Fuel price, how does it affect you?

Fuel prices haven't really affected me apart from deciding that now is the time to buy a really stupidly over-engined car so as to get the most out of life before the oil actually runs out altogether...
To that end I have ordered a Ford Mustang GT (Bullitt special edition) 4.8l V8 with a Roush Supercharger (added by the German garage doing my Euro conversion), putting out approximately 465bhp...should do for starters...
 
When haulage companies are going bust by the day who is going to shift it then.:(

That's the position I'm rapidly approaching, I have a light haulage company, payload up to 3700kg, since christmas my fuel bill has risen by 25% but nobody wants to pay for it, so far i've absorbed it but if the rates don't go up soon i'll be working for Gordon Brown :razz:
 
The Gov has a rolling three year agreement that they will not increase tax on LPG (and that agreement has been in place for a number of years now).

Rolling agreement with who:shrug: not that I don't trust our government but if 50% of the cars in the UK suddenly converted to gas how long do you think that agreement would last.
 
Valve seat regression IS a problem on some engines, the ford zetec e engine used in whitewashes focus is one such engine that suffers even with an LPG capable head fitted. A good sign of the concern is uneven running at idle and the need to adjust the valve clearances earlier than normal.

Petrol engines need to start on petrol in order to generate the initial heat needed to vaporise the gas, the time taken to achieve LPG operation varies from system to system with liquid gas injection having a quicker change over time than the vapor injected type.
 
Rolling agreement with who:shrug: not that I don't trust our government but if 50% of the cars in the UK suddenly converted to gas how long do you think that agreement would last.


Info here:

3-year, rolling programme whereby any change of duty must be announced 3 years before its implementation
Guarantee that the current difference in tax between LPG and petrol (the 'duty differential') can change by only 1 penny per year for at least the next 3 years
Essentially, the Alternative Fuels Framework means that the 'half price' nature of LPG is virtually guaranteed for 3 years from every day that there is not an announcement from the government.
 
Try not to drive to fast or too far, not easy when you live in the Countryside and there's no public transport. I also use oil to heat my house, no gas round here, the price of which has doubled in the last few months. Used to pay about 35p / litre now pay about 70p and rising.:shake:
 
I have two new private jets, 2 new deluxe wives (it was a "buy one, get one free" offer) and I'm saving my stamps for a new palace.

So what's your problem ?


Abdul
arab-emoticon.gif

Only 2 jets? My problem is I havn't got the runway for mine. Oh, and 2 wives = double the cost in the divorce court. Paying for it is less complicated and cheaper in the long run ;) ;)
 
There's a huge focus on government (which is in some sense appropriate given the tax aspect), but the simple fact is that supply is not growing (around 85 million barrels/day for the last two years) meanwhile we have 2 billion new consumers wanting the Hollywood lifestyle. Rocketing demand + flat supply = higher prices.

At $130/barrel oil is 10p per cup. We pay £3 for a coffee. Oil is quite amazingly cheap for what it does, in comparison to what we're prepared to pay for other things.
 
i see the government are fearing a back bench revolt over the increases in road tax, it will hit the poorer motorist harder than those with more 'spare cash' whereas the government recon that no one will be 'worseoff'


WAKE THE **** UP DARLING!!!!!!!
 
WHY DONT EVERYONE DO A MASS STANDSTILL/BLOCKADES?
The government will soon change their tune then?
Half what we pay for a litre of fuel is fu****g tax?

This country is getting PATHETIC.
 
WHY DONT EVERYONE DO A MASS STANDSTILL/BLOCKADES?
The government will soon change their tune then?
Half what we pay for a litre of fuel is fu****g tax?

This country is getting PATHETIC.

because as normal members of ther public we do not have the power to blockade anything so any attempts to do so would be futile, the only people who did have the ability to blockade anything were the truck drivers but they have probably closed whatever hole in the law prevented them from moving them on.

nothing is going to make this government change its mind on anything as they do not look after the interests of the people they were elected to represent.


so we are not PATHETIC were are SCREWED :bat:
 
I use public transport 100% (95% of which is the train) so fuel price does not concern me in any great way. I agree with the point made that a high cost keeps people on their toes as regards to efficient usage.

However doing some maths, I managed to work out it'd cost me £10 - £15 to drive into Manchester for the day, this is including fuel, insurance, tax, long term maintenance costing, secure parking (which takes up a fair chunk).

Now on the train, it costs me £1.60 for a return!! On top of this I can be in work/at the shops in less time than I could driving, and I then have no worries as to leaving my car anywhere etc (not that I have one to leave anywhere! :p)

On a bit of a side note, it angers me to see people putting up so much resistance to congestion charging, at the end of the day....there is a good chance the whole country will end up with it in the next 10 years so why not have it now, and have £3billion from the TIF to bring the public transport system up to scratch?? That way no living within, or within 5 miles of the M60 would ever need a car for general commuting and 'normal' travelling within the city and suburbs!
 
why not have it now, and have £3billion from the TIF to bring the public transport system up to scratch??

because they'd spend the money on something else, despite all the green arguments the motor industry is a huge cash cow, if we all went to public transport where would the massive amount of revenue it generates come from

BP and Shell make massive profits paying millions in tax, £4 of every gallon of fuel sold is tax, a new car at £20,000 is about £4,000 tax, every secondhand car sold at a garage generates 17.5% of the profit in VAT, how many businesses nationwide employ people selling tyres making parts, importing parts all paying tax.

where would that money come from if we all got on the bus, without the car the country would be bankrupt
 
because they'd spend the money on something else, despite all the green arguments the motor industry is a huge cash cow, if we all went to public transport where would the massive amount of revenue it generates come from

BP and Shell make massive profits paying millions in tax, £4 of every gallon of fuel sold is tax, a new car at £20,000 is about £4,000 tax, every secondhand car sold at a garage generates 17.5% of the profit in VAT, how many businesses nationwide employ people selling tyres making parts, importing parts all paying tax.

where would that money come from if we all got on the bus, without the car the country would be bankrupt

You are forgetting though that billions go into maintaining and building new roads, into 'green' research...all because of cars. These could both be cut back on with fewer cars on the road!! It may be true to say the economy is being held up partially by motor related trades, however is this something you really want?? They are not something I would like to rely on as the green drive is getting bigger and bigger whether people like it or not. Another point on this subject, BP and Shell are international companies and only a small percentage of their oil production is for the motor industry. Lost revenue here would be increased by extra revenue from bus and train fuel...and lets be honest here, 2 of the countries biggest companies aren't going to go bust over night...they will adapt.

Cars are quite possibly the worst invention ever as far as humanity is concerned (aside weaponry etc!!) they pollute the Earth, they are slowly becoming one of the biggest killers worldwide.....I'm sure a lot of people would be happy with half as many on the road. The amount of wastage that goes on is beyond me and this is what really gets me. I can see why driving 4 people to London from Manchester would be efficient use of a car, however driving 1 person literally 2 minutes up the road to a job?? Until people start realising just why they spend so much on petrol then they will continue to moan. My housemate must put about £30 a week into his car.....not much but being a student its enough to complain about lol......but he never drives further than 5 miles from our house! £10 for a week bus ticket and he is covered by at least 6 buses an hour in each direction, its laughable.

I don't believe that the money would be spent on anything else, the plans are in place for exactly where it would be spent....what I would agree on is it not being spent very wisely. Half a billion £s to extend the tram network to the airport? Totally pointless as there is trains covering that route every 10 minutes all day, if they want to increase capacity buy into a few new trains/platforms at a fraction of the cost.
 
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I run a 18 month old Fait Panda on LPG. The conversion cost me £1400 12 months ago (which by my sums, based on my yearly milage, has already paid for itself). Current prices near me are 51.9p which is 12p more than when I had it converted, but as the car does around 45mpg (on petrol it does around 51mpg) anyway, it's not the end of the world.

It still worries me going forward though, peak oil is serious sh!t and I fear for bad times in the not so distant future!! :(
 
You are forgetting though that billions go into maintaining and building new roads, into 'green' research...all because of cars. These could both be cut back on with fewer cars on the road!! It may be true to say the economy is being held up partially by motor related trades, however is this something you really want?? They are not something I would like to rely on as the green drive is getting bigger and bigger whether people like it or not. Another point on this subject, BP and Shell are international companies and only a small percentage of their oil production is for the motor industry. Lost revenue here would be increased by extra revenue from bus and train fuel...and lets be honest here, 2 of the countries biggest companies aren't going to go bust over night...they will adapt.

Cars are quite possibly the worst invention ever as far as humanity is concerned (aside weaponry etc!!) they pollute the Earth, they are slowly becoming one of the biggest killers worldwide.....I'm sure a lot of people would be happy with half as many on the road. The amount of wastage that goes on is beyond me and this is what really gets me. I can see why driving 4 people to London from Manchester would be efficient use of a car, however driving 1 person literally 2 minutes up the road to a job?? Until people start realising just why they spend so much on petrol then they will continue to moan. My housemate must put about £30 a week into his car.....not much but being a student its enough to complain about lol......but he never drives further than 5 miles from our house! £10 for a week bus ticket and he is covered by at least 6 buses an hour in each direction, its laughable.

I don't believe that the money would be spent on anything else, the plans are in place for exactly where it would be spent....what I would agree on is it not being spent very wisely. Half a billion £s to extend the tram network to the airport? Totally pointless as there is trains covering that route every 10 minutes all day, if they want to increase capacity buy into a few new trains/platforms at a fraction of the cost.

congratulations on having such good public transport routes to use, not everyone can say the same.




i doubt everything raised from car tax, petrol tax etc is spent on the transport network, quite simply because if it was we would have the best maintained road system on the planet, which as the many potholes i drive over demonstarte clearly, we dont
 
When they start building buses to fit 6ft people with long legs, I'll start using them again.
 
congratulations on having such good public transport routes to use, not everyone can say the same.




i doubt everything raised from car tax, petrol tax etc is spent on the transport network, quite simply because if it was we would have the best maintained road system on the planet, which as the many potholes i drive over demonstarte clearly, we dont

Living near city centre Manchester I am glad to say I do have good public transport routes!! However I do know something of what it is like having no transport. My parents live in Mildenhall in Suffolk....the middle of no where and buses are shall we say...infrequent! There are some to Bury St Eds and Newmarket but they take ages...although to be honest with you, £ for mile they are actually cheap. Not being a driver this leaves me in a bit of a predicament whenever I visit but there isn't really any reason for me to leave the town anyway...

Perhaps you should contact your local authorities about the potholes in the road...some countries I've been to barely have tarmac!
 
so do trains
buses
aeroplanes
factorys
powerstations which power your beloved electric trains and trams



the list goes on...

everthing polutes the atmosphere, even cows

Yes, but the amount of pollution emitted per person per train/bus ride is a fraction of that of what a car does. I know it would be impossible to stop us damaging the atmosphere, but we can at least limit it.

Powerstations and factories are quite essential for us to maintain a certain standard of living. I fail to see how you can justify driving to the supermarket which for many people (who live in fairly (sub)urban areas) is never more than a 20 minute walk away. The majority of car journeys, as has been flashed at as in the news all to often, are wasted journeys that could easily be walked or done on public transport.

I am not totally against car travel, as some of you seem to think, however I am against blatant laziness and wastage. Living in a city centre, I see a lot more of that, and it is this I am referring to. I know very well that some people *have* to use a car to get to work etc, as my parents do.

If you can prove to me that 100 people driving 100 cars to work, is less damaging and less expensive than 100 people on 1 train....then I'll buy a car and drive to the city..
 
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Has anybody else thought of looking for a new job closer to home? I know it has, and still is, crossing my mind!!
 
Hoping the code works, here are some statistics for road usage in Scotland broken down by vehicle type, from 1984-2002. If they seem like small changes remember these are in 'billions' of miles. You can clearly see the worst culprit by far is the car.

Code:
In billions of road miles					
[b]"Vehicle type	"	"1984	"	"1990	"	"1995	"	"2001	"	2002[/b]
"Cars	"		"12,794	"	"17,476	"	"19,114	"	"20,766	"	21536
"Two-wheeled vehicles	"161	"	"121	"	"122	"	"159	"	178
"Buses		"	"258	"	"330	"	"303	"	"318	"	331
"Light goods vehicles	"1,351	"	"1,873	"	"2,383	"	"2,812	"	2913
"Heavy goods vehicles	"1,670	"	"1,932	"	"1,889	"	"1,987	"	2006
"Total	"		"16,234	"	"21,731	"	"23,811	"	"26,042	"	26964
 
culprit for what?

allowing people to get to work in time and in comfort?

I'd much rather use my car to get to work instead of waiting for 2 buses (if i'm going to the office) and being subjected to the poor conditions of the buses interior. Reduction of stress is also an important factor for me, in the car i can listen to my music in an environment thats acceptable to me.

While road miles from cars have increased, the emissions from from them have dropped considerably over the years and with the Euro 5 emissions upon us new cars emissions will fall again further.
Antique buses producing clouds of particulate matter don't do much for the lungs ;)
 
Post seems to have gone a tad astray, so would like to say that the fuel cost is affecting me only a little at te moment. Whilst I'm currently working in London, I can commute by bus train and tube @ around £70 per week. Neither the Discovery or the V70 2.5 Petrol Volvo do a great deal of moving during the week so only really filling both up once a month. 3 Montha ago, the Disco took £60 to fill, now it's a few pence short of £100 !!

However, would like to state that having a family of 5 with all three children under 8 makes shopping (for anything) and days out by public transport nigh on impossible. Whilst we have a reasonable bus and train service down here in my corner of Essex it isn't all encompasing. If I wanted to visit my parents in Suffolk, I'd have to bus and train to London. Walk or Taxi to another mainline station, take a combination of different trains to arrive at Lowestoft, then wait a week for another bus, or get a taxi to Henstead. Clearly this would take the best part of a day, with three kids plus luggage.....

Nothing anyone can say will convince me that this is a better alternative to jumping in the car for an hour and a half.

Single with fantastic public transport = Car as a "luxury Item"
Family in rural/suburban area with few local shops = Car as an absolute Essential....
 
culprit for what?

allowing people to get to work in time and in comfort?

The roads near you must be lovely....try driving into Manchester in a morning without cursing someone else!!

It is wrong to say emissions for cars have dropped, and that quote is very misleading. Emissions from newer cars are less indeed, however the majority of vehicles on the road are more than say 10 years old....and with the fact that car travel is on the increase it is quite clear emissions from cars are rising

Buses these days tend to actually be fairly new, its been a while since Ive been on, or indeed even seen one that has a registration which is of the old style before they introduced the new registration style. However, living in Manchester this could be expected, as it could for other large cities, and I'm not too sure about more rural areas! None the less, buses can take upto 40 cars off the road, so those fumes you speak of are a fraction of what 40 'antique' cars would produce to clog up your lungs!!
 
Has anybody else thought of looking for a new job closer to home? I know it has, and still is, crossing my mind!!

It's what any sensible person would do if they had a problem with petrol prices...although not always possible of course.

Nothing anyone can say will convince me that this is a better alternative to jumping in the car for an hour and a half.

Single with fantastic public transport = Car as a "luxury Item"
Family in rural/suburban area with few local shops = Car as an absolute Essential....

Summed up my belief pretty much perfectly there really! For any city dwellers car ownership is just that, a luxury.....and I don't believe they have any basis for complaint about prices. If you can't afford it, don't do it!

I wouldn't say living in semi rural areas car ownership is an absolute essential, what with all the major supermarkets doing free delivery on shopping, and people should be supporting their local shops anyway ;) But I do appreciate that with a family in tow a car is indeed a very useful tool to have. In your case it would be best to use the car as you seem distant from main transport links!
 
What my figures (quoted from the scottish office) show is that in the eighteen years from 1984 to 2002 the number of kilometers driven on scottish roads rose by more than 10 billion (that's ten thousand millions), there's no way emissions can be less now than then.
 
the last report I looked at listed the average age of the cars on the Uk's roads as being 6.9 years old, over that time we have gone through various emission restriction limits on the introduction of new cars into the worldwide market place which have halved the emissions with each change in legislation.

Don't take me the wrong way here, I've not said that emissions as a total aren't rising......my name isn't G W Bush ;) what I am saying though is the rise isn't as drastic as your miles figures would suggest. Actual emissions from motor vehicles are almost impossible to calculate in real life use. I would go as far as to say though that if roads were planned better and traffic lights turned off during off peak hours the emissions would be far less. A car will emit substantially more CO when pulling away from rest than it will cruising in at a steady speed.

I drive all over the north west on a daily basis, my work can't be done from one fixed point.....do I jump on a series of buses?

Have a look at the emissions from industry and compare that to the emissions from cars, you'll soon realise that the real nasty stuff is going more or less un noticed by the rest of the civilised world.

There is no way on this earth I'll resort to using public transport until it's

Cheaper
Punctual
Convenient
safe

:D
 
the last report I looked at listed the average age of the cars on the Uk's roads as being 6.9 years old, over that time we have gone through various emission restriction limits on the introduction of new cars into the worldwide market place which have halved the emissions with each change in legislation.

Halved the emissions PER UNIT. The number of units however, has massively increased. Result - no benefit from the "improvements". It's simply Jevon's Paradox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

There is no way on this earth I'll resort to using public transport until it's

Cheaper
Punctual
Convenient
safe

:D

That's assuming you have the choice - my bet is, you (we) won't have the luxury of choice. Not changing today or tomorrow, but within a decade. We have debt and a "service economy". China, India have actual money, and make things. In the future, which will OPEC be more keen to exchange their remaining oil for - China's trade surplus and real goods, or some financial advice and an IOU from the UK?
 
Re: #68

Public transport unsafe? I can't think of anyone known to me who's been injured or killed on public transport. Sadly, not the case for several non-professional drivers and/or their passengers.

Perception can be a funny thing . . .
 
I drive all over the north west on a daily basis, my work can't be done from one fixed point.....do I jump on a series of buses?

Have a look at the emissions from industry and compare that to the emissions from cars, you'll soon realise that the real nasty stuff is going more or less un noticed by the rest of the civilised world.

There is no way on this earth I'll resort to using public transport until it's

Cheaper
Punctual
Convenient
safe

:D

I am guessing your petrol is paid for or at least subsidised through your employer though?? Of course I wouldn't expect you to use public transport for that purpose!

I believe there are a lot of common misconceptions about public transport amongst drivers, despite what the news says, trains busses and trams are usually very punctual. The only exception perhaps being busses, but they have to contend with traffic. Living in a city area they are quite frequent anyway so the timetable can usually be ignored in favour of a few minutes wait!

As I have stated, it is also a damn sight cheaper than driving in the majority of circumstances....and with a bit of forward planning it can be very cheap!! 2 single tickets from Manchester to and from Ely (my long distance travel every couple of months) can be had for a total of about £25.....driving the petrol alone would cost twice as much as that!! Of course, having 2 or more people travelling then it will be more economic to drive.

I don't want people to abandon their cars totally, but I believe that a huge number of people could save a vast amount of money if they researched into all their options and chose the cheapest method. I mean you spend hours trying to save £20 on your insurance so why not save even more on petrol??

I know a lot of drivers are ignorant of public transport and won't give it a chance and thats their loss.....but each to their own I guess!! More seats on the train for me lol
 
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Re: #68

Public transport unsafe? I can't think of anyone known to me who's been injured or killed on public transport.

Maybe not known to you but there are many people injured or killed on or by public transport. My aunty was killed by a train in the fog. There was July 7th... and not to forget various train accidents over the years. I guess we can include cyclists who are knocked off by buses driving so close as well?

That said, I would add I had a pleasant surprise using Oxford Park and Ride service a little while ago. It was convenient, cheap, and frequent.
 
More seats on the train for me lol

Ever tried doing the Essex commute into London Liverpool St? My sister rarely gets a seat and once when she settled for sitting on the floor in a 1st class carriage the inspector tried to charge her an upgrade fee!!
 
You are forgetting though that billions go into maintaining and building new roads, into 'green' research...all because of cars. These could both be cut back on with fewer cars on the road!! It may be true to say the economy is being held up partially by motor related trades, however is this something you really want?? They are not something I would like to rely on as the green drive is getting bigger and bigger whether people like it or not. Another point on this subject, BP and Shell are international companies and only a small percentage of their oil production is for the motor industry. Lost revenue here would be increased by extra revenue from bus and train fuel...and lets be honest here, 2 of the countries biggest companies aren't going to go bust over night...they will adapt.

Cars are quite possibly the worst invention ever as far as humanity is concerned (aside weaponry etc!!) they pollute the Earth, they are slowly becoming one of the biggest killers worldwide.....I'm sure a lot of people would be happy with half as many on the road. The amount of wastage that goes on is beyond me and this is what really gets me. I can see why driving 4 people to London from Manchester would be efficient use of a car, however driving 1 person literally 2 minutes up the road to a job?? Until people start realising just why they spend so much on petrol then they will continue to moan. My housemate must put about £30 a week into his car.....not much but being a student its enough to complain about lol......but he never drives further than 5 miles from our house! £10 for a week bus ticket and he is covered by at least 6 buses an hour in each direction, its laughable.

I don't believe that the money would be spent on anything else, the plans are in place for exactly where it would be spent....what I would agree on is it not being spent very wisely. Half a billion £s to extend the tram network to the airport? Totally pointless as there is trains covering that route every 10 minutes all day, if they want to increase capacity buy into a few new trains/platforms at a fraction of the cost.

A nice sentiment, but who would volunteer to be the ones to give up driving so that the rest of (us) can have clearer roads to drive on...not me...
If motor transport hadn't been 'invented' we'd still be living in an insular, agrarian society where people seldom left the villages they were born in...I don't think anyone would seriously advocate that we turn back the clock 150 years apart from a few deluded tree-huggers...
I like living in a modern age - watching TV, listening to music and... driving my car. I also own a few bikes for getting around town and playing in the woods with. I don't want my horizons limited by lack of personal transport...
Almost everything we consume is delivered by road since the collapse of the canal and rail freight networks and to reconstitute them to the extent needed as a viable alternative to road transport would be prohibitively expensive. Even if you could rebuild them and make them commercially viable, you would still need some form of motor transport to haul goods from the rail and canal depots to the end-users.
Motor Transport is what we're stuck with for better or worse and all that remains is to keep it running as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Tax-breaks on fuel for hauliers and those who drive for a living (maybe on a sliding scale for sales reps etc) would be the obvious answer and higher fuel tax for other non-trade motorists to off-set the cost. By higher tax on fuel you would eliminate more non-essential journeys and force people onto public transport for shorter or non-essential journeys - you would also have the side benefit of clearing the roads a little, thus reducing the amount of road maintenace required and also making it more fun to drive on the occasions that you did so.
The government is often heard mooting additional motoring tax options to reduce traffic - fuel tax is the easiest way of doing this - the more you drive the more fuel you need and the more you pay. No need for GPS trackers to monitor mileage, no need for 'smart' cameras to record license plates, no need to spend more money on additional infrastructure...

Oil is going to get more expensive as time goes on - it's a fact of life...could it be cheaper? Probably. Will it get cheaper? Probably not. The oil business is a business, not a charity organisation...just because we as a society have tied our entire transportation to one type of fuel isn't the fault of the oil producers, it's our fault.
We do have a choice with regard higher fuel prices. We can pay what they ask and continue driving our personal cars, or we can do without and accept the loss of convenience that ensues.
 
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A nice sentiment, but who would volunteer to be the ones to give up driving so that the rest of (us) can have clearer roads to drive on...not me...
If motor transport hadn't been 'invented' we'd still be living in an insular, agrarian society where people seldom left the villages they were born in...I don't think anyone would seriously advocate that we turn back the clock 150 years apart from a few deluded tree-huggers...
I like living in a modern age - watching TV, listening to music and... driving my car. I also own a few bikes for getting around town and playing in the woods with. I don't want my horizons limited by lack of personal transport...
Almost everything we consume is delivered by road since the collapse of the canal and rail freight networks and to reconstitute them to the extent needed as a viable alternative to road transport would be prohibitively expensive. Even if you could rebuild them and make them commercially viable, you would still need some form of motor transport to haul goods from the rail and canal depots to the end-users.
Motor Transport is what we're stuck with for better or worse and all that remains is to keep it running as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Tax-breaks on fuel for hauliers and those who drive for a living (maybe on a sliding scale for sales reps etc) would be the obvious answer and higher fuel tax for other non-trade motorists to off-set the cost. By higher tax on fuel you would eliminate more non-essential journeys and force people onto public transport for shorter or non-essential journeys - you would also have the side benefit of clearing the roads a little, thus reducing the amount of road maintenace required and also making it more fun to drive on the occasions that you did so.
The government is often heard mooting additional motoring tax options to reduce traffic - fuel tax is the easiest way of doing this - the more you drive the more fuel you need and the more you pay. No need for GPS trackers to monitor mileage, no need for 'smart' cameras to record license plates, no need to spend more money on additional infrastructure...

Oil is going to get more expensive as time goes on - it's a fact of life...could it be cheaper? Probably. Will it get cheaper? Probably not. The oil business is a business, not a charity organisation...just because we as a society have tied our entire transportation to one type of fuel isn't the fault of the oil producers, it's our fault.
We do have a choice with regard higher fuel prices. We can pay what they ask and continue driving our personal cars, or we can do without and accept the loss of convenience that ensues.

I totally agree with you!! Higher tax for those who have the choice to drive or not, and some form of rebates for hauliers/community care workers etc.

I think it's a bit OTT saying you would be turning back the clock by practically banning car travel...for a start we all live a lot closer together now and of course we have public transport, but I can see the point you are making.The ones who should be giving up the car journeys to make the roads a little clearer are those drivers who are either

a) travelling by car unneccesarily
b) have the option of public transport

The problem with motorists I think is that a lot of them think they have a greater right to the road than other road users....therefore do not want to be seen to be backing down and leaving the car at home, when nobody actually has a God given right to drive, it is a luxury for everyone. Some people just make that luxury their job..........but there is nothing to stop them changing that.

If a driver wants to pay the price of fuel then let them...I don't have a problem with that. Where my problem lies is with the people who have a reasonable alternative choice, but do not for whatever reason wish to use it, and then still go on to complain. Complaining never gets anyone anywhere....give it up or shut up!

As I've said, driving for most is a luxury...if you don't want to pay then don't do it. I love Cadbury's chocolate....but sometimes I have to make down with Tesco's own.....it is just how life is!

Edit - I've tried to be as polite as possible in expressing my views, but people using terms like "deluded tree huggers" and "beloved trains" in a derogatory sense brings down the level of debate here. Please be a little more respectful of others views.
 
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But...tree-huggers are deluded...and should be flogged naked around Wembley stadium before major football matches to cheer the crowd up a little...:naughty:

(In the style of Christian v Lions in the Circus Maximus...)

Yes it's down to personal choice: I personally hate travelling by train in the UK - I had to do it for many years and found it to be irksome, inconvenient, slow and frustrating. It also worked out more expensive for the most part if you included bus/taxi fares to and from the stations. Added to that the physical embuggerence of carrying heavy luggage...well...
I'll happily pay for the extra tax on fuel in the knowledge that I can travel whenever and to wherever I like in air-conditioned comfort, listening to music of my choice without having to contend with grubby snot-encrusted urchins; drunks; smack-heads on PCP; filthy seats covered in chewing-gum; (un)personal stereos blasting out (c)rap music etc. etc...
Until the government properly subsidises the public transport system in the UK and properly integrates it so journeys become less horrendous (look at Holland for the model we should be aiming for), I'll drive, thanks very much.
 
If motor transport hadn't been 'invented' we'd still be living in an insular, agrarian society where people seldom left the villages they were born in...

I'm far from a tree hugger - due to work I guess I'm in the top 1% of the site here in terms of carbon footprint :( - but I don't see that no car = insular society. If anything being shut away in individual cars isolates us far more, as well as the pace of modern life limiting opportunities for personal growth.

It's a moot point, since we can only speculate on what has never been, but it's a hell of a leap to say the car has responsible to save us from such a fate.

Almost everything we consume is delivered by road since the collapse of the canal and rail freight networks and to reconstitute them to the extent needed as a viable alternative to road transport would be prohibitively expensive.

Well, the rail and tram network collapsed BECAUSE of the (then) relatively lower cost of road - it wasn't that they collapsed and roads were needed to replace them. As for being prohibitively expensive, it depends. With oil at $30/barrel? Yes, rail is expensive. When oil reaches $300/barrel? Road isn't going to look too cheap if that's all we have.

Our economy, in the simplest sense, is a mechanism by which energy is turned into goods is turned into money. If we stop the growth of energy via oil, we either reduce the size of the economy and realign the "cost" of everything, or we shuffle our energy sources. I can't imagine any economist would claim we can grow the economy and continually reduce the energy input into that economy.

Motor Transport is what we're stuck with for better or worse and all that remains is to keep it running as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Tax-breaks on fuel for hauliers and those who drive for a living (maybe on a sliding scale for sales reps etc) would be the obvious answer and higher fuel tax for other non-trade motorists to off-set the cost.

I could not possibly disagree more. If oil will last forever, we have no problem, and no need for the above measures. If we acknowledge that oil will not, no one group of people has a right to use it, especially not people using simply because they currently drive for a living. No-one has any "right" to make a living. The price of oil at that point will (is!) determining which industries are sustainable at the prices going forward, and which will be realigned to what we can afford. Too expensive to transport out of season fruit from Africa by 'plane and truck? Fine, then we can afford to eat only what's in season.

If there is only a limited number of years of oil, we should be treating as though it were precious - not giving tax breaks to sales reps.

The government is often heard mooting additional motoring tax options to reduce traffic - fuel tax is the easiest way of doing this - the more you drive the more fuel you need and the more you pay. No need for GPS trackers to monitor mileage, no need for 'smart' cameras to record license plates, no need to spend more money on additional infrastructure...

Here we agree, although the government surely won't! Governments crave more power - such monitoring systems are the wet dream of any government, hence UK's obsession with CCTV, DNA, car monitoring, databases - anything that shifts power from the people to the state.

Oil is going to get more expensive as time goes on - it's a fact of life...could it be cheaper? Probably. Will it get cheaper? Probably not. The oil business is a business, not a charity organisation...just because we as a society have tied our entire transportation to one type of fuel isn't the fault of the oil producers, it's our fault.

Here I also agree, although I don't think oil could get cheaper in the "long-term sustainable lower price" sense. There is speculative money in the oil price now, and if that were withdrawn we could see a dip down. It would be temporary though. The two problems are ;

1) Supply/demand. Supply has been 85 mbpd for two years, on a plateau. Demand has risen to meet and now exceed that, and is projected to hit 120mpd. I've seen no sensible projection of how we are ever going to bring that rate of extraction online, especially alongside the crashing decline of extraction rate at major sites such as Cantarell, North Sea etc.

2) Money supply. A huge part of the problem is the rate of expansion money supply (i.e. literally printing money, or conjuring up on computers). Money today is created as debt, and with the huge expansion in debt as well as derivatives and futures markets, there is a HUGE expansion in money supply, especially dollars. As more dollars are printed, their value goes down (we call it inflation). It's not only oil - EVERYTHING is going up in value relative to the dollar - oil, gold, wheat, other currencies, you name it. If you measure the price of oil priced in gold, silver or wheat, it hasn't changed much at all. So the problem is very much to do with money supply.

The US currently owes more money than any other country in history, the amount is rising by about 3 billion dollars per DAY, and on top of that are unfunded future obligations such as social security, medicaid etc. It means the money supply is unlikely to slow, and is why the dollar is currently sinking at such a rate.

With the dollar sinking, oil is simply repricing into new, lower value, dollars. With that background, plus demand increase, in the long term I don't see any way for oil to be cheaper.
 
do you know the AA found out that going 70 instead of 80 on the motorway is 17.9% more efficent
 
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