Flash vs HTML

I don't think the "nearly 20 years" experience online really have any relevant in your argument against Flash anyway as it wasn't around nor was HTML, since Win 3.1 didn't get release til 1992.

Fact of the matter is that Flash is an important intergral part of the modern internet web design, even the BBC have whole heartly embraced/ultilising it in their broadcasting. Look at iplayer, and how it opened a world of media to people who can't wait 3 hours to download some Mpeg or Avi.

p.s. it was Who? whom said he blocks Flash contents on his PC, not KIPAX.
 
Raymond Lin said:
I don't think the "nearly 20 years" experience online really have any relevant in your argument against Flash .
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sigh... I KNOW FLASH WASNT ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO!!!! My point was that the OP should sell himself using means that everyone can see.. that argument is the same now just as it has been for as long as the www or the internet has existed.. The same argument was against javascript many years ago.. the same argument was against different browsers even more years ago. the same argument for different reasons.

Sell yourself to everyone! is my motto.. Not just to people with certain software, screen resolution, browser, hardware blah blah
 
I persnally think that Flash has penatrated enough of the userbase market where there the reason to "sell it to everyone" is no longer relevant. There are still people who uses 28.8k moderm, are you going to remove the gallery because it is photo intensive ?

You can't cater for everyone, pick the best design that can show off your work. If its flash, use it, don't worry about the minority that refuses to install the plugin.
 
Raymond Lin said:
You can't cater for everyone, .
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I strongly dissagree with that... very strongly.. You can cater for everyone... For the fourth time in this thread.. I like Flash and think it looks good..

If I had time i could make my first page on my website detect if the visitor has flaSh installed and produce content accordingly.. I could show flash to them that have it and dhtml to others and plain old html to others.. I could have large or small pics or just text depending on the visitors information that I could detect.. But i dont cus I cant be bovvered.

But to say you cant cater for everyone is rediculously untrue IMHO
 
swfobject for the win.

If everyone who claims to be a web developer used this with their flash sites then it'd be a better world for everyone.

go to www.marquecreative.com where you can see how we've implemented it and turn off your javascript or your flash. If you're over 70 and hate flash then this will make you happy. No flash? No problem.
 
KIPAX said:
I strongly dissagree with that... very strongly.. You can cater for everyone... For the fourth time in this thread.. I like Flash and think it looks good..

If I had time i could make my first page on my website detect if the visitor has flaSh installed and produce content accordingly.. I could show flash to them that have it and dhtml to others and plain old html to others.. I could have large or small pics or just text depending on the visitors information that I could detect.. But i dont cus I cant be bovvered.

But to say you cant cater for everyone is rediculously untrue IMHO
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You don't need a lot of time to do that. 5 minutes is all it takes, see my previous post.

Also, in my option you cannot cater for everyone. It's near impossible to build a site that everyone will be able to use equally. And this to me is fundamental, if by catering for everyone means developing lesser versions of a website for people to use who say don't have flash, or use archaic browers, then you're never going to progress. Flash is a perfect example of progress. Within 6 months of a new version the uptake of that version will be around 70-80% of all browsers, within the year it'll be above 90%. I find it crazy that there are still people suspicious of Flash, and I'm not directing that at you, sir.

If you went to school and did tech studies or some form of design you'll have been taught the 5th and 95th percentile rule. Anything above or below that is desirable, everything in between is absolutely necessary.
 
KayJay said:
You don't need a lot of time to do that. 5 minutes is all it takes, see my previous post.
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I meant the whole process.. ie to make diff versions of the site.. no point taking 5 mins to detect if yer not going to do anything about it:)


KayJay said:
Also, in my option you cannot cater for everyone. It's near impossible to build a site that everyone will be able to use equally.
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Now you moved the goalposts.. naught naughty... I agree you cant cater for everyone "equally".. but you can cater for all

KayJay said:
Flash is a perfect example of progress.
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the whole www could be using flash one day and all other technologies fazed out... nothing would suprise me:) But until its usable by all then its not the answer to selling yourself or a product IMHO


If you had a shop on the high street selling goods.. would you let everyone in or only the 90% wearing brown or black shoes?
 
You don't need to make different versions of the site, that's the whole point in swfobject. If you'd designed your site well enough all you'll be doing is putting, in your source code, the content in html format. Fall back content. You need to read that link.

I'd rather do my best to treat everyone equal than offer degraded versions of my work... and the point is to choose the correct tool for the project. My blog site is entirely html and css. I could have done it in flash but it wouldn't have been appropriate.

If I had a shop in the high street, I'd let everyone come in but I bet you less than 90% would buy something ;) the 10% would see the html fallback and the rest would see the flash goodness :clap: :razz:
 
KIPAX said:
oh dear.. did we miss the bit where I said "I like flash.. I think it looks great"
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Yes, because it was surrounded by unqualified Flash bashing... sorry, my bad.

And let's be honest, where the web is concerned, 20 years experience is more a liability than an asset. Someone with 4 years experience "trained" on the lastest apps and languages would be far more internet savvy than those who do not retrain each time a new version is released.

My point is that your views on Flash are outdated, and mostly wrong yet you're expressing them as though you are an authority. I'm not out for an argument, I just dont want the OP to base his decision to use Flash or not on views that are not correct or fair. It's not about you or I, but about the OP's original question, which asked for views on using HTML or Flash, and the truth is that for Media intensive websites, Flash wins hands down. For text rich sites or sites which are geared towards table based data, XML/xHTML/CSS is the preferred route.
 
neo2810 said:
Yes, because it was surrounded by unqualified Flash bashing... sorry, my bad..
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How childish :(

OK I have my opinion and you have yours..Thats how life works..Unfortunatly you feel I am not allowed mine. Thats a shame.. But I wont lose too much sleep over it :)
 
Raymond Lin said:
p.s. it was Who? whom said he blocks Flash contents on his PC, not KIPAX.
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Well Flash has always been a bit iffy on many of the platforms that I use.

All these web designers who assume that the internet only exists on PCs. :nono:

But I guess I'm another dinosaur. 12 years ago I was writing web servers.
 
who? said:
But I guess I'm another dinosaur. 12 years ago I was writing web servers.
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eee by gum it dont feel like more than 5 minutes ago when i got a positive review in a computer magazine for experimenting using colours in the background of a website (www used to be B/W in my house)

I remember sitting in my tin bath thinking....... one day some ... nagh never mind :)
 
KIPAX said:
How childish :(
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Ah, we resorting to that already are we? :baby:


KIPAX said:
OK I have my opinion and you have yours..Thats how life works..Unfortunatly you feel I am not allowed mine. Thats a shame.. But I wont lose too much sleep over it :)
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You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, and I'm perfectly entitled to tell you your opinion is wrong. Calling me childish however, is out of order, completely. That line was an apology, a genuine one you've clearly read out of context. Still, I wont lose much sleep over it either... :razz:
 
mm this is interesting - i'm looking to build a new website, for two new domains i have brought, and have been researching my options and looking at how i can use Flash on my new website. i like good flash and hate bad flash - but there is more bad then good, - when it is done well flash looks great but all to often (like HDR) if it is not done with taste then it is cheep looking and slow to load.

for me a mix of flash and html works best - keep it simple and fast when that is what is needed
 
Raymond Lin said:
The people who oppose flash tends to be the ones who knows about computers, they can give you loads of reasons ...
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Raymond Lin said:
the people who can't see flash sites tends to be the ones who know what flash is a purposely not install flash plugins and actively refuse to look at flash sites.

Clients and joe public, do not have that mind set.
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Raymond Lin said:
I am saying that from experience, the people who doesn't have flash or unable to see it in my experience tends to be the ones that know what flash is and refuse to install the plugin.
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who? said:
I'm with Kipax. If I visit a flash site then I see a blank screen. I'm not going to enable flash unless I know that there is something I need to see. There is very little that I need to see.
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who? said:
12 years ago I was writing web servers.
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KIPAX said:
just my opinion after nearly 20 yrs online :)
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You guys just made my point came true.

Like i said, Joe Public won't care if its HTML or Flash, they like the one that looks best, and Joe Public will more likely to have Flash installed than people that knows about computers and more so if it's their day job. If anything, may be its a good idea to use flash in a way to filter those potential clients who isn't open to new ideas ?
 
It's not unusual for council buildings and workplaces for that matter to have flash uninstalled. System admin don't seem to like it all that much. I remember building a flash based education game for the Scottish Exec and then it dawned on them that actually we're going to have to install flash on our machines because currently it's blocked on all Scottish school computers. I think that's changed now.

At the same time though, any flash website should have fallback content incase the flash doesn't load.
 
KayJay said:
At the same time though, any flash website should have fallback content incase the flash doesn't load.
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Exactly.. that would be great!

Nothing at all against flash as I keep repeating... it looks great... if people had fallback content it would be the perfect answer :)
 
Hi

This is an interesting discussion

But to say you cant cater for everyone is rediculously untrue IMHO

Maybe you can but would you want to. I remember a friend of mine who made a massive mistake with a series of portraits he took. Its a long story but he ended up charging different amounts for similar portrait sittings based on what he thought each person could afford. It turned out some of them knew each other and all hell broke loose.

If you are going to cater for all then the chap in the Merc can pay more for a 20x16 than a struggling single mum although the single mum would probably actually be more willing to pay more. Makes it very difficult to cater for all in a commercial sense.

Some shops lay out their front window to look very expensive. A another chap I played golf with (and this is a true story) always looked at the price labels on clothes not to make sure he could afford them but to make sure they were at least £100. If they weren't over £100 in his eyes they were not good enough. The expensive shop windows are designed to attract this sort of chap and put off others who cannot afford to enter.

This leads me onto flash verses html. When I see a nice flash site it looks more "expensive" than most html sites. I wonder if its the same concept as the shop window and you could get away with charging more?

stew
 
i'd say it's down to the quality of the design rather than what it's made with
 
snappyt said:
Just tried this on the computers at the local library, failed to load.

At work, failed to load.

Why? No flash installed.
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this is interesting as all the pc's at work (council with around 4,000 pc's) have flash, as do the library pc's, (so there are variations as to whether flash is available) although i agree that all websites using flash should have a way of functioning without flash. the same can be said for javascript as it can be disabled by the client, and also functions that only work with internet explorer for example. the question is were do you draw the line?
 
I don't pay my taxes for our public servants to be looking for their wedding photographer on work PCs anyway :p ;)
 
snappyt said:
:|

I also noted a number of PC's had a very outdated version of flash.
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Any flash I have ever used on any previous websites has always been exported to the lowest version that had all the bits the file needed. Even today you can still export to flash 5 and not miss out on anything...and we're on 9 or 10 now?? :)
 
How do you mean?? In my 6 years of using it I don't think it has improved on the user end as such...what you can do now you could do then!
 
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