FILM Photographer of the Year 2018 - Thoughts and Ideas

[Carl Hall]

Now that the end is in sight for the 2017 FPOTY competition, it’s probably about the right sort of time to start ironing out the details or changes for next year.

2017 Feedback
As this was the first time I’ve ever ran anything like this, everything was a bit of a stab in the dark and I pretty much learned on the job as it progressed. If you have any feedback or comments on how you think the year has been, what has gone well, what hasn’t gone well etc, then please post away so that I can improve for this year!

Organiser
I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do it again for a second year, but I think I’m happy to steer the ship again for 2018 if no one has any problems with it? If anyone would prefer to run it this year then now is the time to speak up and volunteer

The only two things that I’m going to insist on is a simple points system (because I’m thick) and that there is zero bending of the rules this year, including deadline extensions (because it causes more issues than it’s worth).

Themes
So, on to the first item of business- the themes. I like Andy’s recent idea that we can all suggest 3 or 4 themes, which I’ll then put in a proverbial hat and pick out 12 at random. The issue with this is that I could suggest a really bizarre theme like “goats” and then it could get randomly selected to be a theme without being voted on. We could always suggest the themes and then vote on the long list, similar to this year.

This year the themes were randomly placed throughout the year based purely on a number given by a random number generator. I think this worked mostly, but there were a few that could have been better placed. I’m leaning towards a mostly random placement next year but with a manual placement for anything that’s seasonal, so we might get a tree theme in late autumn where it belongs!

Points
I think this might be the biggest cause for complaint with the current system, so it needs a change. As I said, I want to keep this simple. I suggest simply awarding points down further from the top 5 that we have now. I opted to do top 5 last year as I didn’t have a clue how many people would enter! Now that we’re getting 15+ entrants, I think 12 points for 1st place working down to 1 point for 12th place.

Under the current system, 32% of people are on zero points, and the top four competitors have almost half of all points (47.6%, 144/302). If I retrospectively apply this pointing system to the 2017 competition for comparison, only three competitors are on zero points, and they have all entered 1 or 2 themes.

A simple pointing system of 12 down to 1 based on place is what I think would be best as it’s basic and easy to gauge how many points you need to move up the ladder, but obviously this is open to debate if you have a better way (as long as it’s simple!)

Votes
This year we all got three votes to use to pick the best photos for the month. Sometimes this worked fine, but other times we ended up with a lot of people on the same points which ended with a lot of tied places. If we’re going to give points down to 12th place then we definitely need to give more votes to define the top 12. I’m thinking that we should have 1/3 of the number of entries as votes, rounded down. So for example if there are 12 entries then we get 4 votes, if there are 17 entries then we get 5, and if there are 19 then we get 6.

Start Date
Rather than limiting each theme to photos taken that month, this year we allowed the photos to be taken at any time after December 26th when the themes were announced. I think this worked well for the most part as it gave people a lot longer to plan and take entries before the deadline. The only month where this suffered was January where we only had approx. 5 weeks. I propose that the themes are unveiled on 1st December 2017, and any photos taken after this date are eligible for FPOTY 2018. Obviously this turns it into a 13 month which isn’t ideal, but I think it needs to be done.

Prizes
We were lucky enough to be donated a prize to be given to first place in 2017 (which I still have stored away safely!). Currently we don’t have anything in place for 2018. I did think maybe we could have a (voluntary) whip round and get a couple quid from people, but that seemed like it would get messy as it might not be everyone’s cup of tea. Perhaps there are some unwanted gifts that someone would be willing to donate? I’m not sure what the views are here, so I think it needs some discussion.

Time Frame
I want to iron out the major problems and suggested improvements, but I don’t want to go round in circles arguing everything to death lol. If we can get all the changes wrapped up by the 15th November, then the themes can be suggested by the 22nd edit- 20th, and voted on by the 27th, ready to start on the 1st December.

So now that I’ve finished waffling on for so long, it’s time for your thoughts

 

[srichards]

Theme ideas:

Earth
Air
Fire
Water

Seven Deadly Sins: either any of them in one month or one per month. If you used all 7 that's quite a chunk. Points lost for anyone not entering anything in the Sloth month though

Agree with everything you've suggested

 

[Mrs Snap]

Personally, I'd prefer the themes to be picked randomly from a hat rather than voted on. It seems to me that a lot of you filmies have quite similar preferred photographic subjects hence those got the most votes and were included in this years competition. I don't want to sound like I'm moaning, but very few of the subjects I voted for got enough votes to be included. If you do something similar this year, aren't you just going to end up with similar categories again? Why not try to mix it up a bit and possibly have some subjects where people are out of their comfort zone?

 

[FishyFish]

Hi Chris. I think you've done a great job with it this year, thanks, so no qualms with you continuing.

Regarding points - will they be awarded according to votes, or placings? e.g. if several people tie for a place, will that affect the points awarded to those lower down?

Given that this year we had January as an open theme, I don't think it was too much of a problem that photo's had to be taken within 2017, but I don't mind some leeway for the first month's entry next time - especially if it's not an open theme.

My theme suggestions:

• Vintage
  
• Ascending/Descending
• Decay
• Wet

I like the idea of being able to vote on the final list of themes again - it should naturally filter out the ones that people feel they have little chance of achieving and hopefully mean more entries each month.

 

[RaglanSurf]

Agreed about the points thing, there are people that have entered throughout the year and got a good number of votes and still haven’t got any points which can be a bit demoralising. So with that in mind how about we adopt something along the lines of the Formula 1 points system?

Points are awarded as follows: 1st place - 25 points; 2nd -18; 3rd - 15; 4th -12; 5th - 10; 6th - 8; 7th - 6; 8th - 4; 9th - 2; 10th - 1.
If drivers are tied on points, positions are decided on results countback. Wins are compared, and the driver with most wins is classified ahead.

 

[RaglanSurf]

Points lost for anyone not entering anything in the Sloth month though

Brilliant!

 

[Mrs Snap]

I like the idea of being able to vote on the final list of themes again - it should naturally filter out the ones that people feel they have little chance of achieving and hopefully mean more entries each month.

That really just illustrates my point as it potentially keeps the majority within their comfort zones again. I've entered every month this year despite having little interest (and therefore little chance of achieving) in quite a few of the subjects so I don't really see why the themes need to be selected by vote rather than random. Why not have some subjects that are a bit left-field or themes that make you think or look at things in a different way?

 

[excalibur2]

That really just illustrates my point as it potentially keeps the majority within their comfort zones again. I've entered every month this year despite having little interest (and therefore little chance of achieving) in quite a few of the subjects so I don't really see why the themes need to be selected by vote rather than random. Why not have some subjects that are a bit left-field or themes that make you think or look at things in a different way?

Well IMO it has to be in the comfort zone as I would think quite a few wont bother to enter if the themes are too difficult..e.g. infrared, moon, stars, macro etc

 

[RaglanSurf]

That really just illustrates my point as it potentially keeps the majority within their comfort zones again. I've entered every month this year despite having little interest (and therefore little chance of achieving) in quite a few of the subjects so I don't really see why the themes need to be selected by vote rather than random. Why not have some subjects that are a bit left-field or themes that make you think or look at things in a different way?

Despite my deep-seated fear of straying outside my comfort zone, this does have the potential to extend our ingrained photographic styles and habits. Much as I've mostly enjoyed this years themes I'd certainly be happy to have a go at more randomly generated and esoteric themes.

 

[RaglanSurf]

Well IMO it has to be in the comfort zone as I would think quite a few wont bother to enter if the themes are too difficult..e.g. infrared, moon, stars, macro etc

How hard is it to do a macro shot, or even a shot of the moon, these are both accessible to just about everybody. To be fair a macro shot of the moon maybe a little harder to achieve.
We stayed with pretty safe subjects last year so lets be brave and dip a toe in the deep end for a change.

 

[steveo_mcg]

Where is Donald with his negative waves, man.

 

[steveo_mcg]

I think I'm more likely to enter if its a little more left field than perscriptive, I do hope to do more next year....

 

[FishyFish]

That really just illustrates my point as it potentially keeps the majority within their comfort zones again. I've entered every month this year despite having little interest (and therefore little chance of achieving) in quite a few of the subjects so I don't really see why the themes need to be selected by vote rather than random. Why not have some subjects that are a bit left-field or themes that make you think or look at things in a different way?

I'm with you 100% on the themes being interesting and challenging (I don't think I voted for that many of this years' final subject choices myself), but there needs to be some intervention I feel or you could end up with something like Carl's "goats" example being randomly selecte and only get a small number of entries that month. I used to run a monthly photo comp on another forum many moons ago, a bit like New Old Film Challenge in that the winner would choose the next topic, and whenever someone chose a more obscure theme you'd see the number of entries plumet that month. We used to have rules to restrict topics from being too specialised too - e.g. macro, or the seaside or something, because it would limit people without the right gear or access to locations from entering.

It's getting the right balance between interesting and accessible I guess.

 

[simon ess]

Random weirdness please.

 

[excalibur2]

How hard is it to do a macro shot, or even a shot of the moon, these are both accessible to just about everybody. To be fair a macro shot of the moon maybe a little harder to achieve.
We stayed with pretty safe subjects last year so lets be brave and dip a toe in the deep end for a change.

Well I was thinking of a shot of the moon and not something that's in the picture, same for macro and not a "close-up"..also star trails (if you can get a clear night away from a city)...but then erm with F&Cs lateral thinking anything goes

 

[TheBigYin]

Why not have some subjects that are a bit left-field or themes that make you think or look at things in a different way?

When I was entering the "main" POTY years ago, I'd look at the subject list at the start of the year and go "oh FFS, that's 5 months that I haven't a chance with." Then I'd go away and think about it, then think some more, then I'd go and try something new - and - pretty much every time I'd get something that I was proud of for those months. Okay, sometimes it'd not be something that the masses "got" and sometimes I'd get the proverbial "nul pointe" - but the point is, it was those months that actually made me improve as a photographer.

So - I'd definitely like to see more "left field" stuff in there - and I'd love to see people "step up to the mark" and try something out of their little comfort zone...

one way of making the "topics" less prescriptive is to make the topic a "phrase" rather than a single word...

for example - "seven deadly sins" rather than the individual sin names - or "Acting the Goat" rather than "Goat" - "Byegones and Memories" rather than "Vintage".... It just opens things up more for creative interpretation (or, shoe-horning - to give it a slightly more disparaging name)

 

[Andysnap]

I think that some more left field themes are good and putting everyone's suggestions in a hat and randomly drawing them out is also fine with me with the proviso perhaps that the organiser is given a little leeway to either not put in someone's 'goat' suggestion or to redraw if 'goat' is drawn out. Im also happy for there to be some placement of themes to fit the time of year.
Voting, i agree, should be kept simple and either the very simple Carl suggestion (that is not meant to imply Carl is simple by the way ) or Nick's formula 1 voting idea seem like an improvement.
I have really enjoyed this year's comp and I think that anything we can do to improve it and keep it going is to be encouraged.

 

[excalibur2]

I think that some more left field themes are good and putting everyone's suggestions in a hat and randomly drawing them out is also fine with me with the proviso perhaps that the organiser is given a little leeway to either not put in someone's 'goat' suggestion or to redraw if 'goat' is drawn out. Im also happy for there to be some placement of themes to fit the time of year.
Voting, i agree, should be kept simple and either the very simple Carl suggestion (that is not meant to imply Carl is simple by the way ) or Nick's formula 1 voting idea seem like an improvement.
I have really enjoyed this year's comp and I think that anything we can do to improve it and keep it going is to be encouraged.

Well it's hard enough getting a winning shot for something simple that's a challenge in itself

 

[Mr Badger]

As this competition is for the film photographer of the year, perhaps the subjects should be chosen to test the all round ability of the photographer? This could be done by including subjects that would encourage everyone to stray outside their comfort zones; a bit of macro, night photography, abstract, landscape, street, sports, etc. With this in mind, I think a suite of carefully chosen topics may be better than just drawing topics randomly from a hat?

My suggestions to add to the mix:

After dark
Wildlife
Abstract and odd
Close-up
Street shots
Sports and games

 

[FishyFish]

The problem with certain specialist subjects - such as macro - is that they can be equipment dependent. I think all the subjects should be achievable by anyone with a film camera, whether they're using a £5 disposable, or a high-end SLR with a £500 lens.

 

[excalibur2]

As this competition is for the film photographer of the year, perhaps the subjects should be chosen to test the all round ability of the photographer? This could be done by including subjects that would encourage everyone to stray outside their comfort zones; a bit of macro, night photography, abstract, landscape, street, sports, etc. With this in mind, I think a suite of carefully chosen topics may be better than just drawing topics randomly from a hat?

My suggestions to add to the mix:

After dark
Wildlife
Abstract and odd
Close-up
Street shots
Sports and games

Well we can try anything and am sure over the years we would arrive at the best all round solution......the first clue to something not working is the number of entrants.

 

[ChrisR]

Personally, I'd prefer the themes to be picked randomly from a hat rather than voted on. It seems to me that a lot of you filmies have quite similar preferred photographic subjects hence those got the most votes and were included in this years competition. I don't want to sound like I'm moaning, but very few of the subjects I voted for got enough votes to be included. If you do something similar this year, aren't you just going to end up with similar categories again? Why not try to mix it up a bit and possibly have some subjects where people are out of their comfort zone?

I like the idea of challenging themes, but I do think straying too far out of the comfort zone is a problem. I suspect that one of the reasons for the failure of the 2016 FPOTY was my suggestion of Intentional Camera Movement as a theme!

Nevertheless, I do think themes with some creative interpretation possibilities (apart from mere shoe-horning out of desperation) are a good idea! I did most of a 52 when I first joined this forum, and faced with a theme like "Sin" does make you think!

The problem with certain specialist subjects - such as macro - is that they can be equipment dependent. I think all the subjects should be achievable by anyone with a film camera, whether they're using a £5 disposable, or a high-end SLR with a £500 lens.

When that came up in the main POTY in 2013, it was something like "macro or close-up". I think everyone on here could manage that, with perhaps a tenner spent on a screw-on macro lens.

My suggestions for slightly more challenging themes would include macro/closeup, still life, after dark, stranger portrait, street, animal life, abstract, tell a story...

 

[ChrisR]

Agreed about the points thing, there are people that have entered throughout the year and got a good number of votes and still haven’t got any points which can be a bit demoralising. So with that in mind how about we adopt something along the lines of the Formula 1 points system?

Points are awarded as follows: 1st place - 25 points; 2nd -18; 3rd - 15; 4th -12; 5th - 10; 6th - 8; 7th - 6; 8th - 4; 9th - 2; 10th - 1.
If drivers are tied on points, positions are decided on results countback. Wins are compared, and the driver with most wins is classified ahead.

I like this very much. The advantage over the simpler system Carl mentioned is that winning puts you ahead by more. Of course this might mean that a few would romp away with it, which also might be discouraging...

Maybe I should try it on this year's results...

 

[Mr Badger]

The problem with certain specialist subjects - such as macro - is that they can be equipment dependent. I think all the subjects should be achievable by anyone with a film camera, whether they're using a £5 disposable, or a high-end SLR with a £500 lens.

That's just defeatist talk!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFgg9zYzCYk

I'd agree with not wanting to make things too challenging so it puts everyone off entering, but most techniques are fairly easy to research via the internet, and cheap (or free) to work around. How a shot was achieved could be explained in the text submitted with the photo entry, to hopefully earn some extra votes?

 

[Carl Hall]

I do think I prefer the random themes idea as the whole reason I like entering the FPOTY comp is to be pushed to take photos of things I wouldn't normally. I think if you're creative enough with your interpretation then you don't need to be restricted by your location or equipment. I am sad that there won't be a goat theme though!

If this is the route that we take then most people are going to need to amend their posts... We want 3-4 suggestions each, and so far everyone's given between 4 and 7! If everyone could edit their posts and whittle them down to 4 each, that would be grand

I'm happy with the F1 system if that's the consensus. I've applied both methods to this years results and both seem to have the effect that we're after- that we don't end up with a lot of people on zero points. They both massively change the too half a dozen rows of the table as well, with some big moves (the main one being that I drop like a stone )

 

[RaglanSurf]

Maybe I should try it on this year's results...

Good idea Chris it could be interesting.

I do of course make this suggestion with from a not altogether altruistic position as I have finished just out of the points a few times this year

 

[dmb]

Regarding Points

... something along the lines of the Formula 1 points system?

Points are awarded as follows: 1st place - 25 points; 2nd -18; 3rd - 15; 4th -12; 5th - 10; 6th - 8; 7th - 6; 8th - 4; 9th - 2; 10th - 1.
If drivers are tied on points, positions are decided on results countback. Wins are compared, and the driver with most wins is classified ahead.

.. Of course this might mean that a few would romp away with it, which also might be discouraging...

Maybe I should try it on this year's results...

As in F1 after a few good races the leaders can coast and the also rans can never catch up ( the actual phraseology overheard from a neighbouring workshop in the pits was not repeatable in polite company). The idea of linear points 10 to 1 (or douze á nul point) would tend to keep the leaders on their toes. The results countback system for tied positions might work but favours the occasional flash of brilliance over the steady plodder, but better than sawing up the trophy.

Regarding Themes

While I think I could live with 'Goats' there might be some suggested ideas that are thrown in to a random picking that just will not run. Thinning out suggested themes before the random pick by voting FOR those we like might give us blandness, how about trimming from the other end and voting AGAINST a limited number of the suggested themes and say more than 2 black balls throws it out? The approved but unused themes can get recycled into the selection for the next year.

Votes

Using more votes on the month's submissions and increasing the number of votes according to submissions seems workable and should help encourage those who may not get as many as others.

My Suggested Themes

I'll put my thinking cap on for those and get back to you.

 

[Mr Badger]

Ok, here's my 4 suggestions for the cut, I won't be offended if no one else wants them:

After dark
Abstract and odd
Close-up or macro
Street shots

 

[FishyFish]

That's just defeatist talk!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFgg9zYzCYk

I'd agree with not wanting to make things too challenging so it puts everyone off entering, but most techniques are fairly easy to research via the internet, and cheap (or free) to work around. How a shot was achieved could be explained in the text submitted with the photo entry, to hopefully earn some extra votes?

I spent lots of time with macro last year and as a result I've havea dedicated macro lens, a set of extension tubes, AND a reversal ring, so I'm fine for macro shots . My point is what if someone thinks they'd like to take part but only has a 35mm compact with no filter thread? Sure, you could probably create some Heath-Robinson-esque bodge to try and achieve a result, but in many cases I think the likely response would be "That's me out this month then".

I just think that each month's theme should be achievable by anyone regardless of the kit they own - if you have to start going out to buy / construct equipment then it'll be offputting.

 

[excalibur2]

I spent lots of time with macro last year and as a result I've havea dedicated macro lens, a set of extension tubes, AND a reversal ring, so I'm fine for macro shots . My point is what if someone thinks they'd like to take part but only has a 35mm compact with no filter thread? Sure, you could probably create some Heath-Robinson-esque bodge to try and achieve a result, but in many cases I think the likely response would be "That's me out this month then".

I just think that each month's theme should be achievable by anyone regardless of the kit they own - if you have to start going out to buy / construct equipment then it'll be offputting.

Throw away your Brownies, compacts and TLRs and get something like this

 

[Mr Badger]

I fully understand your point, Nige, but the trouble is that a lot of subjects tend to favour those with the right kit (such as lights and/or reflectors for indoor still-life and portraits), but it doesn't stop people who haven't got that kit using their initiative and entering.

As for someone who's only got a simple 35mm compact camera being put off entering, has anyone who's entered this year's contest actually only got a 35mm compact available to them? In the interest of 'inclusion', I wish to point out that I entered last month's round with a photo taken with just such a camera... not that it did me any good, as my photo's not received a single vote so far!

 

[srichards]

Mine are earth, air, fire and water.

I can't choose just 4 favourite sins... if anyone wants to steal any sins to suggest feel free

 

[simon ess]

I can't choose just 4 favourite sins... if anyone wants to steal any sins to suggest feel free

How about a modern twist?

Waste
Consumption
Fake
Celebrity

 

[excalibur2]

an oldie'...faith, hope and charity

 

[ChrisR]

I like this very much. The advantage over the simpler system Carl mentioned is that winning puts you ahead by more. Of course this might mean that a few would romp away with it, which also might be discouraging...

Maybe I should try it on this year's results...

OK after an hour or so slogging away at bits of Excel that I'm relatively unfamiliar with (eg the INDEX function), I got some results. So far this year (ie not including October) 9 people have got no points at all. With the F1 scoring in place, that drops to 5 zero Points, but interestingly two of those who currently have zero points jump above some of those who currently have 2 points. In Carl's suggested system (points for 1-12), as you might expect the number of zero points drops even lower to 3, and this time 3 of the current zero pointers jump above one of the 2-pointers. There are a few place adjustments higher in the table, which I haven't looked at closely and am not planning to publish as it might affect peoples' views! I didn't see an obvious "runaway" effect in the high places, although might have to look more closely to see.

On balance though, I'm now reasonably convinced that the F1 system doesn't give any significant advantage over Carl's proposal, and benefits fewer people, so I'd go with Carl's idea!

 

[RaglanSurf]

OK after an hour or so slogging away at bits of Excel that I'm relatively unfamiliar with (eg the INDEX function), I got some results. So far this year (ie not including October) 9 people have got no points at all. With the F1 scoring in place, that drops to 5 zero Points, but interestingly two of those who currently have zero points jump above some of those who currently have 2 points. In Carl's suggested system (points for 1-12), as you might expect the number of zero points drops even lower to 3, and this time 3 of the current zero pointers jump above one of the 2-pointers. There are a few place adjustments higher in the table, which I haven't looked at closely and am not planning to publish as it might affect peoples' views! I didn't see an obvious "runaway" effect in the high places, although might have to look more closely to see.

On balance though, I'm now reasonably convinced that the F1 system doesn't give any significant advantage over Carl's proposal, and benefits fewer people, so I'd go with Carl's idea!

Really interesting Chris, thanks for taking the trouble to do this.

 

[Mr Badger]

I think the main contributing factors to people dropping out of entering are actually a lack of spare time and the associated lack of opportunity to take relevant photos as the year goes on. I'm not sure there's an achievable (rules wise) answer to this aspect?

As for a scoring system, I think whatever points or voting system there is, there are bound to be some winners and losers and I think if we make things too complicated then it's not going to add much value and will probably just confuse people.

So perhaps it's best to keep things simple and go with Carl's suggestion of points down to 12th place? But clarify that in the event of a draw, the following example applies (as is currently the case): 1st place = 12 points, joint 2nd place = 11 points each. The next available position would then be 4th place, with the usual 9 points being awarded for that, etc.

Failing agreement on that, my vote is going to have to be for a geometric-mean based adaptation of proportional representation combined with the Duckworth-Lewis method!

 

[Carl Hall]

I think the main contributing factors to people dropping out of entering are actually a lack of spare time and the associated lack of opportunity to take relevant photos as the year goes on. I'm not sure there's an achievable (rules wise) answer to this aspect?

I don't think it's anything that we can fix at all really. I get that people don't always have a lot of spare time to take photos for the comp, but everyone is free to dip in and out of the comp throughout the year when they have time. If someone want to enter every month and score enough points to get towards the top of the table, then it's up to them to find the time to do that really.

It's not a case of taking one photo a month either. For Novembers church theme you have about 10.5 months to take a photo as it's from the start of the year. I understand the start of the year is a bit rushed to get the first couple entries in, but really it should get easier as the year goes on.

 

[excalibur2]

I think the main contributing factors to people dropping out of entering are actually a lack of spare time and the associated lack of opportunity to take relevant photos as the year goes on. I'm not sure there's an achievable (rules wise) answer to this aspect?

Carl beat me to it, so just repeating:- Well it might be possible (depending of the themes) to take shots for the whole year in the first month....so like most things if you are keen enough you'd find time

 

[Mrs Snap]

Righto, my 4 suggested themes are:

1. Goats! (Haha, only kidding!!)

1. Bright colours
2. Framed
3. Weather and it's effects
4. Airborne