Frustrating!

Wobbler

Wobbler

Messages
585
Name
Dan
Edit My Images
Yes
:nono::nono::nono:


I shoot a lot of actors - casting headshots, that type of thing. It's a fairly competitive market, but I do OK - I've been doing it for long enough that I have established good relationships with quite a few theatrical agents, who like my work and send their artists to me. Others come to me because they have seen a friends' shoot and liked it, or they have seen my website - regardless, they've seen my work and like it, so they call me instead of one of the hundreds of others out there.

Why is it, then, that when ordering their images, some of them see fit to start telling me where they want it cropped, or to 'not have that shadow too dark' or whatever? Surely they like other examples of my work, and that's why they have come to me in the first place? Because they like how I do things?


Sorry, rant over.
 
I guess they can't be bothered to do it themselves or there used to being able to ask this. Charge them extra for the edits :thumbs:
 
Look up Dunning-Kruger. It will go a long way to explaining why they think they know better than you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

In short, those with very little skill in a given field have a tendency to overestimate their competence, those who excel in a given field have a tendency to underate their own performance. Everybody has taken a few photos, you do the maths.
 
Squawk said:
Look up Dunning-Kruger. It will go a long way to explaining why they think they know better than you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

In short, those with very little skill in a given field have a tendency to overestimate their competence, those who excel in a given field have a tendency to underate their own performance. Everybody has taken a few photos, you do the maths.
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I'm loving that...it makes some things much clearer :D
 
Wobbler I feel your pain - I'm a florist and virtually every day there will be a customer who thinks they know how to 'do' the flowers better than me!! Having been in this job for quite a few years I think I am probably able to say with conviction that a red rose would look vile in the middle of a yellow bouquet:eek: think of eggs & ketchup and you see what I mean!! To a certain extent you have to grit your teeth and give them what they want but draw the line at anything that could affect your reputation. Obviously there is the extra charge for lots of faffing about - we call it the PO Tax:thumbs:
 
I'm in the design world and my clients will frequently tell me what they don't like once a design has been produced, they usually preface this with "I'm not a designer but..."

My attitude is that if I feel very strongly about something then I will justify my decision, if I think they are talking b*llocks then I will tell them and sometimes, just sometimes the suggestion they make is a good one and I take it on board.

At the end of the day you need to remember who is paying the invoice!
 
kickstart said:
At the end of the day you need to remember who is paying the invoice!
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...and why. They are paying me because they (or their agent) likes what I shoot. I politely tell them to **** off, let me sort out the pics, let your agent get the work, and you go and do your bit...then it all works nicely! :)
 
Wobbler said:
...and why. They are paying me because they (or their agent) likes what I shoot. I politely tell them to **** off, let me sort out the pics, let your agent get the work, and you go and do your bit...then it all works nicely! :)
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But they will be told how to act by a director ;)
 
I feel your pain!

I just looked through your site by the way. It looks good, professional and friendly with some great portraits. I'm nor surprised you do well.

Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions?

Do you tend to use the same lighting set up? if so what is it?

Do you tell the actors exactly how to stand and how to tilt their head or position their hands? or do you just let the actor pose as they wish and shoot that?
 
ShawWellPete said:
I feel your pain!

I just looked through your site by the way. It looks good, professional and friendly with some great portraits. I'm nor surprised you do well.

Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions?

Do you tend to use the same lighting set up? if so what is it?

Do you tell the actors exactly how to stand and how to tilt their head or position their hands? or do you just let the actor pose as they wish and shoot that?
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Let actors pose as they wish? Good God no! Their posture tends to be shocking (obviously, most of them sleep through the 'Alexander technique' lecture...) - I pretty much tell them exactly how to sit, turn head, tilt head etc

Lighting technique - I adjust light position depending on the shape of face I am shooting, though the basic setup is often the same: One softbox, above and to the side of the subject (which side I lead with will depend on the face) maybe some light on the background, sometimes light on the hair, depending on colour/backdrop etc

Thanks for the comments on the site...though I really should update the images, they've been the same for ages!
 
Wobbler said:
Let actors pose as they wish? Good God no! Their posture tends to be shocking (obviously, most of them sleep through the 'Alexander technique' lecture...) - I pretty much tell them exactly how to sit, turn head, tilt head etc

Lighting technique - I adjust light position depending on the shape of face I am shooting, though the basic setup is often the same: One softbox, above and to the side of the subject (which side I lead with will depend on the face) maybe some light on the background, sometimes light on the hair, depending on colour/backdrop etc

Thanks for the comments on the site...though I really should update the images, they've been the same for ages!
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thanks for the info

:thumbs:
 
Squawk said:
Look up Dunning-Kruger. It will go a long way to explaining why they think they know better than you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
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Crumbs, that's an interesting link indeed, cheers for posting :thumbs:

This bit really made me chuckle because.....

"1: Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill.

2: Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others.

3: Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy."

..it sounds like every teacher I've ever had at secondary school :lol:
 
Tomas Whitehouse said:
Crumbs, that's an interesting link indeed, cheers for posting :thumbs:

This bit really made me chuckle because.....

"1: Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill.

2: Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others.

3: Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy."

..it sounds like every teacher I've ever had at secondary school :lol:
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Sounds like a few photographers I know too! :D:D:D
 
kickstart said:
if I think they are talking b*llocks then I will tell them and sometimes, just sometimes the suggestion they make is a good one and I take it on board.

At the end of the day you need to remember who is paying the invoice!
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I'm a freelance editor and get this sort of thing all the time, though a lot of the time if my name isn't going to be on the credits and if it doesn't look too ***** then I'll just let it go, the producer will wander off feeling they've had some 'creative' input I will have had a quiet life, saved my sanity and can happily look forward to the cheque at the end of the month :D
 
Wobbler said:
...and why. They are paying me because they (or their agent) likes what I shoot. I politely tell them to **** off, let me sort out the pics
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But doesn't it mean that they don't actually like what you have shot?

No offence meant but if someone was paying me to do a job but went away unhappy with the result...... well put it this way your attitude to your customers ain't the same as mine.
 
TheBionicDan said:
But doesn't it mean that they don't actually like what you have shot?

No offence meant but if someone was paying me to do a job but went away unhappy with the result...... well put it this way your attitude to your customers ain't the same as mine.
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err no, it doesn't mean they don't like what I've shot - at this point, all they have seen is proofs, which for me means largely unretouched images - pretty much straight from camera, just a levels tweak usually. Proofs don't represent finished print quality, they're practically unedited.

When they have picked their shots, and I've edited them and sent them out, so they then have finished prints, they're happy. ;)
 
So if they're proofs and your going to edit them anyway, why the moaning when a client wants them edited in a specific way?

Sorry don't understand the original post. ;)
 
Because their you're customer?

That's the problem when you mix your passion or art with money... it's not always what you like that's important.
 
Wobbler said:
They do, of course...I pay a mechanic to service my car, but I don't tell him how to do it.:D
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I do

they want pictures that portray them in a certain light, they might now have explained that well to you so they ask you afterwards

I'd get it done instead of being defensive

- alll up to a point though, you trade on your rep too so don't do shoddy work because they ask for it
 
david1701 said:
I do

they want pictures that portray them in a certain light, they might now have explained that well to you so they ask you afterwards

We chat before the shoot about how they want to be portrayed...a bit pointless doing it after :D

I'd get it done instead of being defensive

I'm only defensive on here, not to the client. I explained to her that the crop she requested wouldn't look very good, and why ;)

- alll up to a point though, you trade on your rep too so don't do shoddy work because they ask for it
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One of the crops she asked for was unreal, it just looked stupid, it didn't work at all...I doubt she'd even like it when she saw it on print, and I'd expect her agent on the phone asking why I'd done a wierd crop on a nice shot, and end up having to do it again anyway.

It's a little besides the point - the bit I don't get is why would you go to a tog and then tell him how to edit? Surely you're only there because you approve of previous work...why get involved at all?
 
Wobbler said:
One of the crops she asked for was unreal, it just looked stupid, it didn't work at all...I doubt she'd even like it when she saw it on print, and I'd expect her agent on the phone asking why I'd done a wierd crop on a nice shot, and end up having to do it again anyway.

It's a little besides the point - the bit I don't get is why would you go to a tog and then tell him how to edit? Surely you're only there because you approve of previous work...why get involved at all?
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I think in many cases people want something, don't really know what they want but have a rough idea in their head. The challenge is convincing them they have some input and are getting what they want whilst you make the good decisions they pay you for. I think people often just need to be convinced they are getting their money's worth.

I think you have the right approach.
 
I would imagine that they picked you because you're body of work showed you could achieve a good end product.. not necessarily because they wanted the exact same images.


..
 
Nice work Dan. Few famous faces there..... Keep the good work.

I agree with you Dan. And as for Bionic Dan and his fisher Price kit. I would moan like a crossed dressed Jeremy Clarkson as well If I felt like Wobbler!!!!!

They come to you because you the best or good at what you do. Actors don't have a scooby bloodydoo... 2 of my friends are actors and have never visited Planet Earth!
 
gingerweasel said:
I would imagine that they picked you because you're body of work showed you could achieve a good end product.. not necessarily because they wanted the exact same images.
..
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They'll never be exactly the same though, that's impossible - but photographers do have their own style, whch would be similar to previous work. I always assumed that's the basis you get booked on.

TheBionicDan said:
I understand what you wrote I just don't understand your complaint
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Yes. Clearly. :bang:

TheBionicDan said:
and why you'd come on a public forum
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Well, I was ranting...I said as much.


TheBionicDan said:
to point out that you tell your clients to "politely F*** off" if they don't like what they are paying for.
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Yes, politely. I'm not going to get all stroppy with them about it, but neither am I going to be told how to edit my images by an actor who thinks she knows about it. This is going to sounds really arrogant lol - for that, I apologise, it's with the best of intentions...but usually, I know what they want/need better than they do. 99 times out of 100, the actor never even mentions editing, they just give me the order, I send the prints and they use them. I know they are happy with what I do and how I do it because they tell me, as do the agents, who are obviously happy as they continue to send me work.



:)
 
If a builder/joiner/plumber/kitchen fitter was doing work for you and you wanted something they didn't particularly like, would you be happy if they told you to ***** off and fit the kitchen they wanted to, no. The customer is always right.
 
Sam_G said:
If a builder/joiner/plumber/kitchen fitter was doing work for you and you wanted something they didn't particularly like, would you be happy if they told you to ***** off and fit the kitchen they wanted to, no. The customer is always right.
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It's more akin to hiring a bricklayer to build you a wall, based on his previous work, and then telling him how to mix the cement.

'The customer is always right' - that's such a nonsense statement. There are any number of situations where the customer is obviously not right...back in the days of film, I had a client insist I rate the film at 200 because his 'professional photographer' friend had told him that....even though I was shooting on 25 (agfa apx, anyone remember that? Lovely film...)...should I have done as he said?
 
I'm leaning towards Wobbler on this issue...
Photography isn't plumbing, carpentry or vehicle maintenance - it's an artistic visual medium affected by an individual's subjective interpretation...if you build a wall that's wrong - it's just wrong...photography isn't like that...
My Father used to be an actor and refused to let me do his PR photos as another photographer he used gave him the exact look he was after - I just made him look like my Dad...

You go to a chosen Photographer because you like the style he/she uses to portray you - because of reputation, previous experience etc. not because you can influence them to do what you want....the Photographer is the Trade-Professional, therefore they ultimately know what's best...if you don't like the finished product, then you get to umm and ahh a bit, but not during the process...
 
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