Focus test - strange colouration ?

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Ben
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I was testing my new lens for focusing accuracy - looks pretty good. But I did notice some strange colouration:

The lines to the left of the focus point are reddish and to the right are greenish ?

Tried with two lenses and got similar results both time....

Can anybody explain this ?

test-1.jpg
 
Can't really notice the colour casts you mention but I am slightly colour blind to low shades of magenta and cyan.

Could simply be an optical property because lenses are designed to come to a focus at a certain point and that is where CA is at its lowest.

Different colours focus at slightly different points.

If the lenses are OOF then the colours could focus at different points and give rise to the colours you mention - I suppose.
 
It's CA. You see it a lot in focus tests at close distance which take the lens a long way out of it's optimum operating range.

For that reason, shooting really close and testing for focus accuracy is likely to push the system into showing errors that are probably not there at normal shooting distance.

Canon recommend 50x focal length. I would say anything less than 30x is dangerous territory. Those test charts you download from the web are notoriously misleading.
 
Those test charts you download from the web are notoriously misleading.

:clap:

Yep, so many "false positives" are generated by this.

Nikon used to (they may still do) have a service code for cameras sent in "focus errors" found by these - the repair code was "NABFTC" (Not Another Bloody Focus Test Chart).
 
Well there you go - this was taken at about 1m so about 15x focal length.

Knew someone would know the answer... :thumbs:

The problem is that I am an engineer and that as well as just looking through lenses I also look at them like this. So whilst the focus test might be misleading, it has also taught me something about CA and close up focusing.
 
Well there you go - this was taken at about 1m so about 15x focal length.

Knew someone would know the answer... :thumbs:

The problem is that I am an engineer and that as well as just looking through lenses I also look at them like this. So whilst the focus test might be misleading, it has also taught me something about CA and close up focusing.

Google "uncorrected spherical aberation" and "focus shifts" and you'll be able to figure out why focus test charts are literally not worth the paper they are printed on.
 
i posted this in another thread, but is this what causes the same colour effect in the image below ?

img_7733.png
 
i posted this in another thread, but is this what causes the same colour effect in the image below ?

img_7733.png

No. I saw that pic before and I can't work it out. It looks more like a digital/sensor type problem than an optical one. Maybe some kind of banding issue? :thinking:
 
No. I saw that pic before and I can't work it out. It looks more like a digital/sensor type problem than an optical one. Maybe some kind of banding issue? :thinking:

I think its CA - banding would horizontal or vertical, but this follows the slant in the path.

Probably been exagerated by re-sizing and over-sharpening (file is horrible over-sharpened)

Odd one though - would quite like to see that raw file!
 
I think its CA - banding would horizontal or vertical, but this follows the slant in the path.

Probably been exagerated by re-sizing and over-sharpening (file is horrible over-sharpened)

Odd one though - would quite like to see that raw file!

I can't work it out, but I don't think it's optical, even though shooting into the sun like that is tricky.

Is that the path out of focus we can see under the green? I don't think it's that either! And the break line is too sharp.

Here's another crazy idea. Some form of digital corruption and what we've got is actually part of another image overlaid :thinking: :gag: :lol:
 
thank you guys for the feedback - i will post the raw file tonight when i get home so you can take a closer look.

this "banding" is visible with two of the faster lenses i own - the 100mm f2.8 macro (non l variant) and the 135mm f2 l.

it seems to be only visible in specific circumstances and in the other thread i started in the main talk photography forum you can see the effect is gone seconds later.

if it makes any odds, the camera body used is a 500d.
 
thank you guys for the feedback - i will post the raw file tonight when i get home so you can take a closer look.

this "banding" is visible with two of the faster lenses i own - the 100mm f2.8 macro (non l variant) and the 135mm f2 l.

it seems to be only visible in specific circumstances and in the other thread i started in the main talk photography forum you can see the effect is gone seconds later.

if it makes any odds, the camera body used is a 500d.

Can you post other images in the child sequence? I want to see if the green bit 'fits' with an area from another image. I'm sticking with digital corruption ;)

The rainbow effect on your other thread just looks like an oil/petrol on tarmac thing, but it could be anything.

If there is something wrong of an optical nature happening, it will be consistent and could be replicated shooting into the light, as you have done with both problem examples. Optical problems are often f/number dependent, especially at low f/numbers.
 
cuthbert - its definately CA, I had a look - there is purple fringing in front of the focus point around the blown highlights, and green CA behind the focus point:

curthberts-ca.jpg
 
thank you very much puddleduck for taking the time to check out the images. when people talk about CA, i've always thought it meant the purple fringing you get around high contrast edges (like branches against a bright sky).

thanks again, i really appreciate it.
 
thank you very much puddleduck for taking the time to check out the images. when people talk about CA, i've always thought it meant the purple fringing you get around high contrast edges (like branches against a bright sky).

thanks again, i really appreciate it.

Haha! I have been talking about something completely different. Wrong end of the stick entirely! Apologies :gag:
 
:clap:

Yep, so many "false positives" are generated by this.

Nikon used to (they may still do) have a service code for cameras sent in "focus errors" found by these - the repair code was "NABFTC" (Not Another Bloody Focus Test Chart).

They may well be be annoyed but there are some good ones out there for testing focus, done by people with some understanding how the AF works to avoid false positives. This one for example by Jeffrey Friedl even contributed to LensAlign. I used Jeffrey's chart after a lot of frustration using the other ones out there and the do work quite well.
 
They may well be be annoyed but there are some good ones out there for testing focus, done by people with some understanding how the AF works to avoid false positives. This one for example by Jeffrey Friedl even contributed to LensAlign. I used Jeffrey's chart after a lot of frustration using the other ones out there and the do work quite well.

There is lots of good advice on the web about focus testing, including on here (search focus micro adjustment) but the link you have posted is not amongst it. It is shot at too close a distance, and angled, and will lead to the sort of problems that Puddleduck refers to.

You don't need any special chart, in fact it's better if you don't use one, and the LensAlign thing is, frankly, a $180 con.

The advice here from Canon's Chuck Westfall is as close to an officially recommended procedure as you'll get http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0812/tech-tips.html Second question down.
 
There are two types of chromatic aberration (CA), lateral and longitudinal. Lateral CA is caused by the prism effect that splits colours and is caused by different wavelengths of light refracting at different angles. This means that you get colour fringing at the image edges. Lenses can be corrected with special elements, and any remaining CA can be easily corrected in post processing, so easily in fact that some cameras have CA correction built in.
Longitudinal CA shows up as magenta fringing where the subject is in front of the focus point, and cyan fringing where the subject is behind the point of focus.
The latter is notoriously difficult to eliminate even in relatively high quality glass. You can reduce it by stopping down to a smaller aperture, thereby increasing the depth of focus.

Purple fringing where high contrast boundaries exist is another problem that is a complex interaction between sensor and lens coating. It exists mainly in lower priced or older lens designs and modern digital coating can all but eliminate it.
 
There are two types of chromatic aberration (CA), lateral and longitudinal. Lateral CA is caused by the prism effect that splits colours and is caused by different wavelengths of light refracting at different angles. This means that you get colour fringing at the image edges. Lenses can be corrected with special elements, and any remaining CA can be easily corrected in post processing, so easily in fact that some cameras have CA correction built in.
Longitudinal CA shows up as magenta fringing where the subject is in front of the focus point, and cyan fringing where the subject is behind the point of focus.
The latter is notoriously difficult to eliminate even in relatively high quality glass. You can reduce it by stopping down to a smaller aperture, thereby increasing the depth of focus.

Purple fringing where high contrast boundaries exist is another problem that is a complex interaction between sensor and lens coating. It exists mainly in lower priced or older lens designs and modern digital coating can all but eliminate it.


Longitudinal CA is sometimes also referred to as 'bokeh fringing'. It is very hard to post-process out of the image, unlike lateral CA, which is relatively easy to correct for. The bokeh fringing seems to be more of an issue with digital than film, suggesting an interaction with the micro-lenses of the sensor and the sensor buckets themselves coming into play. I have seen this effect most noticeably using older film lenses with a DSLR (e.g. an old 300mm f2.8 Nikkor), an effect that reduces considerably on stopping down.

This suggests the angle of the light hitting the sensor is relevant. So you would also expect this more on full-frame and on full-frame lenses being used on crop-sensor bodies.

FWIW, I have only seen this on my E-3 using legacy lenses (e.g. Nikkor 300/2.8, Zuiko OM 350/2.8). None of the Zuiko Digital lenses I have/have had seem to have this problem with the exception of the 50mm macro - which can slightly show this behaviour in extremis.

Bokeh fringing is a real pain and severely limits your ability to crop.

Andy
 
There is lots of good advice on the web about focus testing, including on here (search focus micro adjustment) but the link you have posted is not amongst it. It is shot at too close a distance, and angled, and will lead to the sort of problems that Puddleduck refers to.

Hmm what sort of problems then? I wonder if you actually read what Jeffrey said in his post (he had a rather problematic 70-200 and that chart was born as the one to aid that lens) and why his chart is slightly different.

It needs to be angled (just like LensAlign is) and the reason that this chart actually works better than majority of the others is that focusable targets are more contrasty than the rulers (they are black and the rulers are very light grey). The target is provided with several densities to be printed on a variety of printers so that the light grey parts are barely visible and will not trigger AF lock on.

Also "focus micro adjustment" and AF tests are not the same thing - not to me at least (having D200 I don't care about adjustments but do care about AF working properly). Those DIY test charts in no way are usable for precision tuning of AF but to me they are useful to discover whether a lens I have has a significant AF problems or not. Whatever you may say about the usability of this particular one, my personal experience says otherwise having had troubles with Nikkor 50mm f1.4 AFD wide open (with AF) - this chart helped me to understand that it was backfocusing (even though it was only a few mm). Having since found a good version of this lens that works perfectly with that chart help.

Of course it is all personal. It seems that it is of no use to you or Andy but it certainly was of use to me hence why I shared this.
 
and the LensAlign thing is, frankly, a $180 con.

The cheapest version is $79 - not such a large amount really. But it is of little use to those just testing the AF not doing micro adjustments...
 
Hmm what sort of problems then? I wonder if you actually read what Jeffrey said in his post (he had a rather problematic 70-200 and that chart was born as the one to aid that lens) and why his chart is slightly different.

It needs to be angled (just like LensAlign is) and the reason that this chart actually works better than majority of the others is that focusable targets are more contrasty than the rulers (they are black and the rulers are very light grey). The target is provided with several densities to be printed on a variety of printers so that the light grey parts are barely visible and will not trigger AF lock on.

Also "focus micro adjustment" and AF tests are not the same thing - not to me at least (having D200 I don't care about adjustments but do care about AF working properly). Those DIY test charts in no way are usable for precision tuning of AF but to me they are useful to discover whether a lens I have has a significant AF problems or not. Whatever you may say about the usability of this particular one, my personal experience says otherwise having had troubles with Nikkor 50mm f1.4 AFD wide open (with AF) - this chart helped me to understand that it was backfocusing (even though it was only a few mm). Having since found a good version of this lens that works perfectly with that chart help.

Of course it is all personal. It seems that it is of no use to you or Andy but it certainly was of use to me hence why I shared this.

I appreciate your posts Alexey. I am familiar with all the links you have posted and numerous others, and I have tried just about every test method, including fabricating something similar to the LensAlign thing. That works well of course, but is just massively overblown for what is essentially a very simple task. For example, the 'laser' alignment feature is nothing more than glorified pseudo-science to justify a silly price tag - it's just not necessary and actually makes it much harder to set up.

In the end, I got the most reliable and I think accurate AF using a sheet of newpaper taped to the patio door, following the procedure outlined in the Chuck Westfall link and noting his comments. It's rough science but good science and appropriate science. If you want to add a three-dimensional aspect to that in order to see where the AF point is, then including an angled rule in a similar set up, which is all the LensAlign thing does, is easily done.

The problems with those test targets you download off the web are that they have to be shot at too close a distance, and the target is angled. You may say that the angle makes no difference but it is building in a potential error for no reason. At least the LensAlign device avoids that.

But the main problem is the shooting distance, and people are tempted to shoot close in order to minimise depth of field in the mistaken belief that this will better reveal what is going on. Fine, except that it doesn't, or very often it doesn't. Focusing systems all have tolerances and the final setting is always a compromise between shooting distance and focal length. Unless you are testing a macro lens, it is essential to shoot at a real world distance. If you don't, by optimising a lens for close up performance you will quite likely throw it out at normal range. LensAlign recommend 25x focal length, mainly for practical reasons, and I think that's probably reasonable, especially with longer lenses.

I have just got a 5D2 with micro AF adjustment and found that, on the 24-105L for example, that the optimum AF micro-adjust varied by about +/- 5 even at a range of normal focusing distances, and by a similar amount according to focal length. I then chose a mid setting of +6 which means I should never be very far out and either way we are talking about extremely fine levels of adjustment here - in reality I'm never going to get near that level of accuracy (we're talking mms) and neither is it necessary. I found a similar amount of tolerance with my 70-200L, and it shifted again with a teleconverter attached.

The danger of course, and this is the thing that curses the manufacturer's service departments, is that lenses tested inappropriately and claimed to be wrong, are sent back for calibration. They are then found to be fine when properly checked, and returned to the customer with an invoice. The customer then does the test again, repeating the old errors, and quickly ends up very unhappy.

Let me be clear though. The LensAlign thing is good, no doubt about that - it is just a ludicrous price for something you don't want or need. It's the smaller, angled targets shot close up that are the problem.

The cheapest version is $79 - not such a large amount really. But it is of little use to those just testing the AF not doing micro adjustments...

And they do another one for $249. Sure it works, but so does the Chuck Westfall method - it's easier, and costs nothing.
 
Thanks Richard for a great and detailed post. I do still have a few comments :)

That works well of course, but is just massively overblown for what is essentially a very simple task. For example, the 'laser' alignment feature is nothing more than glorified pseudo-science to justify a silly price tag - it's just not necessary and actually makes it much harder to set up.

I agree - never could justify it for myself even their cheapest version not even saying about this laser alignment gimmicks.

In the end, I got the most reliable and I think accurate AF using a sheet of newpaper taped to the patio door, following the procedure outlined in the Chuck Westfall link and noting his comments. It's rough science but good science and appropriate science. If you want to add a three-dimensional aspect to that in order to see where the AF point is, then including an angled rule in a similar set up, which is all the LensAlign thing does, is easily done.

Chuck procedure is great and simple and work very well for what it is intended - which is for setting up micro focus adjustments. I will even use it when I finally upgrade my D200 to something with AF adjustments. But to simply judge the lens AF accuracy or investigate the AF back/front focusing on the cameras without focus adjustments - his approach is not really applicable. I did say that I don't think all those DIY charts will be immediately useful for precise focus alignments but more for diagnosing the lens problems which is what I personally used them for.

But the main problem is the shooting distance, and people are tempted to shoot close in order to minimise depth of field in the mistaken belief that this will better reveal what is going on. Fine, except that it doesn't, or very often it doesn't. Focusing systems all have tolerances and the final setting is always a compromise between shooting distance and focal length. Unless you are testing a macro lens, it is essential to shoot at a real world distance. If you don't, by optimising a lens for close up performance you will quite likely throw it out at normal range. LensAlign recommend 25x focal length, mainly for practical reasons, and I think that's probably reasonable, especially with longer lenses.

I do still partially disagree with this a bit if I may ;)

Making a 50mm lens with focusing distance starting at 40cm and then stating that AF accuracy should not be tested on anything closer than 2.5 meters because AF tolerance is not great is not something I'd agree entirely with. The real world distance is also depending on the shooting style and it does not have to be macro lens to use say 50mm lens a meter away from a subject. There is also a factor of the aperture - the 50mm f/1.4 I was testing had tiny DOF opened wide at anything closer than a few meters so any AF shifts were very noticable. I guess it also may depend on primes vs. zooms - I'd expect better accuracy from primes across all focusing range.

The danger of course, and this is the thing that curses the manufacturer's service departments, is that lenses tested inappropriately and claimed to be wrong, are sent back for calibration. They are then found to be fine when properly checked, and returned to the customer with an invoice. The customer then does the test again, repeating the old errors, and quickly ends up very unhappy.

Very true. I am trying to test every new lens I get asap because of the fact that it is easier in most cases to return it to the place of purchase for a replacement than dealing with manufacturers service departments. However, some authorised repair centers like Fixation do a fantastic job (at least in my very few brief encounters with them).
 
The danger of course, and this is the thing that curses the manufacturer's service departments, is that lenses tested inappropriately and claimed to be wrong, are sent back for calibration. They are then found to be fine when properly checked, and returned to the customer with an invoice. The customer then does the test again, repeating the old errors, and quickly ends up very unhappy.

This is the problem - someone buys (for example) a Sigma 30mm. Tests it inappropriately (due the all rhe other "false positives" due to poor testing) and you get into a feedback loop of poor tests->returns->more poor testing->another return.
 
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