Grey imports snags?

StewartR said:
It's not "questionable"; it's 100% illegal and you know it. If you want to save money, I suggest you should consider stealing one. It works out much cheaper, and it's just as legal.
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Consumer advise at its best :thumbs: Perhaps you could elaborate further and even give some tips
 
Dave1 said:
HDEW are not a Hong Kong retailer.
).
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Well, HDEW are a hong kong retailer - they are actually a bricks and mortar shop in HK - however they also have a warehouse in the UK, to which they ship from their HK base, so they are the importer on sales and the buyer from them doesnt have to worry about issues with Vat and import duty - I assume they are also VAT registered in the Uk as they provide a Vat receipt.

Als might i urge caution about stating things about retailers as facts rather than opinion - it may be the case that Panamoz (or whatever retailer) lies to evade propper duties, it may also be the case that they or whoever claim to operate DPP but actually dont, and I agree with you about the moral dubiousness of buying from any supplier who lies in either case.

However unless we know for an absolute fact that XYZ retailer engages in illicit practice and we have proof , then we shouldn't be stating it as a fact , and doing so could get both the poster and TP/slack media into hot water. ( If we do know it for an absolute fact and have proof it might be wise to post the proof when making such a statement)
 
daugirdas said:
Consumer advise at its best (y) Perhaps you could elaborate further and even give some tips
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Dodgy dave deals from his datsun round the back of the dog and duck* in dagenham - no income tax, no vat, no money back no guarantee... :whistling: :lol:

* this statement is entirely fictious and made only for comedic purposes, if there actually is a dog and duck in dagenham, I'm sure its a fine upstanding establishment and permits no illicit activities whatsoever
 
big soft moose said:
Well, HDEW are a hong kong retailer - they are actually a bricks and mortar shop in HK - however they also have a warehouse in the UK, to which they ship from their HK base, so they are the importer on sales and the buyer from them doesnt have to worry about issues with Vat and import duty - I assume they are also VAT registered in the Uk as they provide a Vat receipt.
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That's just a question of semantics though, whilst they might be in HK, they have a UK operation with UK staff and all their product is imported to that UK operation for sale to customers here and duty and vat are their responsibility (unless things have changed recently).

big soft moose said:
Als might i urge caution about stating things about retailers as facts rather than opinion - it may be the case that Panamoz (or whatever retailer) lies to evade propper duties
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Numerous posters on a variety of forums (including some of the proponents of shopping with them on this forum) have posted of the fact parcels arrive with a declaration as toys/samples/radio equipment etc and substantially reduced valuations, I actually quoted one such post further back.

I'm new to this forum but just wanted to share my experience of buying E-M1 + mZD12-40mm from Panamoz.

I ordered the kit on Tuesday afternoon. I've paid via Paypal (£1450).

The invoice on the outside of the box states 'Sample toy accessory' worth $69 ;-)

Inside I've found a Panamoz warranty card (2 years) with reference nr. In case of a repair/exchange I balieve one has to send the equipment back to Panamoz UK contact address and from there is't being send back to HK for repair/replacement.
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Some more:
I have used Panamoz and had no problems. BUT be aware that they do not do an accurate customs declaration, to dodge the vat. My camera was declared as low value toy accessories. I received it in a few days, no problem. I have since ordered a compact camera from another Hong Kong company which was delivered today after being held by customs for 7 weeks. I have paid the vat and hope to be refunded. You take the gamble and hope for the best. I will not be repeating this again.
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My lens arrived from Panamoz marked as a Toy sample so its not really above board, and i can understand why AVForums wont allow mention of it.
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Google would be your friend if you'd like to read more of them.

big soft moose said:
However unless we know for an absolute fact that XYZ retailer engages in illicit practice and we have proof , then we shouldn't be stating it as a fact , and doing so could get both the poster and TP/slack media into hot water. ( If we do know it for an absolute fact and have proof it might be wise to post the proof when making such a statement)
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As above, there are numerous first hand reports of them doing so.
 
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Dave1 said:
As above, there are numerous first hand reports of them doing so.
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but unless you (or any given poster) has experience of them doing so , then you/they are just repeating hearsay - saying " I bought a camera from XYZ and it was declared as a toy, here's a picture of the packaging" is proof - saying " a bloke i know/my mate bob/ my great aunt flo/some guy on the interwebs bought a camera and they said it was declared as a toy", isn't

I'm not trying to quasi moderate (feel free to post whattever you wish - i merely express an opinion) nor do i really disagree with you about grey import , I'm just thinking that it would be good for all of us if this thread didnt wind up going the same predicitable route to lockage that these threads usually do.
 
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big soft moose said:
I'm just thinking that it would be good for all of us if this thread didnt wind up going the same predicitable route to lockage that these threads usually do.
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Agreed on that point at least ;).

So far everyone has manged to debate and post without getting aggressive and personal. It's been quite refreshing :D.
 
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nah - matty is saying that the sticky is locked and people should pm if they want stuff added to it,

this one is still open as is self evident
 
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kev2010 said:
How do you know this is correct? :)
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Because I've been there while making a connecting flight to see my sister in austrailia
 
I can't remember exactly -however for anyone with concerns about their legitimacy its worth noting that their uk end is also a bricks and mortar operation (unlike various others that operate from peoples spare bedrooms and such) its in wallington , surrey and you can arrange to visit by appointment (not that I ever have)

reading between the lines it seems that a uk electrical retailer has established a tie up with an HK shop in order to import grey items - meaning that when the consumer in the uk makes a purchase it is from the uk opperation and thus the consumer doesn't have to worry about problems with import or about having to budget for import taxes etc on top of the advertised price.

This also means that should your goods not be forthcoming you can take legal action against a UK company , rather than being stuck randomly trying to deal with an overseas entity our of uk juristriction

It is worth noting that certain other grey import companies have claimed to have uk bases, but these have actually turned out to be shipping warehouses owned by courier companies - however this is not the case in Hdews case
 
I assumed Kev meant the address of the HK operation
 
HDEW also ship in gear from the US. My 6D was definitely a North American model and not a HK one. They are also the importer of record so very different from many of the other HK outfits (they deliver from the UK so there are no tax issues to raise).
 
Yes, it was the HK address that interested me. My logic for asking is that I am considering buying a lens but want to make sure all is right. :-)
 
Dave1 said:
So far everyone has manged to debate and post without getting aggressive and personal. It's been quite refreshing :D.
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Absolutely. Like the thread on Scottish independence elsewhere on TP - a very civilised debate.
 
NeilA1975 said:
Panamoz sell delivered duty paid, digital rev sell delivered duty unpaid (onus is on the end customer).
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DigitalRev state on their website, "No Import Tax/Duty to Pay: Any import tax/duty charged will be billed directly to us."
 
Jackwow said:
DigitalRev state on their website, "No Import Tax/Duty to Pay: Any import tax/duty charged will be billed directly to us."
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Not quite, what DigitalRev say is:

When ordering goods from DigitalRev Limited, overseas deliveries may be subject to import duties and taxes, which are levied once the package reaches the specified destination.

Any additional charges for customs clearance must be borne by you, unless an Import Handling Charge is included in the price of the goods. Customs policies vary widely from country to country, so you should contact your local Customs officer for further information.

Additionally, please note that when ordering from DigitalRev Limited, you are considered the sole importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of the country in which you are receiving the goods.
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http://www.digitalrev.com/help/terms-of-conditions-of-sales/MTg2NzcwNg_A_A
 
so they say different things at checkout from what they say in t&C - hmmm
 
I have to say that the more I keep reading about the likes of HDEW and Panamoz they seem really good retail outlets to buy from. Indeed, from what I have read on this forum the customer experience from these 2 companies seems to excel.
 
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So…do DR still refund duty and VAT on request or not? If not, I can see little point in using them having run some of their prices through an online duty and VAT calculator.
 
It depends if they say they will for the item you want. Many years ago I got a Nikon D200 from them and the Ebay listing specifically said they would pay any Import Duty. I did get a bill from HMRC, which I paid, and they reimbursed me very quickly.

If in doubt get in touch with them. They have their own section in the Shopping part of the Forum so you can ask them directly. :)
 
big soft moose said:
so they say different things at checkout from what they say in t&C - hmmm
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There's a few legal terms to describe practises like that, but if I write any of them the Mods will no doubt smite me with a ban.
 
OldCarlos said:
They do now & again. It seems to go through phases though.
Presume they're always on the look-out in general & do manage to catch out a very small % every day, but a few months ago they seemed to be `targeting` certain sellers, panom0z was certainly mentioned at the time. Maybe once the level of interest by purchasers from certain sellers reaches a certain point, the sellers `details` get flagged up?
Also individuals reporting concerns to HMRC & maybe even the logistics companies themselves have legal requirements of notification, especially if they suspect anything dodgy?

Who remembers procamerash0p :) or even BIG Norman :LOL:
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A bit of a pity about procamerashop - their final dispatch location was the UK, making them the importer (rather than the customer) for legal/tax purposes; HMRC can only go after the importer. Well, they can 'guilt' trip (in the psychological sense) anyone they like, but they don't have the same level of call. Oh, and even if you don't approve of their methods and don't do business with them, it's still a good idea to keep quiet as they do have the side-effect of making proper retailers keep their end-prices down. Also, HMRC probably have bigger fish to fry given their limited resources and emphasis on high-value questionable income tax avoidance.

CharlotteM said:
I kind of feel like... well... I guess I hope those £600 of services that you've not paid the government for are ones that you don't need!
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Well, that's as maybe - but given some of the things that public money are squandered on - e.g. warmongering oops I meant defence and keeping dictators in power oops I meant international aid. Many people don't see any benefit from large swathes of public expenditure, including excessive in-work benefits aimed at borderline labour voters. Congratulations on opening a massive can of political worms.

Oh, and importer duties only apply for outside the EU - I have used a couple of good retailers in other EU states (and Amazon.co.uk). Also, when I browse eBay, I use the Location:European Union option, the idea is to cover my backside. I tend to view this as a 'compliance' issue, with the usual do-the-minimum approach. After all, if something comes from outside the EU when I'm not expecting it, it's harder to stick an unsolicited package on me particularly if I had the record that I had entered into the contract on the basis that it was already in the UK. While I might report that, it would be only to the market website operator (such as eBay).

@CharlotteM - what is your take on buying camera gear - or other stuff for that matter - from other EU states?
 
An oldish thread to start again (this topic has been done to death) but, in reply to; " Oh, and even if you don't approve of their methods and don't do business with them, it's still a good idea to keep quiet as they do have the side-effect of making proper retailers keep their end-prices down."

Profit margins, after paying costs & overheads, are tight with kosher UK businesses & they will never be able to compete against grey imports.

The likes of pro camerashop weren't honest in their business practices, so glad they ceased trading.

If they suspect illegal practices, HMRC can go after who they like!!!!!
 
OldCarlos said:
An oldish thread to start again (this topic has been done to death) but, in reply to; " Oh, and even if you don't approve of their methods and don't do business with them, it's still a good idea to keep quiet as they do have the side-effect of making proper retailers keep their end-prices down."

Profit margins, after paying costs & overheads, are tight with kosher UK businesses & they will never be able to compete against grey imports.

The likes of pro camerashop weren't honest in their business practices, so glad they ceased trading.

If they suspect illegal practices, HMRC can go after who they like!!!!!
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That's as maybe, but if you don't tell them then they never know. Oh, and at least keeping the pressure up helps to encourage efficiencies; do these dealers really need massive sites in the most expensive to rent/buy part of the UK?

You wouldn't happen to be a dealer yourself by any chance?
 
Jonathan Shl said:
That's as maybe, but if you don't tell them then they never know. Oh, and at least keeping the pressure up helps to encourage efficiencies; do these dealers really need massive sites in the most expensive to rent/buy part of the UK?

You wouldn't happen to be a dealer yourself by any chance?
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(presuming you are referring to buyers?) If we don't know where we're purchasing from, we won't be aware of the facts & any potential issues. If we know THEN decide to purchase....that's fine.

lol. No I'm not a dealer, or connected in any way. Are you?

Sticky by the Mods on the subject; http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/th...rey-imports-and-other-assorted-topics.512133/
 
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Gary Coyle said:
And this months prize for reviving the deadest thread goes to Jonathan Shi who also seems to have missed the letter T from his name.
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no its definitely there otherwise he'd be jonahon ;)
 
StewartR said:
Jimmy Carr thought that. So did Chris Moyles. They weren't right, and nor are you.
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Jimmy Carr did nothing illegal - it was tax avoidance. If my accountant could reduce my tax exposure to 4% legally I would bite his hand off.
 
I started this thread when trying to buy a D7100 which I eventually bought on here so perhaps I should have archived the thread, can you do that?
 
Frio said:
Jimmy Carr did nothing illegal - it was tax avoidance. If my accountant could reduce my tax exposure to 4% legally I would bite his hand off.
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theres a difference between 'illegal' and wrong though - carr himself said at the time that he "had made a terrible error of judgement"
 
Which is a different point the poster stated that Carr's actions were illegal which they were not.

If I could find a legal way of reducing my rate of tax then I would do it, even if somebody was morally outraged. However, no one cares if I do it because I'm not famous. I would bet a substantial amount of money that Carr made that statement because not doing it would harm his brand more than the benefit he was receiving from his tax position. Nothing to do with whether he thought he had been "immoral".
 
Frio said:
Jimmy Carr did nothing illegal - it was tax avoidance.
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Frio said:
... the poster stated that Carr's actions were illegal which they were not.
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Well, "the poster" was me, and that's not quite what I said.

Here's the original exchange.
mrgubby said:
I'd always thought the difference between avoidance and evasion was a good accountant .....
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StewartR said:
Jimmy Carr thought that. So did Chris Moyles. They weren't right, and nor are you.
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I did not say that Carr or Moyles had done anything illegal, though I can see how one could read that into it. The point I was making is that your accountant can't wave some sort of magic wand and turn evasion into avoidance. Both Carr and Moyles, and many more less famous people of course, weren't prepared to look a gift horse in the mouth when their accountants assured them that these dodgy-looking schemes were legal. It seems that Carr was probably lucky (in the sense that - so far as I can tell - his scheme hasn't been ruled illegal) and Moyles wasn't. But I suggest that it could easily have been the other way round.

Frio said:
If my accountant could reduce my tax exposure to 4% legally I would bite his hand off.
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Well, we all would, wouldn't we? Wouldn't we? I dunno. The key issue is how you satisfy yourself that it really is legal. Assuming that your accountant will get it right isn't necessarily reliable...
 
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