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Flash advice needed for a wedding shoot
- Thread starter Mike Dodson
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Steve Smith
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I would be wary of setting any expectations. However, what you suggest seems a reasonable statement of intent.
Steve.
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- Dean
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For some photos are as important as napkins - great if they're there, but hardly a crime if not. If you don't believe that it's fine, but it is true.The comments about how they don't care about the photographs are pretty amusing if that was the case surely there would be no photographs taken at all.
Steve Smith
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I think it's important in these types of threads to take notice of the title. The OP asked for advice on using flash, not to decide if he should do the wedding or not!
Steve.
Steve.
Please read neil Van Niekerks website / blog. And you tube vide. He explains everything you need to know, in an easy to follow fashion.
Bounce flash will be your friend if you do not have umbrellas etc.
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Threads like this make me smile for many reasons. The first is when I look back to our wedding. We hired a family friend because he was all we could afford. He told us he had the gear and would do his best although he hadnt done a wedding before and we paid him £150 for the day because we needed a photographer. I did not know then what I know now! the photos were awful and I wish I had spent more time thinking about the photographer because even at that price i reckon we could have got someone 10x better, they were shocking! To this day it still upsets me how poor the photos were.
Now having worked extremely hard to learn my craft (and as with everyone I will always be learning) I now have people asking me to work for the same money (which I politely decline) and it is why if anyone asks me my prices start at £1500 for a wedding because I wouldn't do that kind of work for less, the hours, the kit, the pressure is just not worth less than that for me...
To the OP. It appears clear you don't really know what you are doing and the very best thing you can do is be honest and politely decline the offer to shoot the wedding. If the couple want to give everyone a load of disposable cameras or you want to take your camera along and get some shots for the couple great, but don't agree to being the wedding photographer unless you know what you are doing. These photos will be with this couple for the rest of their lives and even if they tell you to your face that they're ok, if they actually think they are not, that's 2 very disappointed people for the rest of their lives. If that's not an option, you need to study and practice and hire some gear and make sure you know how it all works and that includes flash.
Now having worked extremely hard to learn my craft (and as with everyone I will always be learning) I now have people asking me to work for the same money (which I politely decline) and it is why if anyone asks me my prices start at £1500 for a wedding because I wouldn't do that kind of work for less, the hours, the kit, the pressure is just not worth less than that for me...
To the OP. It appears clear you don't really know what you are doing and the very best thing you can do is be honest and politely decline the offer to shoot the wedding. If the couple want to give everyone a load of disposable cameras or you want to take your camera along and get some shots for the couple great, but don't agree to being the wedding photographer unless you know what you are doing. These photos will be with this couple for the rest of their lives and even if they tell you to your face that they're ok, if they actually think they are not, that's 2 very disappointed people for the rest of their lives. If that's not an option, you need to study and practice and hire some gear and make sure you know how it all works and that includes flash.
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Disclaimer: I've done one wedding, for friends with no money. I use flash often, but I'm not terribly comfy in TTL mode - which is what a lot of wedding photographers use.
As it happened I didn't use flash at all on the day, and I know a few very good pros who don't use flash at all for weddings, resorting to a cheapo LED video light on extremely rare occasions. If you're uncomfortable with flash I'd suggest forgetting it too and accepting that there are some things you're not going to be able to do - but explain to the couple first. That way a whole degree of complexity and stress is dealt with in one stroke. The other alternative is to practice a lot between now and the wedding, preferably in the various venues. Without TTL or a light meter you can only rely on (a) experience or (b) taking test shots to get the exposure right. There's not a lot of time for the latter at a wedding.
If you do go the flash route then bouncing it is the default option, preferably off white walls, and preferably flagging it so no light from the flash directly illuminates your subject, as per Neil van Niekerk. Of course bouncing means that as you move around the exposure will change - which is why folk use TTL.
If flash is the only way to get results, and you don't have TTL, then one approach would be use a Rogue Flashbender or one of these clones, or go for the larger version. Then you could use (semi-) direct flash, which means that once you've found your exposure for a particular venue you won't need to keep adjusting. It would give much nicer results then direct top-of-the camera flash.
I mainly used fast primes and did a fair amount of swapping. (25mm, 45mm and 75mm f1.8 on a micro m4/3 sensor, so roughly 50-150 ff equiv range), though I did have a 12-40 f2.8 zoom too. Can you borrow or hire something? That would also help with the romantic bokeh thing.
For settings everyone will have their own way of working, but what worked best for me was using manual mode & spot metering, with single focus point and back button focus. Attempting to use exposure lock, focus lock and/or exposure compensation in aperture priority was slower than altering ISO and aperture in manual to suit. Shutter speed rarely dropped below 1/125 and was often higher.
Don't worry too much about image noise. You will notice; your couple probably won't.
This is the most important tip: if you're taking some time out to do couple portraits then watch some posing videos and find a willing couple to practise on. You'll deliver loads of pics but the one they'll print large will be of the two of them. When you do these portraits don't let anyone hover or shoot over your shoulder.
Have a large bottle of water handy. Everything happens very quickly once the bridal party leaves for the venue. You need to know exactly what you're doing, where, when and with which lens. One way go practice the skills required - if you don't have them already! - is to get out and do some street photography; everything happens at a similar speed.
Remember to have fun, though!
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Yes! Having just reread the thread I'm not surprised that the OP hasn't been back. Once again someone asking for honest advice seem to have been driven off.
If Jerry Ghionis (of Ice Light fame) can shoot a wedding with an iPhone 4S, submit it anonymously to a major US competition and come 4th then suggesting that the OP's basic lenses and basic knowledge of flash should bar him from being allowed to shoot weddings is arrogant in the extreme. IIRC TP used to bill itself as being the friendliest photography forum.
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Not exactly a fair comparison.
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Ok, so Ghionis is a master of his craft. The point remains valid, though - the OP was told that he needed better lenses and a mastery of flash before contemplating doing a wedding; that manifestly isn't true. He just needs to understand his own limits and manage the couple's expectations.
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See my posts for my view. I'm not against you here.
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Understood!
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I don’t post often on these kind of threads BUT we all start somewhere and 6/7 years ago i was this person... wanting advice and not knowing what advice to get!! There is some great advice in this thread already so i will try not to repeate anything but offer you my 2p
I had one of those cameras (at the time a 350d! ) people would tell me "oh you have a DSLR so must take good pictures" that really is like saying oh you have a car you must be able to drive in the UK F1 - i did not know that at the time and learnt the hard way! i was always frustrated with my pictures why did they not look as good as the stuff I saw elsewhere ? but hey I was pleased I had a better toy than everyone else and was being compared to a pro by a mate .... I had the same thing happen to me - someone saw my camera and expected id produce the same results as in the mags and wedding shows... it’s the camera that does the work not the person right?
To get what i mean have a look what a skilled person can do with kit you don’t expect.. such as this.. https://fstoppers.com/editorial/iphone-fashion-shoot-lee-morris-6173 what do you spot ? the skill of the person - balancing the lighting, and the poses of the model (and yes at a wedding everyone is a model) people have the perception that a person with a 'proper' camera WILL make them look like all those happy brides and grooms they see in other photography websites and brochures. This is why our mates ask us to take their photos and save some cash as it will be fine on the day right?
Photography takes skill it really does.. a wedding – even more , ive seen some amazing photographers and some would never do a wedding … I was asked to do a wedding… I decided to practice – I realised my camera, basic lenses and flash did not produce the results I knew people would want (and it does not matter here if people are not paying you anything or paying £1500… they want to be that bride and groom on the front cover of uk bride !) My kit and me was not up to the task… first me… I was not quick enough making decisions, I did not know what I should do about light – poses etc.. so I began reading LOTS and practicing for hours.. going out in the street – stopping people – testing myself and pushing myself out of my comfort zone (and you can do this with the kit you have got ! ) you have to be able to manage people and your camera too. It’s a skill I developed and LOVE and love more and more each time I pick up my camera.. being part of someone’s wedding day (even as a guest) is an honour, just cos someone has less to spend that someone else on anything does not mean they value that day any more or less! I cant stress this enough.. after I improved I learn the limits of my camera , knowing that with a f number limited by my lens I needed more light – higher iso (grain! ) a slower shutter speed (cant do that its blurry! never go under 80 of a second and tbh this is to slow!) which meant quite simply I could not get the shot… I progressed through lenses learning to use manual to get the settings right (and how to use the flash to achieve this ) getting faster prime lenses then to bodies.. 350d/60d/5d and now a 5dmk3 ive now done about 15 weddings mostly as a second to get to point I would now be happy to present my own work to a bride and groom but I’m still learning and always improving.
Id ask your friend and ask them to be 100% honest as people fall out about stuff like this– are they really expecting you to grab 10 / 20 images of the day to remember it as they are not to fussed but want some photos, or do they want to produce a photo book of 100’s of images, remembering all the detail , people there etc a true story of the day? If so then you will actually be a full time photographer for the day and you can forget sitting down or having a drink !
You should not just fire away, every shot you take needs to be planned so you know it will be a usable one, you need to know how to place your subject, ensure there is no rubbish around in the way (tress out of heads a pet peeve! ) also things like beer glasses , people smoking… then your camera.. how to focus, recompose… the focusing modes on your camera, how to bounce the flash and keep things looking natural - there is loads of advice and youtube videos to start looking at, if you enjoy photography you prob already know where to look but need nudge to be told to go practice! Honestly its ok to be a bit pants and produce rubbish results its part of the learning curve… BUT I must stress you can’t use someone’s wedding day to do this.. that’s their time you should be confident in your ability’s – if not just politely say no its not the kind of thing you photograph, don’t take your camera and enjoy the day as a guest. If you think you can do well, and want to give it a go find someone to go shoot with find some willing test subjects and show your camera who is boss! Remember everyone started somewhere…
the most important point i can make here and cant stress this enough.... remember after the cake has been eaten , the venue has been tidied up and the dress put away in a box never to be seen again - all they have left is the photographs of the day
I had one of those cameras (at the time a 350d! ) people would tell me "oh you have a DSLR so must take good pictures" that really is like saying oh you have a car you must be able to drive in the UK F1 - i did not know that at the time and learnt the hard way! i was always frustrated with my pictures why did they not look as good as the stuff I saw elsewhere ? but hey I was pleased I had a better toy than everyone else and was being compared to a pro by a mate .... I had the same thing happen to me - someone saw my camera and expected id produce the same results as in the mags and wedding shows... it’s the camera that does the work not the person right?
To get what i mean have a look what a skilled person can do with kit you don’t expect.. such as this.. https://fstoppers.com/editorial/iphone-fashion-shoot-lee-morris-6173 what do you spot ? the skill of the person - balancing the lighting, and the poses of the model (and yes at a wedding everyone is a model) people have the perception that a person with a 'proper' camera WILL make them look like all those happy brides and grooms they see in other photography websites and brochures. This is why our mates ask us to take their photos and save some cash as it will be fine on the day right?
Photography takes skill it really does.. a wedding – even more , ive seen some amazing photographers and some would never do a wedding … I was asked to do a wedding… I decided to practice – I realised my camera, basic lenses and flash did not produce the results I knew people would want (and it does not matter here if people are not paying you anything or paying £1500… they want to be that bride and groom on the front cover of uk bride !) My kit and me was not up to the task… first me… I was not quick enough making decisions, I did not know what I should do about light – poses etc.. so I began reading LOTS and practicing for hours.. going out in the street – stopping people – testing myself and pushing myself out of my comfort zone (and you can do this with the kit you have got ! ) you have to be able to manage people and your camera too. It’s a skill I developed and LOVE and love more and more each time I pick up my camera.. being part of someone’s wedding day (even as a guest) is an honour, just cos someone has less to spend that someone else on anything does not mean they value that day any more or less! I cant stress this enough.. after I improved I learn the limits of my camera , knowing that with a f number limited by my lens I needed more light – higher iso (grain! ) a slower shutter speed (cant do that its blurry! never go under 80 of a second and tbh this is to slow!) which meant quite simply I could not get the shot… I progressed through lenses learning to use manual to get the settings right (and how to use the flash to achieve this ) getting faster prime lenses then to bodies.. 350d/60d/5d and now a 5dmk3 ive now done about 15 weddings mostly as a second to get to point I would now be happy to present my own work to a bride and groom but I’m still learning and always improving.
Id ask your friend and ask them to be 100% honest as people fall out about stuff like this– are they really expecting you to grab 10 / 20 images of the day to remember it as they are not to fussed but want some photos, or do they want to produce a photo book of 100’s of images, remembering all the detail , people there etc a true story of the day? If so then you will actually be a full time photographer for the day and you can forget sitting down or having a drink !
You should not just fire away, every shot you take needs to be planned so you know it will be a usable one, you need to know how to place your subject, ensure there is no rubbish around in the way (tress out of heads a pet peeve! ) also things like beer glasses , people smoking… then your camera.. how to focus, recompose… the focusing modes on your camera, how to bounce the flash and keep things looking natural - there is loads of advice and youtube videos to start looking at, if you enjoy photography you prob already know where to look but need nudge to be told to go practice! Honestly its ok to be a bit pants and produce rubbish results its part of the learning curve… BUT I must stress you can’t use someone’s wedding day to do this.. that’s their time you should be confident in your ability’s – if not just politely say no its not the kind of thing you photograph, don’t take your camera and enjoy the day as a guest. If you think you can do well, and want to give it a go find someone to go shoot with find some willing test subjects and show your camera who is boss! Remember everyone started somewhere…
the most important point i can make here and cant stress this enough.... remember after the cake has been eaten , the venue has been tidied up and the dress put away in a box never to be seen again - all they have left is the photographs of the day
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I did my first wedding free for a friend - after much persuasion. They weren't too worried about lots of photos, they were very laid back and in the end were more than happy with what I managed to get. It's doable if you prepare well.
I even posted a thread in here asking for advice on lenses - https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/good-lens-for-wedding.335016/ (which I heeded and bought a 17-50 2.8). I had two bodies, two flashes, back up lenses, checked out the venue and attended the rehearsal, did practice shoots to get used to posing and directing, did a course on using off camera flash and practiced in case the weather was really miserable (the wedding was in Nov - though ended up a sunny day so were able to have the photos outside), and brought a friend along for moral support and to help me spot stuff I might miss (background details, dress not sitting right etc). I spent time and money preparing - I had in the back of my head if I loved it I'd want to do more (I did!). I had a shot list and I even had notes for myself with which lens I planned to use for each part of the day.
So for me it involved a training course, practice shoots, new kit, borrowed kit and visits to the venues. It's not the cheap or easy option and while the couple are saving in not paying for a pro you might end up spending money on training, equipment and time in practice and preparation. Which is fine if it's kit/experience that will be useful for the future too.
And at the end of the shooting, I did put my camera away and hit the dance floor for the last couple of hours!
I even posted a thread in here asking for advice on lenses - https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/good-lens-for-wedding.335016/ (which I heeded and bought a 17-50 2.8). I had two bodies, two flashes, back up lenses, checked out the venue and attended the rehearsal, did practice shoots to get used to posing and directing, did a course on using off camera flash and practiced in case the weather was really miserable (the wedding was in Nov - though ended up a sunny day so were able to have the photos outside), and brought a friend along for moral support and to help me spot stuff I might miss (background details, dress not sitting right etc). I spent time and money preparing - I had in the back of my head if I loved it I'd want to do more (I did!). I had a shot list and I even had notes for myself with which lens I planned to use for each part of the day.
So for me it involved a training course, practice shoots, new kit, borrowed kit and visits to the venues. It's not the cheap or easy option and while the couple are saving in not paying for a pro you might end up spending money on training, equipment and time in practice and preparation. Which is fine if it's kit/experience that will be useful for the future too.
And at the end of the shooting, I did put my camera away and hit the dance floor for the last couple of hours!
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I don't know how useful this might sound but how about asking a fellow forum member who might be looking for opportunities to build their profile as a wedding photographer so you have a second set of eyes on the wedding and won't have so much pressure on you. Plus, the additional kit and perspective they will be adding could help make a huge difference.