Gold leaf in oil painting not picking up light?

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Andrew
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I'm photographing an oil painting that has an area of gold leaf. I'm using X2 flash angled at 45degrees either side. The painting itself is perfectly lit, but the gold leaf isn't picking up the light and is presenting 'dark'. Any ideas of how I could get the gold to be lit at the same time as the painting? I think what I'm trying to describe is the gold reflecting light straight into the camera, so that it appears bright, and not lost in the painting. I only have the 2 flashes.

Thanks
 
Think of the gold as a mirror, light hitting it at 45° will bounce off at 45° the other way and so miss the lens, I guess you need to get the flash gun closer to the camera so that light hits the gold and is reflected into the lens rather than off to the side.
 
It might be dependent on your lighting modifiers, if the light is hard and directional, like directly from a flash gun, then you might need to place the camera at the perfect angle so the light reflects into it. Either moving the flash closer, or using a large diffuser (a shower curtain will work) or "bouncing" it off a wall, could work
 
As per @sirch above, basic physics - your 45 degreee lighting is fine for the general scene but is (obviously) causing the reflection from the gold leaf to reflect at the same angle, away from the lens.

A third flash, pointing more or less straight at the gold leaf is the quickest answer, but you can get around it by taking two exposures and combining them in PP.
 
When you are photographing a reflective metal surface you are not photographing the surface you are photographing what it is reflecting. If it looks dark it is because it is reflecting a dark area of your space. Change the position of your lights so they are reflected or use a bit of white card. The best way to do it is look through the viewfinder and get somebody to move the card around until it's in the correct place.
 
Change the position of your lights so they are reflected or use a bit of white card.
Do you mean that I keep the two flashes in place for the actual painting, and use the card to reflect some of the light onto the gold towards the lens? Could I use a mirror or some other reflective surface?

Could it even be an idea to use an ordinary table lamp? Or what could I buy for this purpose?

I'm using two Lencarta Smartflash with soft boxes (in case that wasn't clear).
 
Do you mean that I keep the two flashes in place for the actual painting, and use the card to reflect some of the light onto the gold towards the lens? Could I use a mirror or some other reflective surface?

Could it even be an idea to use an ordinary table lamp? Or what could I buy for this purpose?

I'm using two Lencarta Smartflash with soft boxes (in case that wasn't clear).
Most photographic lighting problems are complex, and the best answers often start with "it depends" and end with "and then experiment".

No photographer, however knowledgeable or skilled, can usually know exactly what lighting is required until s/he sets it up, but with this knowledge and experience, it's easy to know what CANNOT work, which saves time.

But this one is simple, because the subject is flat and two-dimensional and so the result cannot be affected by camera angle. Your solution was clearly identified in posts 2 and 4. light must always reflect at the same angle (the angle of reflectance = the angle of incidence) and, with the light coming from 45 degrees, it must reflect at 45 degrees, which means that the light reflected from the gold leaf cannot reach the lens and so cannot show the gold leaf in your photo.

So, as already explained, what you need to do is to have a third flash pointing straight on (90 degrees or thereabouts) to the surface, so that the light from the gold leaf is reflected straight back to the lens. Simple.

Reflective cards can help with a lot of lighting challenges, but not this one - think about it, for a reflector to work, it needs to pick up "spare" light and change its direction. In this case, it will be impossible to pick up this spare light, and even if this was physically possible, the reflector would need to be placed in front of the lens, which means that you'd get a photo of the reflector, not the painting!

In theory, a table lamp may do the job, but it would be physically far too large and because of its size it would need to be behind the camera, so would cast a shadow of the camera on to the painting - and the light colour would be wrong too.

So, back to basics - a hotshoe flash plugged into your camera and set at low power (experiment with the power) is your best answer, and my alternative of taking one shot with your two 45-degree lights and one shot with one 90-degree light and merging them together in post processing will give the same result with more work. Therefore, if you have just one painting to photograph, take two shots and merge them, and if you have a hundred to do then use a third flash.

Does this help?
 
a hotshoe flash plugged into your camera and set at low power (experiment with the power) is your best answer
This is making sense for me. Except the Smartflash lights already occupy the hotshoe. The radio trigger (I think it's called?) sits there. My body is a Nikon D3200.
 
This is making sense for me. Except the Smartflash lights already occupy the hotshoe. The radio trigger (I think it's called?) sits there. My body is a Nikon D3200.
Ahh . . . in which case use another radio receiver to trigger the hotshoe flash, or have the hotshoe flash fire as a slave.
 
Ahh . . . in which case use another radio receiver to trigger the hotshoe flash, or have the hotshoe flash fire as a slave.
I'm very nearly completely ignorant about hotshoe flashes, could you please recommend a reasonably priced one? The extra trigger sounds a bit complicated. To be honest the slave bit sounds complicated, but I'd probably manage to work it out...
 
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I'm very nearly completely ignorant about hotshoe flashes, could you please recommend a reasonably priced one? The extra trigger sounds a bit complicated. To be honest the slave bit sounds complicated, but I'd probably manage to work it out...
I'm pretty ignorant about them too, maybe someone else can help on this . . .
But basically, any flash will do as long as the power can be adjusted manually. There are plenty of cheap second-hand ones available.
Certainly, this one https://www.lencarta.com/godox-mf12-macro-flash should do the job and it has a built-in radio receiver, but there must be cheaper options available.

There MAY be an even simpler solution, because your camera has a built-in flash that will do the job perfectly adequately, assuming that the power can be adjusted manually, and assuming that the radio trigger can still be used with the built-in flash cover raised for use - which I don't know, as I'm not familiar with your model of camera and because my own cameras don't have a built-in flash.

My advice is to wait for someone who is familiar with your model of camera to come along and clear up that point.
 
If you’re looking for a decent flashgun for the hot shoe, I would go for Godox TT 860 or the TT600 (make sure to look at Nikon based ones) they’re relatively cheap but they can be used off camera as well and be integrated into a larger system of multiple Godox lights (they make a lot of lights) as your kit grows.
 
You don't say what radio trigger you are using but my Godox X1-T wireless trigger has a hot shoe built onto the top to take a flash which you can control from the trigger
If you get something like a Godox TT 350 that is not too heavy
 
If you’re looking for a decent flashgun for the hot shoe, I would go for Godox TT 860 or the TT600 (make sure to look at Nikon based ones) they’re relatively cheap but they can be used off camera as well and be integrated into a larger system of multiple Godox lights (they make a lot of lights) as your kit grows.
..and they have the Godox receiver already inside. As @Two_In already has Godox heads, these will work out of the box (personally I'd get the V versions with a modern battery over the TT though)

Mind you, you could just use one of your existing Smartflash lights with the softbox (turn the other one off) behind the camera, pointing straight down with the front panel touching the back of the camera (assuming the painting is on a table/floor) and as @Garry Edwards suggested in #4, apply this frame as a separate layer in PP.
 
Oil paintings do not usually have a flat surface and can be difficult to light anyway.
If they can be taken outside sometimes skylight can be very effective. though that does depend on the roughness of the surface and how it catches the light.
Ancient oil paintings were often painted very smoothly and they are easier to light. How the gold is applied will also have a big contribution to the level of your problem.
Your OP is suggesting that your painting is a "Smooth" type, and the gold is " leaf" rather than metal pigment.

If you take two shots one lit as now and a second so as to get the gold to reflect into the lens. you should end up with two very different exposures. The first where the painting is correct but the Gold is black. The second where the gold is correct but the painting very under exposed. It should be very easy to combine the two in photoshop or the like.

Oil paintings are usually semi glossy and tend to have hot spots from direct light from the front. So you will probably have some manipulation to do on the "Gold" shot to remove them.

Like all bright metal surfaces you can get them to show themselves by "Huffing " on them, as you breath with condense on them, but the painting would need to be relatively cold. Unfortunately you can not use dulling spray as it would not be possible to remove it afterwards. with out damage.

As mentioned in other posts this is a case where experimentation is King.

Photographing cards that have been printed with gold foil has similar problems and is usually disappointing. as the result does not have the same reflecting properties as the original. Printers usually hot foil them for that reason. as do museums when reproducing gold leafed original paintings. though they sometimes use a metallic gold pigment ink as an extra colour. Pantone specify six different metallic Gold Lithographic Inks.
 
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Oil paintings do not usually have a flat surface and can be difficult to light anyway.
This ^^^^^

Striking a balance between showing texture and shine is difficult - partly because each artist will have their own idea of how they want the result to look.

..and they have the Godox receiver already inside. As @Two_In already has Godox heads, these will work out of the box (personally I'd get the V versions with a modern battery over the TT though)
I use speedlites only occasionally. I found that I needed the manual every time I got a Godox one out. In the end I got rid and stuck with the old simple £40 Yongnuo 560 jobs I already had.

Update: Just seen that the Yongnuo flashguns are now nearer £100 than £40 :(
 
I use speedlites only occasionally. I found that I needed the manual every time I got a Godox one out. In the end I got rid and stuck with the old simple £40 Yongnuo 560 jobs I already had.

Update: Just seen that the Yongnuo flashguns are now nearer £100 than £40 :(
Me too. I think they try to pack too many things into them: eg the V860's also work with the old Nikon Advanced Wireless Lighting optical control mechanism and can act as a master for AWL, and as a radio-based controller for the Godox system. Just getting them in the right mode can be a mission. If I need a small light I'll reach for an AD200 first. I gave away my bucketful of YN430-II's, but they were the simplest speed lights to use, with just buttons to increase and decrease output, and a button to turn on the slave sensor :) They don't seem to make a really cheap basic one anymore, which is a shame.
 
Me too. I think they try to pack too many things into them: eg the V860's also work with the old Nikon Advanced Wireless Lighting optical control mechanism and can act as a master for AWL, and as a radio-based controller for the Godox system. Just getting them in the right mode can be a mission. If I need a small light I'll reach for an AD200 first. I gave away my bucketful of YN430-II's, but they were the simplest speed lights to use, with just buttons to increase and decrease output, and a button to turn on the slave sensor :) They don't seem to make a really cheap basic one anymore, which is a shame.
Godox doesn't make anything cheap any more. They've got rid of most of their competitors and don't need to.
 
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