Full v Crop

A few words from a recent digital convert...

Having been a 35mm user since my teens, I made the decision to go digital last year, and now use a Canon 5D.

I decided early on that I had to go full-frame, in order to preserve the effective field-of-view of my lenses (choosing my words carefully here!) I'd got used over the years to, say, a 50mm lens producing a certain result. I didn't like the idea of a 50mm lens suddenly behaving as if it had a teleconverter stuck behind it for all my digital shots.

However, if I'd taken up photography from scratch last year, this consideration probably wouldn't have struck me as very important. "50mm" doesn't mean very much if you've got no frame of reference!

In other words, if you select lenses to produce the effect you're after, and ignore the numbers on the barrel, whether your camera has a 1.0x, 1.4x, 1.6x etc. sensor ceases to hold much importance.

That said, full-frame sensors do seem to produce the best possible low-light high-ISO results, as evidenced by the 5D, D700 etc. I've always enjoyed doing available-light candid photography, and I can get results with my 5D at ISO 800 and above that I would have struggled to get with film.

A.
 
Or to put in another way in Nikon speak - take the D700's sensor, scale it down to the 1.5x crop which would put it around 5.1 megapixels and put in in a D40 chassis.

Would this cropped D700 sensor offer better sharpness, contrast and DR than the stock DX sensor in the D40 (6 megapixels)?

No. So by this example, the full frame version is better, because it would indeed have more resolution (more pixels) than the cropped version, and greater dynamic range (more light gathering area - all those yummy photons ;) ).

(As previously discussed the point about micro-contrast should really be taken out of this as it's a characteristic of certain lenses at extreme resolution, not all lenses, and is thus unrelated to the question of sensor size.)
 
Wow, this topic makes for an interesting (and surprising) read. I also thought that full frame walked all over DX in most respects but it seems that this isn't the case at all. The only conclusion I can really make from all of this is that if your ONLY consideration is noise, go full frame. Would a camera like the D2X with some lovely glass knock the socks off any of its full frame brothers purely because it uses the ideal part of the lens? I know this affects sharpness but does it also affect anything else too? Maybe I've got it all wrong here, please correct me if I have :thinking:.
 
For me the advantages are tonality, bokeh rendering, and images have a certain depth or 3d-ness which is hard to pinpoint but you know its there. And I like my 28mm f/2.8 AI-S uncropped :)

I certainly do not believe there are any sharpness or detail advantages in the format per se, and I've yet to see anything beat the Fuji S5 Pro for dynamic range.
 
The only conclusion I can really make from all of this is that if your ONLY consideration is noise, go full frame.
That's a fair conclusion, but make sure you understand why. It's simply because the camera manufacturers use larger pixels in full frame sensors; nothing to do with the size of the sensor itself. Read my thought experiment a few posts back for a bit more on this.
Would a camera like the D2X with some lovely glass knock the socks off any of its full frame brothers purely because it uses the ideal part of the lens?
You have to define "knock the socks off" for it to be a meaningful question. But it's certainly the case that some highly regarded lenses (eg the Nikon AF-S 70-200mm f/2.8 VR) have sweet spots that broadly coincide wth DX sensors and deliver much worse performance towards the edges of FX sensors.
 
While various posters have come at this from different directions, there is a level of agreement, and the inevitable conclusion that whatever the advantages of full frame, they are both small, often hard to make the most of, and always expensive.

So in the interests of a bit more debate, and not provocation ;) here are a few pros and cons as I see them. It will be interesting to see what other people make if it.

Full frame has more resolution. With more pixels, as most full frame cameras have, then this must be true. But you do need a good lens to achieve it, and very big enlargements to see it. At 300dpi (widely regarded as the highest quality standard, and not to be confused with printer dpi which counts multiple coloured dots) you only need 6m pixels to get a pin sharp 10in print. That's a gross simplification, and there's more to image quality than that, but it makes the point.

Full frame has more dynamic range. Bigger pixels gather more light, which means much more shadow detail and less noise. Full frame images look 'richer.'

Full frame has better high ISO performance. Same thing as above really. If you don't need ultra-deep shadow detail, then you can increase the ISO and utilise the benefit there. In round numbers, the difference is between one and two stops, so instead of ISO400, that's maybe ISO1000. Big difference, and this is the ace card that Nikon has played with the D3/D700, and it's been a smash hit with action and news photographers.

Full frame needs better lenses. It is much harder optically to cover the area of a full frame image with an even level of very high quality. Sharpness falls off dramatically towards the corners, and vignetting (darkening of the corners) is also a problem. However, the best lenses can manage it if they're not used at full aperture, and something like a 50mm prime at f/8 will max out even the best sensors. Also, image processing can improve sharpness, reduce chromatic aberration and eliminate vignetting (as well as loads of other image-enhancing stuff) very easily, so this is less of a problem in practise.

Full frame has more contrast, and micro-contrast. This is another lens thing, and concerns the MTF characterists of lenses. Lens designers have to balance out resolution against contrast - it is hard to get lots of both. Contrast reduces as resolution increases, so if you have to enlarge a full frame image less for a given print size, the contrast will be higher. But it's not a huge difference - if you look at the MTF for 30 cycles resolution for full frame vs 50 cycles for crop (x1.6) then the corresponding MTFs might read 90% for full frame and 70% for the crop. That's a significant difference, but the gap is narrowed with careful post processing, and of course the crop sensor is reading the sweet spot in the centre of the lens where MTF is highest. 70% is still a damn good figure to work with! But if you're looking at micro-contrast, the clarity of very fine detail around 200 cycles, because the full frame image requires less enlargement for a given print size, the cropped image is going to run out of very fine detail sooner. However, micro-contrast at this level is not relevant to everyday photography - you just can't see it unaided (I only mention it here because, foolishly, I brought it up earlier in the thread).

Full frame has less depth of field. Or looked at the other way, crop format delivers greater depth of field, to the tune of 1.3 stops. This is a fundamental difference and cannot be changed in post processing. It swings both ways - to some folks this is an advantage, and for others it isn't. Some people say that full frame gives better bokeh (how attractive out of focus backgrounds look) and this is a massively subjective and contentious topic, but it is a fact that the shallower depth of field delivered by full frame will render backgrounds more blurry than crop and some people find this more attractive. I think I agree with them.

With full frame, you can make optimum use of the field of view delivered by many lenses. For example, if you use a Canon EF lens or Nikon FX on a crop camera, then you are throwing away most of the image! You can look at this two ways - full frame cameras make better use of wide-angles, and crop format 'appears' to give more reach with long focal lenghts. However, new lenses designed specifically for crop format neutralise this.

Full frame lenses are bigger, heavier and more expensive than crop format EF-S or DX lenses. They have to gather more light, and image it over a bigger sensor area, so yes, they are.

You can enlarge full frame much more than crop. Or looked at another way, a full frame camera is simultaneously also a crop format camera. There is no rule that says you have to use the full frame area all the time, and if you have, for example, a full frame camera with 24m pixels, then you also have a 10m pixel crop format camera. Photographers that often struggle to get a big enough image, like birders, can use this, and it is particularly beneficial with rapidly moving subjects, like birds in flight. Subjects like this are both hard to get close to and very hard to track accurately in the viewfinder - you're never quite certain of getting them plum in the middle. So the ability to enlarge a small section from anywhere in the frame is a real bonus to improve your hit rate.

That's all I can think of for now :)
 
I got as far as "Full frame has more resolution. "

This line makes no sense. More than what?

D700 is full frame. D3X is full frame. You keep mentioning absolutes in your fallacious "bigger better" mantra.

I keep saying that there is no magical resolution advantage, and you keep ignoring it!
 
I got as far as "Full frame has more resolution. "

This line makes no sense. More than what?

D700 is full frame. D3X is full frame. You keep mentioning absolutes in your fallacious "bigger better" mantra.

I keep saying that there is no magical resolution advantage, and you keep ignoring it!

More than crop of course!

If you call that an absolute statement then fine, but I would say I'm talking more in general terms and as you have pointed out there are cameras out there that swing the argement both ways. But it is evident that a bigger sensor can accommodate both more pixles, and bigger pixels.

And that gives a resoltion advantage, amongst other things. Nothing magical.

I would much rather debate the pros and cons of each characteristic, than whether they exist or not!
 
Hoppy I got as far as "Full Frame has more resolution.With more pixels"

That is not true, D300 12.3mp D700 12mp, in this example the full frame has fewer pixels.

The problem is that in all of your replies you are basing your argument on more pixels is better, that was not the OP's question. If we were debating the question which is better more pixels or fewer pixels I would agree with a lot of your comments.

I still think we need to define "better" as I said several posts ago, comparing the D300 to the D700, the D300 is better for me.
 
More than crop of course!

How? D700 12 megapixels full frame. D300 crop, 12 megapixels.

Again, "more than crop" is just an absolute. Worse then an absolute, its also untrue in several cases.
 
While various posters have come at this from different directions, there is a level of agreement, and the inevitable conclusion that whatever the advantages of full frame, they are both small, often hard to make the most of, and always expensive.

/loads of stuff

That would have been a perfect post ;)
 
That is not true, D300 12.3mp D700 12mp, in this example the full frame has fewer pixels.

The problem is that in all of your replies you are basing your argument on more pixels is better, that was not the OP's question. If we were debating the question which is better more pixels or fewer pixels I would agree with a lot of your comments.

I really do wish that this simple concept could be grasped - then maybe we could actually get some agreement! Until then I'll just sit and read and continue to be frustrated. :nuts::bang:
 
How about this then:

For a given pixel count, let's say 12MP, it can generally be assumed that the FF sensor will give lower noise levels, better tonality and gradation and better DR than a DX sensor (Fuji aside).
 
How about this then:

For a given pixel count, let's say 12MP, it can generally be assumed that the FF sensor will give lower noise levels, better tonality and gradation and better DR than a DX sensor (Fuji aside).

That I can agree with.
 
The problem is that in all of your replies you are basing your argument on more pixels is better, that was not the OP's question. If we were debating the question which is better more pixels or fewer pixels I would agree with a lot of your comments.

Streuth this is hard work :D

I am basing my argument on the OP's question, which was whether full frame "delivers a sharper picture, more detail." And if sharpness is defined by pixels alone, then the answer is yes, and not "no" which was the response he first received.

But there is more to sharpness and image quality in general than pixels, and I've noted a few in my post above. But I would argue that however you define image quality, then you will find the full frame has more of those desirable characteristcs than any crop format camera.

So, which crop camera has 24m pixels? No! Don't answer that, there isn't one that comes anywhere near. But what do you think of the merits for and aganist full frame vs crop? There are good arguments for and against, and in case nobody noticed, I use a crop camera ;)
 
And if sharpness is defined by pixels alone, then the answer is yes

No its not.

Please explain your understanding of acuity, extinction detail, and the interaction with AA filtration and how you paint that this with your broad "sharpness" brush.

No cheating and going on Google now :)
 
How about this then:

For a given pixel count, let's say 12MP, it can generally be assumed that the FF sensor will give lower noise levels, better tonality and gradation and better DR than a DX sensor (Fuji aside).

Yes. But to be clear, I'd like to know why you say that.

How about this then:

For a pixel count of 24m, it can generally assumed that the full frame sensor will deliver more sharpness and detail, because no crop sensor has anywhere near that number of pixels.
 
Because I've used D300, 5D, D700 and D3 bodies, so it's based on experience.

Other than that it's because the 12 million pixels on the FF sensor will be bigger. Simple physics.

Your second point though - that puzzles me. What you're actually saying is that a sensor with more pixels will out-resolve the sensor with less pixels. That's not a FF vs crop debate from where I'm standing.
 
Yes. But to be clear, I'd like to know why you say that.

How about this then:

For a pixel count of 24m, it can generally assumed that the full frame sensor will deliver more sharpness and detail, because no crop sensor has anywhere near that number of pixels.

But thats meaningless. Its just like saying a 2 acre field is better than a 1 acre field because it'll hold more cows. You are not saying anything.

There is more resolution simply because there is more resolution. Its nothing to do with the question at all off crop vs full frame :bonk: and not a benefit of the format per se.

You have to compare like with like - until you are prepared to accept this, we are going round in maddening circles.
 
And if sharpness is defined by pixels alone, then the answer is yes

No its not.

Please explain your understanding of acuity, extinction detail, and the interaction with AA filtration and how you paint that this with your broad "sharpness" brush.

No cheating and going on Google now :)

Haha no google ;) It's taken me a long time to home grow this 5h!t! Did you not get to the rest of my post you've quoted from? On the very next line I wrote:

"But there is more to sharpness and image quality in general than pixels, and I've noted a few in my post above."

There are only two aspects to "sharpness" and all the things you've mentioned (in addition to 101 other factors, some of which I have noted above) ultimately only impact on them, in various ways. Those two apsects are resolution and contrast, the two axes on an MTF plot. That is to say, the fineness of detail, and how clearly that detail is shown.

In relation to your point about acuity, extinction detail and AA filters, I can only answer a specific question but I would state up front that I don't see how these factors affect the full frame vs crop debate. The question I would put to you is, what is it you can do to the benefit of crop sensors (in relation to AA filters etc) that you cannot apply to full frame? Basically, I don't yet see the relevance of your question around this.
 
Streuth this is hard work :D

I am basing my argument on the OP's question, which was whether full frame "delivers a sharper picture, more detail." And if sharpness is defined by pixels alone, then the answer is yes, and not "no" which was the response he first received.

Strange as you seem to be the only one who holds this view, and the correct answer is still 'No' :)
 
Because I've used D300, 5D, D700 and D3 bodies, so it's based on experience.

Other than that it's because the 12 million pixels on the FF sensor will be bigger. Simple physics.

That's good enough for me :)

Your second point though - that puzzles me. What you're actually saying is that a sensor with more pixels will out-resolve the sensor with less pixels. That's not a FF vs crop debate from where I'm standing.

In practise, it is very definitely a full frame vs crop debate, for the simple reason that you can get more pixels into the larger area of full frame - very substantially more. Not only that, those pixels can also be a lot bigger, further enhancing the image in the way you have explained with basic physics argument above. I really don't see the point in debating the obvious truth of this.
 
But that's a hypothetical that states nothing more than - you can get more pixels on a bigger sensor. As Andy points out, you can get more cows in a bigger field (assuming the cow size remains constant). So what? That tells you nothing about the soil quality of the field.

The practical side is very different - and that is that a 12MP FF sensor offers the same resolution as a 12MP crop one. A 15MP crop sensor offers more resolution than a 12MP FF one. A 24MP FF one offers more than a 15MP crop one. It's nothing to do with the inherent benefits of FF over crop beyond 'if it's bigger you can fit more in'.
 
Full frame has less depth of field. Or looked at the other way, crop format delivers greater depth of field, to the tune of 1.3 stops. This is a fundamental difference and cannot be changed in post processing. It swings both ways - to some folks this is an advantage, and for others it isn't. Some people say that full frame gives better bokeh (how attractive out of focus backgrounds look) and this is a massively subjective and contentious topic, but it is a fact that the shallower depth of field delivered by full frame will render backgrounds more blurry than crop and some people find this more attractive. I think I agree with them.

I'm interested in this comment. I'm not saying that I disagree with you (I have no fixed opinion at the moment), but I'm not sure I understand how this might be?

why would a cropped sensor give less DoF? surely it will give the same DoF that you'll see in the middle of a FF sensor? If you took a FF photo with an F1.8 lens and cropped it to DX size, and then took the same picture with a DX camera and the same lens as above, would you not get a very similar picture as regards DoF?

isn't DoF defined by the lens/aperture used, not the device used to record the picture?

dave
 
But thats meaningless. Its just like saying a 2 acre field is better than a 1 acre field because it'll hold more cows. You are not saying anything.

There is more resolution simply because there is more resolution. Its nothing to do with the question at all off crop vs full frame :bonk: and not a benefit of the format per se.

You have to compare like with like - until you are prepared to accept this, we are going round in maddening circles.


Maddening circles indeed! How on earth can you compare like with like? The OP was asking about crop vs full frame!!! That is the comparison I'm making! They are not the same; I've highlighted some of the differences; and yes, you get more cows on a full frame sensor, more grass too, more sunlight which is quite pertinent (but strangely, less 5h!t). More of everything desirable, in fact.
 
It's easy to compare like with like. We can just that with a D300 and D700. This whole debate has stemmed from your assertion that FF 'gives you more resolution' per se.

It doesn't.
 
I'm interested in this comment. I'm not saying that I disagree with you (I have no fixed opinion at the moment), but I'm not sure I understand how this might be?

why would a cropped sensor give less DoF? surely it will give the same DoF that you'll see in the middle of a FF sensor? If you took a FF photo with an F1.8 lens and cropped it to DX size, and then took the same picture with a DX camera and the same lens as above, would you not get a very similar picture as regards DoF?

isn't DoF defined by the lens/aperture used, not the device used to record the picture?

dave

Dave, Hoppy is correct on this point the DOF from a 50mm lens on a full frame will differ to the DOF from the same 50mm on a crop sensor.
 
Strange as you seem to be the only one who holds this view, and the correct answer is still 'No' :)

If you truly believe that, then please tell me why numerous manufacturers make full frame cameras, serious photographers pay over the odds to get them, and those people on here that strive for ultimate image quality aspire to get one?

Full frame cameras deliver more sharpness, or more dynamic range and better contrast, than any crop camera does, or indeed can. They do this because they are bigger. Simple, basic, undeniable fact.

If I am certainly not the only one that holds this view.
 
If you truly believe that, then please tell me why numerous manufacturers make full frame cameras, serious photographers pay over the odds to get them, and those people on here that strive for ultimate image quality aspire to get one?

Full frame cameras deliver more sharpness, or more dynamic range and better contrast, than any crop camera does, or indeed can. They do this because they are bigger. Simple, basic, undeniable fact.

If I am certainly not the only one that holds this view.

I refer you to my previous postings, please compare like for like, 12mp v 12mp, the D700 is no sharper than the D300.

As I said earlier you are returning to more pixels as the basis of your argument.
 
I thought we had some good debates over at AVF on pixels/quality/sharpness/contrast, etc. How ignorant was I! :)
 
From the outside looking in the circles this thread is going round in make me hope it never gets a necro when it does evenrually die.

Now, however, I'm going to go and break the OP's leg for posting the topic in the first place.
 
So, which crop camera has 24m pixels? No! Don't answer that, there isn't one that comes anywhere near. But what do you think of the merits for and aganist full frame vs crop? There are good arguments for and against, and in case nobody noticed, I use a crop camera ;)

But why is that relevent? The 50D has more pixels than most of the other FF offerings from other manufacturers and on a crop sensor.

However I am now perplexed. If you are correct in that bigger pixels are better for dynamic range, etc, why are we not reading that Canon have destroyed the DR of the 5D in the new 5D II? The pixels there are clearly far smaller than those on the mark I .. .

:thinking:

Am considering getting a 5D, 5DII or D700 at the moment myself and am intrigued with this debate.
 
Dave, Hoppy is correct on this point the DOF from a 50mm lens on a full frame will differ to the DOF from the same 50mm on a crop sensor.

Yes, crop format delivers more depth of field than full frame. Indeed this was another topic debated at ludicrous length on a recent thread. But it is not for the reason you've given Martyn, or at least it is not sufficiently explained. In your 50mm lens example, the image formed on the full frame or crop sensor will be identical in every respect. Just that the crop sensor will have 'cropped' most of the image away.

But that isn't how we use crop format cameras. You wouldn't use a 50mm lens for the same image with a crop camera, but more likely a 30mm to retain field of view. This will give you a substanially smaller final image, and a smaller image on the sensor has more depth of field. Digi-compacts for example, inherantly have loads of depth of field.

Actually, Dave's post is also right in the way he has stated it. It just needs some elaboration. He said above "surely it will give the same DoF that you'll see in the middle of a FF sensor? If you took a FF photo with an F1.8 lens and cropped it to DX size, and then took the same picture with a DX camera and the same lens as above, would you not get a very similar picture as regards DoF? ...isn't DoF defined by the lens/aperture used, not the device used to record the picture?"

Yes, but the camera format makes a big difference. In practise, since the sensor size is fixed, the two things which affect depth of field are f/number and magnification - move closer or further away, use a telephoto or wide-angle, if the image size remains the same, depth of field is also constant. But if you switch formats, and switch lenses at the same time to retain field of view, then if you use a crop format, depth of field will be greater than full frame.

I'll find a link to the other thread if you like.
 
But why is that relevent? The 50D has more pixels than most of the other FF offerings from other manufacturers and on a crop sensor.

However I am now perplexed. If you are correct in that bigger pixels are better for dynamic range, etc, why are we not reading that Canon have destroyed the DR of the 5D in the new 5D II? The pixels there are clearly far smaller than those on the mark I .. .

:thinking:

Am considering getting a 5D, 5DII or D700 at the moment myself and am intrigued with this debate.

Technology is the answer. The 5DII is newer, and technology is advancing fast. This new camera is indeed very good in both noise and resolution terms. By Canon's own admission, the sensor is even better than that in the 1DsIII! Nikon has chosen to go for low noise/high ISO with the D700 and D3, rather than record resolution. The D3x is generally closer to the 5DII, in everything except price!

This is inevitable progress. But if you agree with the obvious truth that more pixels are better, and that bigger pixels are better, then you will find the best camera for you is full frame.
 
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