Fluorescent or Halogen? Help Needed.

[silkblooms]

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can advise on the best lighting for our company. Here are the key points:

- We photograph wedding bouquets in a studio, sitting on a table inside a white tent.

- The room often has a bit of daylight bursting through the window (not direct) but we don't use the ceiling lights in the room.

- We've got five floor standing lights, all with E27 screw fittings.

- We're not able to use flash photography as it gives poor results for flowers. Flowers are best photographed without flash.

- We have Nikon D70 and Nikon D300 cameras with Nikon lens 18mm-70mm. We don't need macro shots, so this lens works well.

- We can't shoot from a tripod as we need to take too many shots and too many angles.

The question is what light bulds to use for the continuous lighting that will light up the tent? We've tried fluorescent 150W, 5400K but have been advised that the camera needs to be on low shutter speeds to deal with the resulting light frequency. Unfortunately, low shutter speeds means tripods. We can't use tripods.

We were also advised that halogens would be the best option but looking at the myriad of halogens on the market is daunting. Can anyone advise if halogens would be the best option for us and if so, what Wattage and what light temperature should we be looking for?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ste Manns]

Flowers are best photographed without flash.
.

That's a rather bold statement! Not one I'd agree with either. Can't really say much typing on this teeny phone but I have to ask, have you ever tried? If so, what have you tried?

 

[silkblooms]

That's a rather bold statement! Not one I'd agree with either. Can't really say much typing on this teeny phone but I have to ask, have you ever tried? If so, what have you tried?

Flash photography is too harsh for flowers. We've never had good results with speedlights or Prolinda flashes. Tried a few different setups.

 

[Garry Edwards]

- We're not able to use flash photography as it gives poor results for flowers. Flowers are best photographed without flash.

Nonsense. Flash is the perfect tool for the job. I'm talking studio flash here, with the right modifiers in the right position. on camera flash is something entirely different of course.

The question is what light bulds to use for the continuous lighting that will light up the tent?

You shouldn't use a light tent, you'll just get flat, boring results that won't do justice to your wedding bouquets.
If you're happy with the kind of quality that light tents produce, use fluorescent lights - forget halogen.
The question is what light bulds to use for the continuous lighting that will light up the tent?

We've tried fluorescent 150W, 5400K but have been advised that the camera needs to be on low shutter speeds to deal with the resulting light frequency

This reads to me that you're not using photographic fluorescent lights, you're using household ones that are much cheaper but which are totally unsuitable. There is virtually no flicker with photographic ones, the colour temperature is relatively stable and the Color Rendition index is relatively high (at around 90, compared to a useless 67 or so for domestic ones, which produce false colours). Of course, there are probably some sellers on Ebay who claim that their crappy lights are designed for photography when they aren't.

- We can't shoot from a tripod as we need to take too many shots and too many angles

. Yes you can, I do, every day, although I tend to use a studio stand rather than a tripod. You may need different tripods in different positions, each fitted with a different camera, or fitted with a quick release head so that the single camera can be moved around quickly and easily. Or you may find it much easier just to move the flowers, which is very easy provided that you don't stick them in a light tent

 

[silkblooms]

Nonsense. Flash is the perfect tool for the job. I'm talking studio flash here, with the right modifiers in the right position. on camera flash is something entirely different of course.
You shouldn't use a light tent, you'll just get flat, boring results that won't do justice to your wedding bouquets.
If you're happy with the kind of quality that light tents produce, use fluorescent lights - forget halogen.
The question is what light bulds to use for the continuous lighting that will light up the tent? This reads to me that you're not using photographic fluorescent lights, you're using household ones that are much cheaper but which are totally unsuitable. There is virtually no flicker with photographic ones, the colour temperature is relatively stable and the Color Rendition index is relatively high (at around 90, compared to a useless 67 or so for domestic ones, which produce false colours). Of course, there are probably some sellers on Ebay who claim that their crappy lights are designed for photography when they aren't. . Yes you can, I do, every day, although I tend to use a studio stand rather than a tripod. You may need different tripods in different positions, each fitted with a different camera, or fitted with a quick release head so that the single camera can be moved around quickly and easily. Or you may find it much easier just to move the flowers, which is very easy provided that you don't stick them in a light tent

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. In an ideal world I'd flatten the light tent and never use it again. I hate it tbh. It's so limiting with the angles. If you think studio flashes are the ideal too then I'll look at using them again. I have a Prolinca 400 (with white unbrella) and an Elinchrom 600 (with a softbox) but the studio room is fairly small and the results are often way over exposed, even with the flash heads turned to the lowest position. I also have a Nikon speedlight which I use to trigger the flashes.

Do you think you'd be able to describe a rough setup for us or should be just experiment more with different layouts?

Sorry, I'm a true amateur and everything I've learned about photography is either self-taught or read on the various forums. We've been trying really hard to get the right results.

The fluorescent lamps we have were purchased on eBay. They are 5400K and they are 150W. Big spiral shaped bulbs. I wouldn't call them household but I would say they definitely give false colours.

I think the bulbs are my biggest problem. I would really appreciate some pointers on which bulbs to replace them with.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I suspect that you've been sold a pup with the Ebay lights, it's a dumping ground for junk, often sold by people who know and care absolutely nothing about the goods. The false colours will be caused by a low colour rendition index, which makes reds look orange, orange look yellow and yellow look white. (it's a bit more technical than that but that's a halfway fair explanation). If you want real photographic fluorescent lights then you can buy them from here - but take my advice and use flash instead.

Your existing flash heads are fine for the job, especially the 600, although it has far more power than you need. The Prolinca, from memory, is a bit limited in the adjustment department and this could potentially cause a problem, but if it's too powerful at minimum setting you can always reduce the power by putting a neutral density gel in front of it.

IMO light tents are an abomination. They have their uses for illustrating what products look like, but I'm guessing that you want your products to look attractive.

Don't use your hotshoe flash to trigger the lights, use a radio trigger instead.

Use a table with a paper background instead of a light tent, or better still, using a large shooting table. If that's too big or too expensive, use a small shooting table instead, if it's wide enough for your products.

Put a flash head with softbox overhead in roughly this position, you should get a boom arm, although you may be able to manage without one.

Use a beauty dish with a honeycomb to skim across the front of the flowers and highlight their texture. This needs to be used at as much distance as you have available - don't have it too close to the flowers otherwise the side nearest to the beauty dish will be much brighter than the other side.

Use a reflector on a reflector boom arm to pick up spare light from the lights and kick it into shadow areas.

You'll need to experiment quite a bit, but with a little practice you'll get pro quality results.

All of the links are to the Lencarta website because I'm involved with Lencarta and know the products, but not all are suitable for your particular needs, as you're forced to use Elinchrom fit modifiers. You need to get the beauty dish from Elinchrom, although you can fit the Lencarta honeycomb to it (I don't believe that Elinchrom do a honeycomb).
There are of course other makes available too - these links are just for illustration.

Use your camera on manual, set the ISO as low as it will go (200?) and if you still have too much power, which I doubt, use a neutral density filter on the lens.

 

[HoppyUK]

Silkblooms, listen to Garry.

Flash is ideal, but to be honest, you could use anything as a light source - it's the light modifier (softbox, whatever) that shapes the result. Halogen is not a good idea though - too much heat.

Not sure why you're having exposure problems with flash, unless they're old units that you can't turn down low and you've got them very close with high ISO. Flash is the best option if you don't want to use a tripod.

It sounds like the main thing you're lacking, with respect, is a bit of photographic knowledge. Throw away that light tent, get a decent background, and learn to use just one light with say a 60-80cm softbox and a reflector. That's really all you need, certainly for starters.

Show us an example, or post a link to something that you want to replicate. How big is your studio area, and what colour are the walls?

 

[Ste Manns]

Certainly, listen to Garry and take his advice.

Did you say you were firing the studio flash with an on camera speedlite? Reckon that's your problem right there, or one of them anyway. I'm sorry I'm still on my phone so can't really help much right now, but will say look at other methods of triggering you're flash, sync chord or wireless triggers. Sounds like you also need to look at the relationships between flash to subject distance, aperture and ISO speed. There are LOTS of resources out there to help.

 

[silkblooms]

Guys! Thank you, thank you, thank you! I've been on so many forums with so many conflicting and misleading advice. I get the feeling I've found a good forum at last.

Garry, really good advice and some brilliant links. I'm going to get a radio trigger and dig out the lights again. I'll be back on here with some samples and examples so please bookmark this thread as it'll take a few days for equipment to arrive and experiments to begin.

HoppyUK, when you say to use just one light with a softbox, do you mean a modelling light or a flashlight? The modelling bulbs that are inside of the Elinchrom and Prolinca would appear to be nothing more than 100W tungstens. I don't use these but it looks like I'll need to get some decent quality replacements. These little things (which ones to buy) are what causes me trouble. Fluorescents don't fit the heads as they're too thick at the neck of the bulb..... so what are the best modelling bulbs to use through the softbox?

I'll gladly throw away the tent. I hate using it. I don't have a table like that but I do have a makeshift table with a curved white background that's been made from pure white foamex type paper which we purchased from a local sign maker. It looks like the same deal as the material on that table, Garry. I'm sure it will do the same job.

I used to use these flash units for a clothing company we had and I have them mastered for clothing shots. Flowers have been so much more of a challenge but I hope I can find a way to ahchieve the shots I'm after. Hopefully with some help.

Stay tuned.

 

[Ste Manns]

Just very quickly the modelling lights in studio flash heads are not there to light your shot. They are simply there to help you assess and have an idea of what the flash output will be like.

 

[HoppyUK]

Guys! Thank you, thank you, thank you! I've been on so many forums with so many conflicting and misleading advice. I get the feeling I've found a good forum at last.

Garry, really good advice and some brilliant links. I'm going to get a radio trigger and dig out the lights again. I'll be back on here with some samples and examples so please bookmark this thread as it'll take a few days for equipment to arrive and experiments to begin.

HoppyUK, when you say to use just one light with a softbox, do you mean a modelling light or a flashlight? The modelling bulbs that are inside of the Elinchrom and Prolinca would appear to be nothing more than 100W tungstens. I don't use these but it looks like I'll need to get some decent quality replacements. These little things (which ones to buy) are what causes me trouble. Fluorescents don't fit the heads as they're too thick at the neck of the bulb..... so what are the best modelling bulbs to use through the softbox?

I'll gladly throw away the tent. I hate using it. I don't have a table like that but I do have a makeshift table with a curved white background that's been made from pure white foamex type paper which we purchased from a local sign maker. It looks like the same deal as the material on that table, Garry. I'm sure it will do the same job.

I used to use these flash units for a clothing company we had and I have them mastered for clothing shots. Flowers have been so much more of a challenge but I hope I can find a way to ahchieve the shots I'm after. Hopefully with some help.

Stay tuned.

There seem to be a few misunderstandings running thought your posts so it's not easy to know where to start. But you have some equipment that sounds capable and you don't lack enthusiasm and willingness to learn, so it should all come good.

Garry has said he'll advise later, so in the interests of preventing confusion, I'll leave it to him.

 

[silkblooms]

Sorry if my posts have caused confusion. I'll try to keep it focused and yes, I am very keen to learn the right setup and technique for still life flower photography.

I already have a lot of the items on your list Garry, but some basic questions to stop me wasting more money on the wrong equipment again:


1. How many flash heads should be firing when I take a shot of a bouquet? Is it just the head inside the softbox, above the table, like this? Or should there be another flash head in operation too?

2. What sort of bulb should I use to sit in the centre of the beauty dish with the honeycomb? If you're saying to use this at as much distance as possible, then it must have to be either a flash head or very powerful light bulb?

3. The D70 goes down to ISO 200 and the D300 goes down to ISO 100. I much prefer the D70 as it's menu's are less complex than the D300 (which seems far too over complicated). I hate the colour settings in the D300 (standard, vivid, etc..). Would you say it's worth getting to know the D300 or should the D70 do as good a job for my purpose? It'd be good to re-sell the D300 to pay for some of this new gear that I need.

4. What colour of reflector would work best for flowers? The walls in the room are all white incidentally.

5. How do I know what neutral density filter will fit my lens?

Sorry if these seem like no-brainers.

 

[JonathanRyan]

I know nobody's going to listen to this but......

I'm assuming you make silk flower arrangements and I bet you are pretty good at it. From the little I know about this industry I assume the majority of your customers make at least first contact via your website. In fact I bet lots of your customers only deal with you via your website. This means the only glimpse of your products before they buy are the pictures you put online.

With all that in mind can I suggest you hire a professional to do this for you? Simpler, better and probably cheaper.

FWIW I work with a number of companies in the bridal industry (though if you want static shots of flowers I'm probably not the person you need) and some of my clients have found their editorial coverage increasing massively due to the use of professional images. One client who was paying a fortune for advertising suddenly found her products on the covers of magazines and being regularly included in the editorial pages.

[BTW are you Silkblooms.co.uk? See you at the WIM awards......]

 

[silkblooms]

I know nobody's going to listen to this but......

I'm assuming you make silk flower arrangements and I bet you are pretty good at it. From the little I know about this industry I assume the majority of your customers make at least first contact via your website. In fact I bet lots of your customers only deal with you via your website. This means the only glimpse of your products before they buy are the pictures you put online.

With all that in mind can I suggest you hire a professional to do this for you? Simpler, better and probably cheaper.

FWIW I work with a number of companies in the bridal industry (though if you want static shots of flowers I'm probably not the person you need) and some of my clients have found their editorial coverage increasing massively due to the use of professional images. One client who was paying a fortune for advertising suddenly found her products on the covers of magazines and being regularly included in the editorial pages.

[BTW are you Silkblooms.co.uk? See you at the WIM awards......]

Yes, we are www.silkblooms.co.uk

We won't be hiring a photographer as we take every day and we need to take them at short notice. We email ou customised products to our customers fora pproval before shipping them out so we don't have time to wait on a photographer who would probablty be part time. Besides, I'd much rather do the photos myself as I do enjoy it (even though I struggle with it a bit).

The pictures in our coming soon gallery are about as good as we've been able to achieve but I'd like to aim for better. We've found a few of our images in wedding magazines (but not the studio shots):

http://www.silkblooms.co.uk/index.php?main_page=coming_soon

 

[Garry Edwards]

1. How many flash heads should be firing when I take a shot of a bouquet? Is it just the head inside the softbox, above the table, like this? Or should there be another flash head in operation too?

As many as you are using. In your case, both of them. You would typically fit the receiver of the flash trigger set to the flash head fitted overhead. Any other flashes will fire as slaves, their sensors will 'see' the flash from the triggered light and fire instantaneously.

2. What sort of bulb should I use to sit in the centre of the beauty dish with the honeycomb? If you're saying to use this at as much distance as possible, then it must have to be either a flash head or very powerful light bulb?

You fit the beauty dish to your second flash head. We've moved away from bulbs.

3. The D70 goes down to ISO 200 and the D300 goes down to ISO 100. I much prefer the D70 as it's menu's are less complex than the D300 (which seems far too over complicated). I hate the colour settings in the D300 (standard, vivid, etc..). Would you say it's worth getting to know the D300 or should the D70 do as good a job for my purpose? It'd be good to re-sell the D300 to pay for some of this new gear that I need.

I don't know much about cameras so other people can give better advice than me - but the cameras are very similar to each other in that they both have the same size sensor, so I don't see how it can make a scrap of difference which one you use, as no special qualities are needed in the studio. What matters is the lens.

4. What colour of reflector would work best for flowers? The walls in the room are all white incidentally

.Either white or silver - experiment.

5. How do I know what neutral density filter will fit my lens?

If the size on the filter mount, say 67, is the same as on your lens mount, it will fit. But don't worry about a ND filter for now, I doubt whether you actually need one.

I don't know why you've been getting overexposed images with flash, but I think it's possible that you've had the camera set to a programme mode, meaning that the camera has metered for ambient light (because the camera can't meter for flash and doesn't even know it's there) with the result that you have massive overexposure caused by the flash. Use the camera on manual, set the shutter speed to a 1/125th and use whichever aperture works (but no larger than f/5.6 and no smaller than f/11) and away you go. I don't want to patronise you, but I'm not convinced that you understand how to use flash, and this article on setting up your camera to work with flash may help.

I know nobody's going to listen to this but......

I'm assuming you make silk flower arrangements and I bet you are pretty good at it. From the little I know about this industry I assume the majority of your customers make at least first contact via your website. In fact I bet lots of your customers only deal with you via your website. This means the only glimpse of your products before they buy are the pictures you put online.

With all that in mind can I suggest you hire a professional to do this for you? Simpler, better and probably cheaper.

Jonathan is right, and he is also right when he says that nobody is going to listen to him. I've been saying exactly the same thing for years, but I accept that there are a number of distinct problems when hiring a pro...
1. Some pros will take on literally any kind of work, whether they are capable of doing a good job or not, and they turn out rubbish that I would just move to trash - these people get pro photographers a bad name.
2. Some pros charge far too much, and price themselves out of the market, at least as far as small clients are concerned. I'm probably one of them
3. Sometimes, hiring a pro just isn't practical because of the very fast throughput of the work. It needs to be a photographer who is on site.

But, Jonathan is still right

 

[Ste Manns]

Why not attend one of Garrys studio learning days, or alternatively get a photographer in for a day to show you how its done? I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who would gladly help, I would if you aren't too far away.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Yes, we are www.silkblooms.co.uk

We won't be hiring a photographer as we take every day and we need to take them at short notice. We email ou customised products to our customers fora pproval before shipping them out so we don't have time to wait on a photographer who would probablty be part time.

It seems you have 2 distinct needs.

1. Ad hoc pictures of custom designs. There's no practical way to get this done professionally in time. But to be honest pretty much anything would do here. One option is get a big flashgun and fire it directly at the ceiling but there are many others - including using your phone

2. Proper pictures for your website and editorial use. For these you could really do with very clean white background images. I know the team at Wedding Ideas and I know that high quality white b/g images will drop onto their shopping pages very easily. Even with a large range of items I bet a professional could turn in a lot of work in a day. Which would also give you better images on your site than, say, Sarah's........

The pictures in our coming soon gallery are about as good as we've been able to achieve but I'd like to aim for better. We've found a few of our images in wedding magazines (but not the studio shots):

http://www.silkblooms.co.uk/index.php?main_page=coming_soon

Better than some I've seen. But TBH those are never going to appear in magazines. Generally underlit and lacking in shadows to give depth and 3d.

Garry used to run a course on product photography - maybe he will again.

But if you want stuff in context then I'm your man.....

[Hilariously, some of Sarah's flowers got cropped out of that shot when it appeared in Attire.....]

 

[Mahoneyd187]

That's a sales pitch if ever I heard one lol

 

[JonathanRyan]

That's a sales pitch if ever I heard one lol

Pah, that's nothing

 

[silkblooms]

I've just realised that both of our flash units are Prolinca 500's. They both adjust with sliders and the power of the flash is adjustable from 1/1 (full) to 1/4 (lowest). I've did a small experiment to show you what I mean by flash causing severe over exposure:

I've set this one flash unit up inside of the 70cm softbox and turned it to the lowest power. the other flash unit in the corner of the room is not switched on as I just wanted to see what exposure I get with the single unit. There is some daylight in the room and I appreciate that in an ideal world I'd be hoping to use 1/125 or 1/250 on f11 or f9. However, this would be the result:

To get anywhere near normal exposure I've had to go to crazy settings at 1/500 and f29:

......... which would be no good whatsoever as the colours are completely drained and the depth is flat and horrible.

Am I right to assume that the Elinchrom 500's are just too powerful for the job, or do I just need to mount it higher towards teh 10ft. ceiling?

If I were to set up the honeycomb and beauty dish then the exposure would be even worse. I could get it as far as three metres away from the subject.

P.S., Sarahs.... don't have a look in

 

[JonathanRyan]

Am I right to assume that the Elinchrom 500's are just too powerful for the job

Looks that way....

Try this....take off the softbox and put on a reflector dish then point the flash upwards towards the ceiling.

If I were to set up the honeycomb and beauty dish then the exposure would be even worse. I could get it as far as three metres away from the subject.

I don't understand that.

P.S., Sarahs.... don't have a look in

Hmmmmmm......I thought there was talk of them not being allowed to enter after winning 3 years on the run. Apparently they can though.

 

[arad85]

I've just realised that both of our flash units are Prolinca 500's. They both adjust with sliders and the power of the flash is adjustable from 1/1 (full) to 1/4 (lowest). I've did a small experiment to show you what I mean by flash causing severe over exposure:

...

Am I right to assume that the Elinchrom 500's are just too powerful for the job, or do I just need to mount it higher towards teh 10ft. ceiling?

Gosh. That's not a lot of range to adjust over (2 stops). You have a couple of alternatives as far as I can see:

• Neutral density gel of some description over the lights
• Neutral density filter over the camera (but that'll make composition/focusing difficult)
• New set of flash heads that adjust further

You don't want to move the lights further away. The softbox will only appear to get smaller and the light source then becomes harsher. I think you need to fix the problem at source and get the light output at a much lower level to the camera (my personal preference would be to move the Elinchroms on and get a couple of new lights.

I should say that I'm a budding product photographer with 1 weekends experience! I'm not yet happy with what I'm producing, but it is a start. I have just bought most of the bits and pieces Garry has suggested above (from Lencarta as it happens) together with some softboxes. To put some "meat" on what has been said above, here are 3 test images I took on Saturday as I started to play with the lights. First is a single flash unit with a 70x140cm softbox about 18" above the cushion (just out of shot and setup exactly like the photo Garry linked to with the overhead boom). Second is the same from above (without touching the power) and a second light to the left of camera with a 60x60 softbox about 2ft away (again just out of camera) and set to be "one stop down" (I have a lightmeter so can get the ratios I want) compared to the overhead light. The third shot just introduces a circular 80cm white reflector to camera right.

First image (overhead only)

second (overhead and from side)

Third (overhead, side and fill from white bounce)

Clearly, the third change is the most subtle, but it does kick some light back into the cushion and lift the brown end bit out of the shadows (or at least I think it does!).

To be clear, I'm not posting these as examples of how it should be done, more to show the effects of adding lights/reflectors into the mix.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Looking at that image, I see that you did indeed have the camera on manual - but you used the hotshoe flash too. That is defo not helping, you need a radio trigger.

Being able to reduce the output of the flash by just 2 stops is causing problems too. The Prolinca range of a few years ago was basically an economy Elinchrom, with less features and very limited power adjustment. Fortunately they discontinue them and replaced them with the D-Lite, which has a good range of adjustment. You wouldn't need anywhere near that 500 Ws of power even if they had a normal range of adjustment.

As Andy says, the answer is either ND gels over the lights or an ND filter over the lens, it's never perfect to use a filter on the lens because there is always some quality loss and some increase to the risk of lens flare, but in your case, using a kit lens, the image will be pretty dark when viewed through the viewfinder and the autofocus probably won't work - so, nd gels over the flash heads. They come in various strengths, I suggest 0.9 which is 3 stops. f/11 then effectively becomes f/32.

BTW, that Prolinca softbox isn't the best either, from memory it only has one layer of diffusion, it needs two. I bought one from fleabay once, threw it away as I didn't want to pass the problem onto another unsuspecting buyer You could improve it easily enough just by putting an additional, second layer of diffusion (plain white shower curtain is fine for this) a few inches behind the one that it has.

Andy - you're getting there. You can take over my role of unpaid lighting adviser soon

 

[arad85]

Thanks Garry More experimenting this weekend but still some way to go! Have to say having the right equipment helps. I've also just bought an Xrite ColorChecker Passport so I can get the colours right in post. Whilst I've only tested it on the desk in front of me, it really does appear to make getting the right colours (or at least pretty close to them) much more straight forward. The ability to make a custom camera profile for Lightroom appears to be excellent too!

Hadn't thought that an additional flash would be on - looks like you have an SB800 running TTL metering which would cause the over exposure as Garry says (camera would meter for the onboard flash, fire the flash and then the Elinchrom fires too). If you need the flash to be on to fire the Elinchroms put it into manual, lowest possible power and point it as far away as possible from the flowers.

 

[HoppyUK]

Why not attend one of Garrys studio learning days, or alternatively get a photographer in for a day to show you how its done? I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who would gladly help, I would if you aren't too far away.

Reading through all this, I think that's the best suggestion.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Reading through all this, I think that's the best suggestion.

Well, there are a couple of vacancies left for my last one of this year
and there are also vacancies on the one that Jonathan is running in Maidstone.

Mine is art nude and Jonathan's is on portrait, but lighting is lighting is lighting...
Someone did ask whether there are any plans to do another lighting day on product lighting. There aren't, the one we ran a year ago did fill up but only just and there probably isn't enough demand for another one.

 

[silkblooms]

I'm Glasgow based so as much as I'd love to attend I'm afraid it's a distance barrier for me.

I'll see what I can achieve with the priceless advice I've taken on board already. Step one for me is to pick up a radio trigger, a beauty dish with honeycomb and a couple of ND filters. I guess a peice of white nylon to use as an additional layer of fabric inside the softbox would be a good idea too.

Leave it with me. I'll pick this lot up online and post the results next week.

 

[HoppyUK]

I'm Glasgow based so as much as I'd love to attend I'm afraid it's a distance barrier for me.

I'll see what I can achieve with the priceless advice I've taken on board already. Step one for me is to pick up a radio trigger, a beauty dish with honeycomb and a couple of ND filters. I guess a peice of white nylon to use as an additional layer of fabric inside the softbox would be a good idea too.

Leave it with me. I'll pick this lot up online and post the results next week.

Bradford's only down the road

But you don't need a beauty dish and I wouldn't worry too much about a double-diffuser just yet, but if you want to even the light out a bit, Elinchrom makes a transluscent deflector which slides into the umbrella slot of your head. I'd be amazed if it doesn't have one, right next to the tube/bulb assembly, and this little jobbie just pushes in http://www.theflashcentre.com/elinchrom-translucent-deflector-with-rod-i249.html

You shouldn't need ND filters either, if you make sure the flash is on minimum power and your D300 on min ISO (Lo1 setting?). Not at this stage anyway, but maybe look to get an NDx4 (two stops) for the lens at some stage.

Good luck

 

[silkblooms]

I know nobody's going to listen to this but......

I'm assuming you make silk flower arrangements and I bet you are pretty good at it. From the little I know about this industry I assume the majority of your customers make at least first contact via your website. In fact I bet lots of your customers only deal with you via your website. This means the only glimpse of your products before they buy are the pictures you put online.

With all that in mind can I suggest you hire a professional to do this for you? Simpler, better and probably cheaper.

FWIW I work with a number of companies in the bridal industry (though if you want static shots of flowers I'm probably not the person you need) and some of my clients have found their editorial coverage increasing massively due to the use of professional images. One client who was paying a fortune for advertising suddenly found her products on the covers of magazines and being regularly included in the editorial pages.

[BTW are you Silkblooms.co.uk? See you at the WIM awards......]

Are you Weddings by Ryan? I get what you mean now by "see you at the WIM awards" I looked at your websites, your photography is just absolutely amazing!

Yeah, I think we'll attend this year as we've definitely gave Sarah a rin for her money this year. Besides, our flowers are much better than hers

See you there!

 

[JonathanRyan]

Are you Weddings by Ryan? I get what you mean now by "see you at the WIM awards" I looked at your websites, your photography is just absolutely amazing!

That's me. Thank you

 

[silkblooms]

That's me. Thank you

I'll vote for you I think Sarah's must sit behind a proxy server voting, 24/7 for a full month to win this award

I've purchased some new equipment which is en route. Just buying it a bit at a time and trying it as it comes in to see what results I get. The first few items I've ordered are the wireless trigger, some 0.9 ND gel sheets (which I'll cut and fit over the flash units) and I got a couple of those elinchrom deflectors you linked to.

I was about to buy a beauty dish and honeycomb but you say I don't need them? What would you say I should use instead? Maybe just a deflector and a translucent unbrella, pointing away and up towards the ceilling?

 

[Garry Edwards]

I was about to buy a beauty dish and honeycomb but you say I don't need them?

And I say that you do need them, or at least that they're the ideal tool to skim across the surface at an acute angle, adding highlights and shadows.

An umbrella or softbox would give exactly the opposite to the effect you need. A standard reflector fitted with a honeycomb would be cheaper and would give a suitable effect if you had the space to get it far enough away - but you don't.

 

[silkblooms]

And I say that you do need them, or at least that they're the ideal tool to skim across the surface at an acute angle, adding highlights and shadows.

An umbrella or softbox would give exactly the opposite to the effect you need. A standard reflector fitted with a honeycomb would be cheaper and would give a suitable effect if you had the space to get it far enough away - but you don't.

I will get one. I like the sound of this effect with the light skimming the surface, adding highlights. I'll get an Elinchrom fit with honeycomb. Thanks Garry. What diameter should I buy if I have about three metres of distance from subject?

 

[Garry Edwards]

I will get one. I like the sound of this effect with the light skimming the surface, adding highlights. I'll get an Elinchrom fit with honeycomb. Thanks Garry. What diameter should I buy if I have about three metres of distance from subject?

I suggest the 70cm one in Silver, although it's far from cheap
I think you'll find that they don't make a honeycomb for it, but you can fit the Lencarta honeycomb to it.

 

[silkblooms]

I suggest the 70cm one in Silver, although it's far from cheap
I think you'll find that they don't make a honeycomb for it, but you can fit the Lencarta honeycomb to it.

That is pretty expensive, especially without the honeycomb. I know you hate eBay but this looks like a good buy:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elinchrom...922?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0565b002

What you think?

 

[Garry Edwards]

That is pretty expensive, especially without the honeycomb. I know you hate eBay but this looks like a good buy:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elinchrom...922?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0565b002

What you think?

I don't hate Ebay, I just hate some of the sellers who rip people off on there...
Speaking of which, that isn't a beauty dish it's a honeycomb for a beauty dish and they're charging £106.41 + £18 postage for it. The Lencarta one is £60 plus nothing for postage...

 

[silkblooms]

I don't hate Ebay, I just hate some of the sellers who rip people off on there...
Speaking of which, that isn't a beauty dish it's a honeycomb for a beauty dish and they're charging £106.41 + £18 postage for it. The Lencarta one is £60 plus nothing for postage...

Yup, noticed that after I'd posted. Expensive pieces of kit, I'll go get 'em. Hope they're worth it

 

[Mirus Lux]

Having read through this entire thread and seen the effort and advice that has been given I must say I am surprised at the final result.

I fully appreciate that the cost of hiring in a pro photographer can seem a lot. However the op is looking for images to show off to clients their beautiful work.

The way I read it, and commendable as it is, the op wishes to try to get the shots done as cheaply as possible themselves.

The time spent researching and practicing and buying stuff off of eBay could have all been saved by getting a pro in.

To me its like a customer wanting silk flowers coming to the op and asking for all your ideas then wandering off home via Wilkinsons to buy the cheapest flowers and making a hash of the job themselves. The op knows their flowers would blown the clients attempt out the water...

Bite the bullet hire a pro for a day for some set shots of your most popular and creative arrangements to be used in your marketing and on your website. It will be money and time well spent.

Would you send out an arrangement to a client not looking quite right? No (should be the answer) so why would you advertise mediocre images as clients will not even stop to enquire you are probably pushing away business.

I am sorry for the slight rant but this is why there are specialist photographers. Someone comes to you for your knowledge advice and creativity, you should do the same for your images.

 

[silkblooms]

Having read through this entire thread and seen the effort and advice that has been given I must say I am surprised at the final result.

I fully appreciate that the cost of hiring in a pro photographer can seem a lot. However the op is looking for images to show off to clients their beautiful work.

The way I read it, and commendable as it is, the op wishes to try to get the shots done as cheaply as possible themselves.

The time spent researching and practicing and buying stuff off of eBay could have all been saved by getting a pro in.

To me its like a customer wanting silk flowers coming to the op and asking for all your ideas then wandering off home via Wilkinsons to buy the cheapest flowers and making a hash of the job themselves. The op knows their flowers would blown the clients attempt out the water...

Bite the bullet hire a pro for a day for some set shots of your most popular and creative arrangements to be used in your marketing and on your website. It will be money and time well spent.

Would you send out an arrangement to a client not looking quite right? No (should be the answer) so why would you advertise mediocre images as clients will not even stop to enquire you are probably pushing away business.

I am sorry for the slight rant but this is why there are specialist photographers. Someone comes to you for your knowledge advice and creativity, you should do the same for your images.

I appreciate what you're saying but our goal is not to simply produce a portfolio of a few images for marketing. Our goal is to product this level of quality and professionalism throughout all of our product images. This should not be too difficult to achieve as we aim to set up a static arrangement with lights, subject and equipment in the same position for every shoot. Once we find a setup that gives the professional results (and we will find it) then we're good to go with all of our product images.

I see this as an investment. Purchasing triggers, filters, beauty dishes, honeycombs, flash units or whatever is needed will be money well spent. I know what you're saying but we would prefer to achieve the best possible results, not by employing a photographer, but by learning and investing in equipment.

It might seem like we're getting nowhere but we will get there. Wait and see the results when our new equipment arrives, then we can take it from there.

 

[silkblooms]

I suggest the 70cm one in Silver, although it's far from cheap
I think you'll find that they don't make a honeycomb for it, but you can fit the Lencarta honeycomb to it.

OK, I think I've bought everything in the list now. I just made the purcahse on the 70cm one in Silver and the Lencarta honeycomb, which complete with the ND filters, trigger and deflectors should see us well on the way. I'll post some test shots when I've got set up. Thanks for all your help so far.