years ago, a Ukranian camera manufacturer published DOF figures for their lenses that appeared to suggest that their lenses had much more DOF than lenses from other factories, the reality is just that they based their figures on a different COC...

And the use of digital has affected magnification, a lot of people now crop their images far more than they would have done with film.

What I'm saying here, in a long winded way, is that Hoppy is right - focus on the one bit that really must be pin sharp, and re-focus whenever there is even the slightest change to distance.
 
That's a good link on DoF and circle of confusion (y)

While the DoF standard is old and relates to prints, it is universally accepted and actually relates quite well to most on-screen images. As Garry says, the danger with digital is cropping (which effectively changes the sensor format and therefore the DoF calcs) and particularly viewing at 100% on a largish screen. If you do that, DoF is dramatically reduced and all calcs go straight out of the window.

BTW, you are getting some great captures - especially loving the two girls in red dresses. Just need to tighten up on the technical side. White backgrounds are not easy, though if you're doing a lot of that style (probably, punters love it) then consider a Lastolite HiLite background. Quite expensive, but easier to use and they save a lot of space in a small studio. Then take some time getting it set up really well (evenly lit, not too much over-exposure, flare controlled) and you're good to go.
 
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I'm only just got in from work and it's been a long day... so will reply more later after I re-read your replies

Garry it's a nef file I'm not sure if my email server will send it, I did shoot a small jpg with it.

In the linked thread and on flickr there is a per and post shot.


Thanks

Helen
 
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Helen,
Photographers have to send much larger files than this all the time.
You can download Dropbox and use it for free, or at least until you need to send seriously large files
 
I've got the raw image. I'm replying here because the answer may be useful to other people.

It isn't pin sharp but it is far better at 100% than it looks in this thead at much less magnification.

I think that the unsharpness, such as it is, is caused by a combination of
1. The lens not being the best
2. Lens flare.

There is unmistakable image degradation caused by overexposing the background. That same overexposure throws light straight at the lens, causing flare. A really good lens hood can help with this to a limited extent (I don't include the petal lens hood supplied with zoom lenses as "good", they do very little). Lens hoods really come into their own when the light heads towards the lens at an oblique angle, not when it is bouncing off a background and heading straight at it.

The answer is twofold.
1. Ignore all the rubbish to hear on the net about overexposing a white background by 2 stops, it needs to be a lot less than this. Light it evenly and 0.7 of a stop is plenty enough.
2. Mask off all unnecessary parts of the background, so that unwanted light isn't reflecting off of any more of the background than it needs to be

Doing these 2 things will reduce the flare dramatically, and improve colour saturation and contrast as well as the apparent sharpness.

Also, make sure that the lens is perfectly clean.

There isn't a great deal that you can do with this shot, the flare is there to stay, but you can avoid it in the future. Personally if I were you I would forget about white backgrounds completely until I had nailed everything else, they are just another complication.

But even with the flare, a little bit of USM would make it look sharp.

BTW, there is no camera shake and no diffraction limitation, it's mostly down to the flare.
 
Some very quick ones I took this evening on my way home
Upped the iso to 200 still 1/125 F8 105mm. pp just a small crop at the top nothing else

If you go full size around the eyes it's not bad, but go to the ear just a couple of inches back and it's soft ? everything forward is in focus ?


G test1 by HS-uk, on Flickr

iso 200 f8 50mm pp small crop nothing eles
Looks soft to me ?


gtest2 by HS-uk, on Flickr

setting and pp same as above

Looks soft to me ?

gtest3 by HS-uk, on Flickr


Edit, I reset the fine tune back to 0
 
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I've got the raw image. I'm replying here because the answer may be useful to other people.

It isn't pin sharp but it is far better at 100% than it looks in this thead at much less magnification.

I think that the unsharpness, such as it is, is caused by a combination of
1. The lens not being the best
2. Lens flare.

There is unmistakable image degradation caused by overexposing the background. That same overexposure throws light straight at the lens, causing flare. A really good lens hood can help with this to a limited extent (I don't include the petal lens hood supplied with zoom lenses as "good", they do very little). Lens hoods really come into their own when the light heads towards the lens at an oblique angle, not when it is bouncing off a background and heading straight at it.

The answer is twofold.
1. Ignore all the rubbish to hear on the net about overexposing a white background by 2 stops, it needs to be a lot less than this. Light it evenly and 0.7 of a stop is plenty enough.
2. Mask off all unnecessary parts of the background, so that unwanted light isn't reflecting off of any more of the background than it needs to be

Doing these 2 things will reduce the flare dramatically, and improve colour saturation and contrast as well as the apparent sharpness.

Also, make sure that the lens is perfectly clean.

There isn't a great deal that you can do with this shot, the flare is there to stay, but you can avoid it in the future. Personally if I were you I would forget about white backgrounds completely until I had nailed everything else, they are just another complication.

But even with the flare, a little bit of USM would make it look sharp.

BTW, there is no camera shake and no diffraction limitation, it's mostly down to the flare.

Thanks Garry, I always use a hood, I'll set up a colour background tomorrow and have another try but I do need the white background in shots so will work on that too

H
 
Thanks Garry, I always use a hood, I'll set up a colour background tomorrow and have another try but I do need the white background in shots so will work on that too

H

You've got serious flare issues. An ordinary lens hood* will do very little - they're designed for full-frame, so that's not optimum for starters on a crop format camera. And they can only ever work at max efficiency at the shortest focal length on a zoom.

You need to get those poly-board screens, something like this - dead cheap, cut them to whatever size you like http://www.wickes.co.uk/polystyrene-50mmx1200x24m/invt/210824/ If you position them carefully, you can control both flare and 'wrap' that is a key component of the white background look. Put them between the subject and camera to control only flare; put them between the subject and background to control both flare and also adjust wrap. One advantage of pure white backgrounds is you can put screens etc right up to the edge of the subject, within the image area, then knock it back to white in post processing. There is a lot more to it than just blasting the background with light.

Subjective comment on the lighting, I prefer one biggish catchlight in the eyes rather than two. Easy enough to clone it out in post processing, but the lighting is very flat, almost shadowless, with too much fill-in. Just an opinion, but I think it would look better with a reflector for shadow fill-in rather than another light, though with such charming subjects as that you've got a head start :)

*This is a brilliant lens hood - even if I say so myself. Scroll down the page. Very efficient, and it zooms with the lens :D http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=463691 But still not as effective as screens.
 
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Some very quick ones I took this evening on my way home
Upped the iso to 200 still 1/125 F8 105mm. pp just a small crop at the top nothing else

If you go full size around the eyes it's not bad, but go to the ear just a couple of inches back and it's soft ? everything forward is in focus ?

All the advice from Garry and Hoppy is spot on.

However also do bear in mind that as you zoom in (you mentioned 105mm above) you reduce your depth of field even when shooting at smaller apertures. I would expect a good portrait shot to have an out of focus ear at 105mm having focussed accurately on the eye, even when shooting at f/8 or f/11. To me that would be a good thing on a single person portrait, but not a lot of use for a group of three rows of people.. So pick your subjects, lenses and focal lengths correctly :)
 
Gary, which usm are you meaning?

But even with the flare, a little bit of USM would make it look sharp.
In Photoshop, Unsharp Masking

Of course, there are other ways of sharpening too, but some sharpening is needed
 
Out of interest, how many lights are you using on the subjects ?
 
If you go full size around the eyes it's not bad, but go to the ear just a couple of inches back and it's soft ? everything forward is in focus ?
Welcome to depth of field....

95% (OK, maybe an exaggeration) of people don't understand that depth of field is dependent on how big you print the image. Zoom in to 100% and you get a much, much shallower depth of field than any of the online calculators will tell you. Why? because depth of field is about what we perceive to be in and out of focus. Gary said above that there is only a single plane that is in focus - everything closer or further away is out of focus to a greater or lesser extent. Depth of field calculations assume you are printing to (about) 10"x8" and viewing from around 12" away. Zoom to 100% on a computer screen and that's like printing to 60"x40" and viewing from 24" away. You will see things as more out of focus...
 
Hi all
Hoppy the 3 above were just a try for focus sharpness with a highier ISO.

Lens flare, the highlights on the background was massive.

Here was the set
The room is all white, without the flash a shot is black even with the model lights, adding bg lights at this point would just make blown worse ?
Lights are 300w

White muslin BG, no other lighting to that, just what came from the front lights.
White vinyl on floor

Girls 6ft from the BG.

100x100 soft box, right 45 and above, 2ft away from the girls.

Fill, Left white umbrella set to the lowest setting.

Both the girls and the BG were metering at f8.

Me 6ft from the Girls.

So why am I getting the overblown background and lens flare.

I'm not sure how poly boards would help with these shoots and lighting.

I have a large reflector I'll try instead of the 2nd light.

I'm trying to start with one light, As Garry as suggests in his vids.. the fill and worry about the bg after.

Love your home made hood if not the silver lol

H
 
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Welcome to depth of field....

95% (OK, maybe an exaggeration) of people don't understand that depth of field is dependent on how big you print the image. Zoom in to 100% and you get a much, much shallower depth of field than any of the online calculators will tell you. Why? because depth of field is about what we perceive to be in and out of focus. Gary said above that there is only a single plane that is in focus - everything closer or further away is out of focus to a greater or lesser extent. Depth of field calculations assume you are printing to (about) 10"x8" and viewing from around 12" away. Zoom to 100% on a computer screen and that's like printing to 60"x40" and viewing from 24" away. You will see things as more out of focus...

Then try at f11 as Hoppy said ?

H
 
Hi all
Hoppy the 3 above were just a try for focus sharpness with a highier ISO.

Lens flare, the highlights on the background was massive.

Here was the set
The room is all white, without the flash a shot is black even with the model lights, adding bg lights at this point would just make blown worse ?
Lights are 300w

White muslin BG, no other lighting to that, just what came from the front lights.
White vinyl on floor

Girls 6ft from the BG.

100x100 soft box, right 45 and above, 2ft away from the girls.

Fill, Left white umbrella set to the lowest setting.

Both the girls and the BG were metering at f8.

Me 6ft from the Girls.

So why am I getting the overblown background and lens flare.

I'm not sure how poly boards would help with these shoots and lighting.

I have a large reflector I'll try instead of the 2nd light.

I'm trying to start with one light, As Garry as suggests in his vids.. the fill and worry about the bg after.

Love your home made hood if not the silver lol

H

Try without the reflector, one light with your 100x100 softbox in front of the subject but just above them, but enough to get the catchlight in the eyes, most of the time when i use my Hi-lite, that is all i use, albeit an Octobox
 
Then try at f11 as Hoppy said ?
Yes.

Take a number of pictures of a static object at increasing f-number (and increasing flash power to compensate). If you start with the lens wide open, you will see the sharpness of the image increase, plateau and then fall off. What you will also see that depth of field increases the larger the f-number. The sweet spot is achieved when you have the largest depth of field with the image still being acceptably sharp.

If you can't get enough depth of field, your only recourse is to use a shorter focal length lens and get in closer (or use a smaller sensored camera with an equivalent focal length lens on).
 
Can I give POV as someone still learning.

To find the focal length I need to fill the frame I use this,
Focal Length = 0.75 x Sensor Size x Subject Distance / Subject Size.
Based on the D7000 it would be 0.75*23.6*6\4(foot)=26.55 mm focal length.
Based on f8 @27mm focal length the depth of field would be

Near limit 4.3 ft
Far limit 9.92 ft
Total 5.63 ft
In front of subject 1.7 ft (30%)
Behind subject 3.92 ft (70%)

As for the lens flare I would have the umbrella behind me to stop light bouncing back into the lens.
On the metering side if you are doing the girls @8 then do the backgroud @f11 to get white.
If any of the pros say I'm wrong with what I wrote I will delete it so not to confuse anyone
 
Can I give POV as someone still learning.

....

Near limit 4.3 ft
Far limit 9.92 ft
Total 5.63 ft
In front of subject 1.7 ft (30%)
Behind subject 3.92 ft (70%)
And you have just done the classic "mistake" which is to quote a DoF calculator. DoF also depends on how big you print the image. These figures will hold if you are viewing a 10x8 from a foot or so but will not hold if you are printing poster size and viewing closely (or viewing 100% on a computer screen). In that case, you will see far less depth of field than you would expect...

Have a look at: http://photo.andysheen.co.uk/technical/depth-of-field-and-what-affects-it-explained/ I've tried to explain this without the maths (which turns a lot of people off understanding it).
 
Just some comments on the above.

The DoF standard is as Andy says, based on a 10in print when viewed from a distance equal to the diagonal, ie 12in. However, this standard holds good for any size of print so long as the viewing distance is maintained as the length of the diagonal.

DoF does not change with focal length, so long as the subject is framed the same size in the viewfinder. Some of the advice you are getting on that above is wrong and f/8 should be fine for a solo head shot - just needs accurate focusing. You need more DoF for couples and groups, but that is mostly self-adjusting as you will need to make them all smaller in the frame (move back, use a wider lens) so DoF naturally increases. Check your DoF here http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Other things change with longer lenses though, like perspective and field of view, ie the amount of background included in the shot. You will get less background, and therefore reduce the potential for flare, with a longer lens. If you have a UV protection filter fitted, take it off - filters will increase flare a lot in this situation.

I'm not understanding your lighting/exposure. There is a lot of light on the background. If it was as you describe, ie with no background lights, the background would be grey, and not reading anything like the same as the f/8 subject exposure :thinking: Working in a small white room will lighten it a lot from the standard inverse-square-law fall-off (which would be something like 2-3 stops drop in that situation) but if that is indeed the case then you need to think about those black drapes we talked about previously as you will have zero lighting control without.

The poly-board screens are to shade the lens, blocking all that bright light bouncing off the background straight into the lens. They are useful for all sorts of things in a studio (eg as big reflectors, and controlling wrap) but here they would just be used as giant 'flags'. You could use anything - black card or paper attached to the background, that kind of thing. I often use a sheet of black A2 foamboard with a rectangle cut from the centre that is held on a stand a few feet in front of the camera - that works very well indeed (and you can 'zoom' it to adjust coverage by changing the distance) but that's really not practical except for static subjects.
 
The DoF standard is as Andy says, based on a 10in print when viewed from a distance equal to the diagonal, ie 12in. However, this standard holds good for any size of print so long as the viewing distance is maintained as the length of the diagonal.
Yup. Forgot to mention that...

DoF does not change with focal length, so long as the subject is framed the same size in the viewfinder.
Umm.. Unless I'm missing something, it does. Dropping f8/50mm on a 7D with 10ft subject distance into DoFmaster gives:

Subject distance 10 ft

Depth of field
Near limit 8.46 ft
Far limit 12.2 ft
Total 3.77 ft

Whilst 5ft at 25mm with everything else the same gives:

Subject distance 5 ft

Depth of field
Near limit 3.66 ft
Far limit 7.87 ft
Total 4.2 ft
 
You have both said I'm wrong by using the DOF calculator then Richard is putting a link to it and Andy is quoting it !!!!!!! Make your minds up lads......

Is the 10x8 based on full frame ? and if so for mine on a 3:2 aspect ratio would it be 12x10 ?
 
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Girls 6ft from the BG.

100x100 soft box, right 45 and above, 2ft away from the girls.

Fill, Left white umbrella set to the lowest setting.

Both the girls and the BG were metering at f8.

Me 6ft from the Girls.

So why am I getting the overblown background and lens flare.

With the subject being 6ft from the background, I am puzzled as to how both the background and the subject can both be metering at F8, would have expected the background to be lower and darker than what you have achieved:thinking: So some extra light must be getting onto the background - how are you metering them both?
 
Yup. Forgot to mention that...

Umm.. Unless I'm missing something, it does. Dropping f8/50mm on a 7D with 10ft subject distance into DoFmaster gives:

Subject distance 10 ft

Depth of field
Near limit 8.46 ft
Far limit 12.2 ft
Total 3.77 ft

Whilst 5ft at 25mm with everything else the same gives:

Subject distance 5 ft

Depth of field
Near limit 3.66 ft
Far limit 7.87 ft
Total 4.2 ft

Yes, that's strictly correct, but the difference is insignificant, about 10% or 5in - a fraction of a stop. Compared with changing the 50mm lens just one stop from f/8 to f/11, the DoF goes up by over 40% or 21in (to 5.52ft).

The DoF increase you've quoted by reducing focal length is nothing compared to the changes to both perspective and field of view that would make, and both those things are important in the OP's situation. A shorter lens would only make things worse.

And compare a more realistic scenario to the OP's (taking the example I used at the top of the thread) changing from a 100mm lens f/8 at 6ft, and a 50mm lens f/8 at 3ft. The shift in DoF there would be zero (actually it's 2mm).
 
Yes, that's strictly correct, but the difference is insignificant, about 10% or 5in - a fraction of a stop. Compared with changing the 50mm lens just one stop from f/8 to f/11, the DoF goes up by over 40% or 21in (to 5.52ft).

The DoF increase you've quoted by reducing focal length is nothing compared to the changes to both perspective and field of view that would make, and both those things are important in the OP's situation. A shorter lens would only make things worse.

And compare a more realistic scenario to the OP's (taking the example I used at the top of the thread) changing from a 100mm lens f/8 at 6ft, and a 50mm lens f/8 at 3ft. The shift in DoF there would be zero (actually it's 2mm).

So what lens would you suggest in the space I have, I'd love to go longer but don't feel I have the space

I'm sort of stuck between 18 to maybe 140?
I keep thinking the tamron 28-75mm or 17-50mm

I think the 35mm1.8 would be too wide so the 50 or 85 1.8 ?


I'm thinking I'll mast off the 100x2 with cinefoil to maybe 60x60 ? until I get a grid

May also try the cinefoil on the hood ?
 
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So what lens would you suggest in the space I have, I'd love to go longer but don't feel I have the space

I'm sort of stuck between 18 to maybe 140?
I keep thinking the tamron 28-75mm or 17-50mm

I think the 35mm1.8 would be too wide so the 50 or 85 1.8 ?

Portraiture is about distance rather than lens. My ideal is about 5-6ft for a solo adult. That's kinda nice and intimate, but not intrusive, then choose focal length to suit. Something around that distance anyway, but not less than 4ft as you'll start to get noticeable perspective distortion. I'll also happily go back a bit, maybe 10ft, if that makes it technically easier with lighting etc.

Are you understanding the field of view thing, with longer lenses cutting out more background? Since your main issue here is flare, longer should be better, but the key thing to change there is screening off the background to prevent an excessive amount of light bouncing off the white background directly into the lens. How that's achieved in practical terms is up to you, but that's the first thing to address.

Second thing is to get those black drapes sorted around the walls, to give you more lighting control, but all this stuff about lenses and depth of field is frankly secondary. You're fine as you are there, if you just tighten up on focusing technique.

I'm thinking I'll mast off the 100x2 with cinefoil to maybe 60x60 ? until I get a grid

Why?

May also try the cinefoil on the hood ?

Well maybe, but if you're thinking along the lines of my Weetabix hood, be very careful. It took me ages to work out the exact optimum size and you'll find it intruding very slightly into the image, making the sides fractionally darker without you noticing. This will also change with focusing distance and aperture, as well as focal length.

You seem to be keen to try everything except the big screens, which should be the first thing to do! And it'll probably be all you need to sort the flare issues.
 
An admission of my stupidity

Why the hell am I hanging white backgrounds on a white wall


*cos you have them Helen*:bonk:
 
Portraiture is about distance rather than lens. My ideal is about 5-6ft for a solo adult. That's kinda nice and intimate, but not intrusive, then choose focal length to suit. Something around that distance anyway, but not less than 4ft as you'll start to get noticeable perspective distortion. I'll also happily go back a bit, maybe 10ft, if that makes it technically easier with lighting etc.

Are you understanding the field of view thing, with longer lenses cutting out more background? Since your main issue here is flare, longer should be better, but the key thing to change there is screening off the background to prevent an excessive amount of light bouncing off the white background directly into the lens. How that's achieved in practical terms is up to you, but that's the first thing to address.

Second thing is to get those black drapes sorted around the walls, to give you more lighting control, but all this stuff about lenses and depth of field is frankly secondary. You're fine as you are there, if you just tighten up on focusing technique.



Why?



Well maybe, but if you're thinking along the lines of my Weetabix hood, be very careful. It took me ages to work out the exact optimum size and you'll find it intruding very slightly into the image, making the sides fractionally darker without you noticing. This will also change with focusing distance and aperture, as well as focal length.

You seem to be keen to try everything except the big screens, which should be the first thing to do! And it'll probably be all you need to sort the flare issues.

Why... well it's the main light spilling heavy on to the background

I was in the builders merchants this morning, 8'x4'x2" £10 each but they don't have any till Monday

I'm really not sure how I'm going to set them up.

H
 
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I was in the builders merchants this morning, 8'x4'x2" £10 each but they don't have any till Monday

I'm really not sure how I'm going to set them up.

H

(y)

They'll be more useful/versatile with one side black. Either matt spray paint them, or cover with black paper. Ideally, get a Manfrotto SuperClamp or similar and attach to a lighting stand. A lot of people just lean them against whatever is to hand, like a chair, or instruct their VALS :D

They're very light, but maybe 1in thick rather than 2in? Not sure, see what you think. I don't have any here at the moment and I can't remember what the ones I used before were!
 
Why... well it's the main light spilling heavy on to the background

I was in the builders merchants this morning, 8'x4'x2" £10 each but they don't have any till Monday

I'm really not sure how I'm going to set them up.

H

Oh right. Not sure that would help much, since the main light is pointing more or less straight at the background isn't it? Masking it off won't do anything, though a grid would reduce spill which certainly seems to be an issue here.

Things I'm unclear about: do you want a pure white background or not? And either way, if your main light is 2ft from the subject and meters f/8, how come the background that's a further 6ft behind also reads f/8 with no additional light on it? Bit of a puzzle that one. Is your fill-light and shoot-through brolly by any chance? I guess it's possible that in a small white room with two largish modifiers spilling light everywhere that you've just ended up filling the whole room to the same brightness. If so I'm surprised; maybe Garry has some comment on that. But even if that's only half true (and it's certainly partly true for sure) you need to get those dark drapes sorted before you'll be able to attempt anything even modestly creative or low-key.
 
I don't have a specific answer, but a few other things to consider.

If you have a filter on the lens, remove it.

The "focus point" you see in the camera is just a "visual representation" of the focus point. It may not be exactly aligned, but it should be very close.

AF is dependent on a little mirror and if it's not perfectly aligned off-center focus points can have an error (usually above/below middle). The central focus point is usually the most accurate.

MF is diopter dependent (unless using LV).

With shallow DOF focus and recompose can cause notable errors in focus.

DOF is affected 2x more by FL and subject distance than it is by aperture. Sometimes the best way to significantly increase DOF is to compose a bit looser by working from a little further or using a wider lens.

I use a ROT to ballpark DOF. A 100mm lens on a FF camera at f/11 and 10ft has a DOF of ~2ft (f/16 for DX). Knowing this:
Every half/doubling of FL quadruples/quarters DOF (shorter is more)
Every half/doubling of distance quarters/quadruples DOF (shorter is less)
Every half doubling of aperture halves/doubles DOF (wider is less)

So, to make things easy, lets say you're using the 100mm on DX from 5ft at f/8 . It's half the working distance which makes DOF 6" (1/4 of 2'), and it's half the aperture which makes it a 3" DOF.
To get it back up to 6" you would have to stop down to f/16 requiring more light or iso, and pushing diffraction. Or you could just step back to 7.5ft (not a lot looser), or zoom out to 75mm (also not a lot looser). But you have to accept the looser composition. If you step back and also zoom in for the same composition the DOF will not change.

**This is just a ROT to have an idea of how I'm affecting an image, it's more accurate for FF than it is for DX.
 
I don't have a specific answer, but a few other things to consider.

If you have a filter on the lens, remove it.

The "focus point" you see in the camera is just a "visual representation" of the focus point. It may not be exactly aligned, but it should be very close.

AF is dependent on a little mirror and if it's not perfectly aligned off-center focus points can have an error (usually above/below middle). The central focus point is usually the most accurate.

MF is diopter dependent (unless using LV).

With shallow DOF focus and recompose can cause notable errors in focus.

DOF is affected 2x more by FL and subject distance than it is by aperture. Sometimes the best way to significantly increase DOF is to compose a bit looser by working from a little further or using a wider lens.

I use a ROT to ballpark DOF. A 100mm lens on a FF camera at f/11 and 10ft has a DOF of ~2ft (f/16 for DX). Knowing this:
Every half/doubling of FL quadruples/quarters DOF (shorter is more)
Every half/doubling of distance quarters/quadruples DOF (shorter is less)
Every half doubling of aperture halves/doubles DOF (wider is less)

So, to make things easy, lets say you're using the 100mm on DX from 5ft at f/8 . It's half the working distance which makes DOF 6" (1/4 of 2'), and it's half the aperture which makes it a 3" DOF.
To get it back up to 6" you would have to stop down to f/16 requiring more light or iso, and pushing diffraction. Or you could just step back to 7.5ft (not a lot looser), or zoom out to 75mm (also not a lot looser). But you have to accept the looser composition. If you step back and also zoom in for the same composition the DOF will not change.

**This is just a ROT to have an idea of how I'm affecting an image, it's more accurate for FF than it is for DX.

This I find very clear and helpful

Answers a lot, I'll print that out.

Thanks you
H
 
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Oh right. Not sure that would help much, since the main light is pointing more or less straight at the background isn't it? Masking it off won't do anything, though a grid would reduce spill which certainly seems to be an issue here.

Things I'm unclear about: do you want a pure white background or not? And either way, if your main light is 2ft from the subject and meters f/8, how come the background that's a further 6ft behind also reads f/8 with no additional light on it? Bit of a puzzle that one. Is your fill-light and shoot-through brolly by any chance? I guess it's possible that in a small white room with two largish modifiers spilling light everywhere that you've just ended up filling the whole room to the same brightness. If so I'm surprised; maybe Garry has some comment on that. But even if that's only half true (and it's certainly partly true for sure) you need to get those dark drapes sorted before you'll be able to attempt anything even modestly creative or low-key.

Metering at the same.
I was in so much of a rush as the girls had to go and I wanted to get home, I could be wrong but the highlights on the background were very blown,

Yes a shoot-through.

At this point, I was not worrying about the background being white or perfect, it was about the focus.

I do think the whole room it like a big lightbox and that's as you say, I need to dampen down.

H
 
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Oh right. Not sure that would help much, since the main light is pointing more or less straight at the background isn't it? Masking it off won't do anything, though a grid would reduce spill which certainly seems to be an issue here.

Things I'm unclear about: do you want a pure white background or not? And either way, if your main light is 2ft from the subject and meters f/8, how come the background that's a further 6ft behind also reads f/8 with no additional light on it? Bit of a puzzle that one. Is your fill-light and shoot-through brolly by any chance? I guess it's possible that in a small white room with two largish modifiers spilling light everywhere that you've just ended up filling the whole room to the same brightness. If so I'm surprised; maybe Garry has some comment on that. But even if that's only half true (and it's certainly partly true for sure) you need to get those dark drapes sorted before you'll be able to attempt anything even modestly creative or low-key.
My comment is that it can't happen like that, that nice Mr. Newton explained why, and and there's simply no way that the immutable laws of physics can have taken a holiday, despite the weather:) There's some light hitting the background here that we don't know about, there's no other possible explanation.

Poor Helen is being criticised about her poor lighting. OK, it is poor, and the flare has created most of the apparent unsharpness, but she is actually asking about the perceived focus problem - which as I have already explained, is actually much less obvious on the raw image she sent me than on the smaller version that she posted in the other thread.

Helen, take Hoppy's advice on avoiding the flare. And take his advice on using just one light for now, life is difficult enough without using more lights than you need.

The poor souls who have talked themselves into coming on my lighting masterclass in a couple of weeks will be surprised at how many lights I have, but they will also be surprised at how few I actually use, most of the time, for most subjects.

There is only ever 1 key light, because there is only one sun. That key light does something like 90% of the work. Any other lights just add a glint here, fill in a shadow a bit there, add a bit of an edge somewhere else etc - your fill light isn't a fill light at all, it's a second key light. It's doing the opposite of what it should be doing.

You've been given some good advice on depth of field, but some of the advice is wrong, or is over complicated. If you want to really understand depth of field you need to have a fair understanding of physics, it isn't as simple as the charts and calculators make it seem. Personally, I keep a DOF calculator in my head, but to keep it simple, I think in terms of effective aperture (the size of the lens opening) not f/, because effective aperture is constant regardless of F (focal length) - f/ isn't.

For now, just shoot your portraits at f/8, focus on the eyes and don't worry if the ears are a bit out. Don't go smaller than f/11 on your camera, because you will lose sharpness due to diffraction limitation. Don't go (much) larger than f/8 because your lens probably isn't capable at larger apertures, and anyway it takes skill and a bit of luck to nail the focussing at large apertures. You need to stop running and start walking, slowly - there's a lot to learn and it makes sense to walk before you can run, and to concentrate on just one thing at a time.

Coming back to my lighting masterclass, I will probably take some shots at f/2.8 with a F200 lens, where the DOF will be virtually non-existent, and on a camera with much larger sensor than yours - but that will be with manual focussing with a lens that actually delivers at f/2.8, and probably 3 out of every 4 shots will be out of focus. You don't need that hassle.
 
My comment is that it can't happen like that, that nice Mr. Newton explained why, and and there's simply no way that the immutable laws of physics can have taken a holiday, despite the weather:) There's some light hitting the background here that we don't know about, there's no other possible explanation.

Poor Helen is being criticised about her poor lighting. OK, it is poor, and the flare has created most of the apparent unsharpness, but she is actually asking about the perceived focus problem - which as I have already explained, is actually much less obvious on the raw image she sent me than on the smaller version that she posted in the other thread.

Helen, take Hoppy's advice on avoiding the flare. And take his advice on using just one light for now, life is difficult enough without using more lights than you need.

The poor souls who have talked themselves into coming on my lighting masterclass in a couple of weeks will be surprised at how many lights I have, but they will also be surprised at how few I actually use, most of the time, for most subjects.

There is only ever 1 key light, because there is only one sun. That key light does something like 90% of the work. Any other lights just add a glint here, fill in a shadow a bit there, add a bit of an edge somewhere else etc - your fill light isn't a fill light at all, it's a second key light. It's doing the opposite of what it should be doing.

You've been given some good advice on depth of field, but some of the advice is wrong, or is over complicated. If you want to really understand depth of field you need to have a fair understanding of physics, it isn't as simple as the charts and calculators make it seem. Personally, I keep a DOF calculator in my head, but to keep it simple, I think in terms of effective aperture (the size of the lens opening) not f/, because effective aperture is constant regardless of F (focal length) - f/ isn't.

For now, just shoot your portraits at f/8, focus on the eyes and don't worry if the ears are a bit out. Don't go smaller than f/11 on your camera, because you will lose sharpness due to diffraction limitation. Don't go (much) larger than f/8 because your lens probably isn't capable at larger apertures, and anyway it takes skill and a bit of luck to nail the focussing at large apertures. You need to stop running and start walking, slowly - there's a lot to learn and it makes sense to walk before you can run, and to concentrate on just one thing at a time.

Coming back to my lighting masterclass, I will probably take some shots at f/2.8 with a F200 lens, where the DOF will be virtually non-existent, and on a camera with much larger sensor than yours - but that will be with manual focussing with a lens that actually delivers at f/2.8, and probably 3 out of every 4 shots will be out of focus. You don't need that hassle.

You are right Garry, this took a sharp left into lighting when it was about focus
But anyway, the lighting and DoF are helpful

I am trying to start with one light
Today was just to hot to be indoors so took some outside shots that are in the people and portraits forum
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=494541

| did fancy coming up to your class but have other commitments.
H
 
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