Grey import yes or no

[Terrywoodenpic]

...and as has been established just as many times before, their business model is based on only a proportion of the packages being intercepted and charges levied, not to mention the spurious declarations in respect the value on the forms.

Of course, they are doing nothing wrong - it is the purchaser, who is acting as sole importer and therefore committing VAT fraud.

Bury your head in the sand or justify it what ever way works for you, but the fact remains if you import a package in this manner and you don't pay the VAT (and if due import duty), you are committing a crime. If you are lucky enough to have your package intercepted and pay and reclaim the right amount of VAT from DR or other grey importers, then great you've got a bargain - if like most, your package is unlucky enough to slip through then net, then you've just broken the law. Perhaps next time go full out and nick one from a passerby down a back alley in London - you'll save even more!

Of course the apologists will moan "here we go again" and "there's always one", but sod it. I've bitten my tongue on enough threads on this topic. There's a sticky on it somewhere.

I do not care for conspiracy theories....
Digital Rev have been trading honestly for many years. What you have written is plainly libelous to them. and to their customers.
They are a very large concern and are well thought of around the world.
They have gained an excellent reputation as independent importers. This is in no way illegal.
The are well known to and cooperate with HMRC.
They operate and trade openly in many countries with out raising issues of illegality.


I do not care for the innuendo in your post that I and others am in someway a criminal and breaking the law by dealing with them.

If you are so convinced that Digital Rev are acting Illegally I suggest you report them to HMRC and present your evidence.

 

[Furtim]

I do not care for conspiracy theories....
Digital Rev have been trading honestly for many years. What you have written is plainly libelous to them. and to their customers.
They are a very large concern and are well thought of around the world.
They have gained an excellent reputation as independent importers. This is in no way illegal.
The are well known to and cooperate with HMRC.
They operate and trade openly in many countries with out raising issues of illegality.


I do not care for the innuendo in your post that I and others am in someway a criminal and breaking the law by dealing with them.

If you are so convinced that Digital Rev are acting Illegally I suggest you report them to HMRC and present your evidence.

You might want to read that again - I clearly said Digital Rev 'are doing nothing wrong'.

In fact they are very clear on the matter in their T&C's

8. Customs

By purchasing a product through the Site, customers outside of Hong Kong authorise DigitalRev Limited to make arrangements for clearance of customs on their behalf for the products they have ordered.

When ordering goods from DigitalRev Limited, overseas deliveries may be subject to import duties and taxes, which are levied once the package reaches the specified destination. Any additional charges for customs clearance must be borne by you, unless an Import Handling Charge is included in the price of the goods. Customs policies vary widely from country to country, so you should contact your local Customs officer for further information. Additionally, please note that when ordering from DigitalRev Limited, you are considered the sole importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of the country in which you are receiving the goods. Your privacy is important to us and we know that you care about how information about your order is used and shared. We would like our international customers and customers dispatching products internationally to be aware that cross-border deliveries are subject to opening and inspection by customs authorities.

Now, for completeness, here's an excerpt from https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/overview

Your responsibilities
You may have to pay VAT, Customs Duty or Excise Duty on goods sent from outside the European Union (EU) before you can collect them.

You don’t pay VAT or Customs Duty when your things are sent back to you – they must be described as ‘personal belongings’ on the customs declaration.

You must also check that the sender:

• pays Excise Duty on any alcohol or tobacco sent from the EU
• declares goods correctly if they’re sent from outside the EU

Your goods may be seized if you don’t follow the rules. You may also be fined or prosecuted.

Sure as 1+1=2, Digital Rev (legally) pass on all the obligations and responsibilities to you as the sole importer, and as sole importer, you have the responsibility to pay VAT and Customs Duty (of which there is none for a Digital camera body, but there is for lenses).

Ergo, if said VAT is not paid, then laws are not being complied with (and it's not Digital Rev failing to comply!)

As to whether you, or anyone else on this forum have failed to declare and pay what's due, I couldn't possibly comment as I have no knowledge of the individual circumstances, but in general terms, Digital Rev's terms and conditions and the UK Law seem pretty clear in these circumstances.

**** EDIT **** Grrr, I promised myself last time I wouldn't get dragged into this again. TL;DR - read the T&C carefully, read the Gov.uk site carefully too, do what you need to do and everything and everyone is happy. Skip the T&C, and you may be unwittingly failing in your obligations. It's as simple as that, and I've nothing else to add to this thread.

 

[john_e]

I bought my D810 grey from Panamoz. Last week it decided to die, it's just over 2 years old. If I'd walked into a UK shop and bought it then I'd be facing a repair bill at the moment. Because I bought it from Panamoz it has a 3 year warranty. I simply send it to Nikon requesting a quote, send the quote to Panamoz and they PayPal me the cost of the repair. It's a no brainer for me. Have used both Panamoz and HDew with no problems whatsoever.

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

used Panamoz twice, fantastic service and comms

 

[Jim_Tod]

..

Of course, they are doing nothing wrong - it is the purchaser, who is acting as sole importer and therefore committing VAT fraud.

Bury your head in the sand or justify it what ever way works for you, but the fact remains if you import a package in this manner and you don't pay the VAT (and if due import duty), you are committing a crime. If you are lucky enough to have your package intercepted and pay and reclaim the right amount of VAT from DR or other grey importers, then great you've got a bargain -

Can you explain in your scenario why HMRC are happy to give HDEW a VAT number and the UK VAT element is reclaimable for the VAT registered?

 

[admirable]

Can you explain in your scenario why HMRC are happy to give HDEW a VAT number and the UK VAT element is reclaimable for the VAT registered?

This has been asked on this forum a few times and the correct answer has never been clarified. The VAT number that HDEW use is registered to VALIDHIRST Ltd not HDEW. Validhirst are trading under the name HDEW cameras but as discussed on this forum HDEW use the Validihirst VAT number on the invoices but there is no mention of Validihirst on the invoice. It is against the law to issue a VAT invoice for a supply of goods from a business that is not VAT registered. HDEW is not VAT registered but Valdihirst is.

Anyway this is going the same way as all the other 'grey' threads.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You might want to read that again - I clearly said Digital Rev 'are doing nothing wrong'.

In fact they are very clear on the matter in their T&C's



Now, for completeness, here's an excerpt from https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/overview



Sure as 1+1=2, Digital Rev (legally) pass on all the obligations and responsibilities to you as the sole importer, and as sole importer, you have the responsibility to pay VAT and Customs Duty (of which there is none for a Digital camera body, but there is for lenses).

Ergo, if said VAT is not paid, then laws are not being complied with (and it's not Digital Rev failing to comply!)

As to whether you, or anyone else on this forum have failed to declare and pay what's due, I couldn't possibly comment as I have no knowledge of the individual circumstances, but in general terms, Digital Rev's terms and conditions and the UK Law seem pretty clear in these circumstances.

**** EDIT **** Grrr, I promised myself last time I wouldn't get dragged into this again. TL;DR - read the T&C carefully, read the Gov.uk site carefully too, do what you need to do and everything and everyone is happy. Skip the T&C, and you may be unwittingly failing in your obligations. It's as simple as that, and I've nothing else to add to this thread.

Their terms and conditions apply to international sales. As they have stated numerous times, they have a different arrangement with HMRC as to sales in the uk, where they take on the full responsibility to import and pay all duties and tax. In that case the purchaser is not the importer.

 

[StewartR]

Of course the apologists will moan "here we go again" and "there's always one", but sod it. I've bitten my tongue on enough threads on this topic.

If you ever fancy a bit more entertainment you could draw a Venn diagram on which you illustrate:
(1) the subset of TP members who advocate tax evasion via the grey/black market; and
(2) the subset of TP members who advocate more government spending on the NHS / education / pensions / whatever.
Logically of course the intersection of these two sets should be empty....

 

[Furtim]

Their terms and conditions apply to international sales. As they have stated numerous times, they have a different arrangement with HMRC as to sales in the uk, where they take on the full responsibility to import and pay all duties and tax. In that case the purchaser is not the importer.

That's very good to hear! Could you link a source? The T&C's I quoted were from their website with the store set as 'UK'.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

while the manufacturere may have axes to grind with Grey importers. There is no reason to suppose that a grey importer is any more dishonest than any other independent importer of which there are many thousands.
Companies that use various trading names to sell under, can operate with a single vat registration. If they are seperate companies perhaps not.
None of these camera importing companies are so small that they can pass under the Rada of HMRC. Their books and vat returns would clearly show any tax avoidance.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That's very good to hear! Could you link a source? The T&C's I quoted were from their website with the store set as 'UK'.

Absolutely .. I gave a link in a previous post, to their official reply and their explanation of their terms, to a member on this site. (Digital Rev are official members on here.)
See post #39

 

[Furtim]

while the manufacturere may have axes to grind with Grey importers. There is no reason to suppose that a grey importer is any more dishonest than any other independent importer of which there are many thousands.
Companies that use various trading names to sell under, can operate with a single vat registration. If they are seperate companies perhaps not.
None of these camera importing companies are so small that they can pass under the Rada of HMRC. Their books and vat returns would clearly show any tax avoidance.

Most of these companies are not incorporated in the UK, so there are no 'books' for the UK government to review They don't operate under UK law, unlike the 'importer', resident in the UK, who does.

Absolutely .. I gave a link in a previous post, to their official reply and their explanation of their terms, to a member on this site. (Digital Rev are official members on here.)

Sorry - I was looking for something more legally binding than a poorly worded forum post from a sales rep. When you place the order, it is placed subject to the T&Cs displayed at the time - this explicitly puts the onus on the purchaser.

I don't doubt that the service from DR is excellent, and neither do I doubt that they will refund any charges incurred.

The forum post in question is highly ambiguous:

1. How does it work in regards to import duties when ordering from Digital Rev (DR)? Do DR take care of this or is it the responsibility of the consumer/purchaser?
Answer: All VAT charges are taken cared of by DigitalRev. The prices we offer is the final amount you have to pay. For any tax excise, these are charged towards our account directly. You dont have to pay any of these.

This could be read as Digital Rev pay all VAT for every purchase, but it could also be read as Digital Rev will pay the VAT if it is charged by customs; either way - you as the customer won't have to pay more.

My own view tends towards the latter interpretation, especially when paired with the Terms and Conditions that are imposed on you when purchasing, and when you consider that DR have allegedly mis-declared the goods ('toys' for example, or undervaluing the items) (taken from this thread)

 

[OldCarlos]

or undervaluing the items

They did that with a lens I purchased a couple of years ago. (yes I know I should have declared it, but couldn't be @rsed with the hassle tbh. Lesson learned . I won't be using them again)

 

[User.82148]

If these grey importers have agreements with HMRC to cover VAT and any duty, why do some customers, who have had their pacels inspected, receive a demand for VAT which they have to reclaim from the importer?

Overseas companies do not fill in UK VAT returns.

As mentioned above, you are either in one camp or the other over this topic.

 

[nandbytes]

As mentioned above, you are either in one camp or the other over this topic.

No not quite...
What @Furtim has described is perfectly correct. The way I see it grey importing is like pirating or downloading your movies for free online. I think fair amount of people do this simply because its more affordable or rather it wouldn't be affordable at all. Watching 4 newly released movies at the cinema will cost me ~£50 a month!! (yes we like movies ). Now cineworld offers a more attractive option of a monthly affordable subscription so I am happy with that.

Now I also agree that committing a crime shouldn't be an option and we rather should not partake in what's not legally affordable. But we are humans not saints, of all the things that wrong with the system this probably a very small portion of it.

TLDR; I like to think I am in both camps but mostly in the legal camp these days

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No not quite...
What @Furtim has described is perfectly correct. The way I see it grey importing is like pirating or downloading your movies for free online. I think fair amount of people do this simply because its more affordable or rather it wouldn't be affordable at all. Watching 4 newly released movies at the cinema will cost me ~£50 a month!! (yes we like movies ). Now cineworld offers a more attractive option of a monthly affordable subscription so I am happy with that.

Now I also agree that committing a crime shouldn't be an option and we rather should not partake in what's not legally affordable. But we are humans not saints, of all the things that wrong with the system this probably a very small portion of it.

TLDR; I like to think I am in both camps but mostly in the legal camp these days

There is nothing illegal per sey in grey imports.
Any one or any company may import camera equipment.
It is called grey because they are not authorised by the manufacturer.
Such importing and selling is protected in British and European law.

Some importers and sellers are dishonest and do avoid taxes. These tax avoiders may be grey or authorised. Or may be british registered companies.
There is no reason to suppose grey importers are any more dishonest than any other business. Most grey importers import items not resricted in any way by manufacturers along side their grey items.

Hong Kong was set up as a trading freeport on land leased from China. It has been A major world trade centre ever since. Most of their traders have fine reputations and run legitimate and long standing businesses. No successful world traders like Digital Rev could continue to operate for long if they were dishonest or offered bad deals.

Many large and small trading companies incorporated abroad have tax and duty arrangements with HMRC to collect and pay taxes directly. These include many software sellers and equipment suppliers...from all over the world. It is a normal trading process not an exception.This includes a majority of anti virus and back up programs and many image processing programs. In fact anything sold online as direct sales can be processed in this way with the necessary arrangement with HMRC

 

[Furtim]

There is nothing illegal per sey in grey imports.
Any one or any company may import camera equipment.
It is called grey because they are not authorised by the manufacturer.
Such importing and selling is protected in British and European law.

Some importers and sellers are dishonest and do avoid taxes. These tax avoiders may be grey or authorised. Or may be british registered companies.
There is no reason to suppose grey importers are any more dishonest than any other business. Most grey importers import items not resricted in any way by manufacturers along side their grey items.

Hong Kong was set up as a trading freeport on land leased from China. It has been A major world trade centre ever since. Most of their traders have fine reputations and run legitimate and long standing businesses. No successful world traders like Digital Rev could continue to operate for long if they were dishonest or offered bad deals.

Many large and small trading companies incorporated abroad have tax and duty arrangements with HMRC to collect and pay taxes directly. These include many software sellers and equipment suppliers...from all over the world. It is a normal trading process not an exception.This includes a majority of anti virus and back up programs and many image processing programs. In fact anything sold online as direct sales can be processed in this way with the necessary arrangement with HMRC

If Digital Rev are routinely collecting VAT on the goods they sell, they will have a VAT number, and the VAT collected will be itemised on each and every receipt for their users located in the UK.
If on the other hand Digital Rev are only paying VAT (either directly or via a refund) when an item is stopped and inspected at customs, there would be not VAT added at check-out.

The former is normal trading, and is seen everyday from all sorts of software sellers.
The latter might be seen as some form of VAT evasion.

I *suppose* it's possible that Digital Rev are charging users the non VAT amount, and routinely paying over the equivalent VAT behind the scenes and still managing to make a profit - but come on - what the advantage of that approach - you'd simply lower your prices online and add the VAT and still be 20% cheaper than rest - without all this cloak and dagger business.

 

[Balb0wa]

£405 here,had a few things from e infinity, sister just bought a 100-400mk2 two weeks ago, £1372 ish, a nice saving indeed.

I find panamoz quite dear these days.I know all about the exchange rate, but they just aren't competitive.

https://www.e-infin.com/uk/item/2545/canon_eos_750d_digital_slr_camera_body_only_(kit_box)

 

[davholla]

eGlobal are much cheaper than that and quite reliable https://www.eglobalcentral.co.uk/ca...-55-250mm-is-stm-lens-digital-slr-camera.html