Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

I've bought one thing from HDEW in the past and I got a VAT receipt from HDEW with a VAT no registered to VALIDHUST - bearing in mind the quantity of stuff that must be bought from the HDEW website, it would be interesting to know exactly how the VAT category 'Dormant' applies.
 
gramps said:
I've bought one thing from HDEW in the past and I got a VAT receipt from HDEW with a VAT no registered to VALIDHUST - bearing in mind the quantity of stuff that must be bought from the HDEW website, it would be interesting to know exactly how the VAT category 'Dormant' applies.
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Its perfectly legal to have a Ltd company trading as one name, and have another Ltd company that is the same name as the trading name (but without the Ltd) - where it gets tricky is if both companies are trading and in the same field - then you get into a world of 'passing off' confusion.

Indeed many comapnies do this and hold the trading names in dormant companies - this is very cheap and cost effective way of holding the name (thus maintaining ownership and in a lot of cases preventing someone else from registering it)

So Validhurst may be doing nothing wrong with their VAT receipts, but as I said before it should say Validhurst Ltd trading as HDEW cameras on it if the invoice is issued as HDEW Cameras but the VAT no is that of Validhurst Ltd. I have not seen one of their invoices so don't know what it actually says.

But before anyone decides to have XYZ Ltd trading as Canon Cameras, there will be a number of trademark laws (and a rather large legal team at Canon) ready to prevent that!!
 
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Mr Perceptive said:
it should say Validhurst Ltd trading as HDEW cameras on it if the invoice is issued as HDEW Cameras but the VAT no is that of Validhurst Ltd. I have not seen one of their invoices so don't know what it actually says.
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It was issued by HDEW with the Validhurst VAT No on it but no mention of Validhurst ... it was only my subsequent digging that brought up any connection to Validhurst.
 
Mr Perceptive said:
So Validhurst may be doing nothing wrong with their VAT receipts, but as I said before it should say Validhurst Ltd trading as HDEW cameras on it if the invoice is issued as HDEW Cameras but the VAT no is that of Validhurst Ltd. I have not seen one of their invoices so don't know what it actually says.
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It is an offence to supply a VAT invoice without the registered company's details correctly visible on the invoice.

Don't ask me how I know :rolleyes:
 
And because e.bay now allegedly collects/ pays v.a.t that makes them o.k , but they can probably afford to do that due to the fact that there getting a totally illegal income by charging us selling fees on postage that we are paying to send the items .
So I.e you sell a FF camera and lens it’s quite heavy and expensive so has to go special delivery for insurance , costs you the seller around £26 to send ( all hypothetical figures) they are then charging you a fee of circa 10% on that so £2.60 of fees on your own money that you have already paid income tax on . And your moaning about companies that sell you genuine goods at a saving
 
the black fox said:
And because e.bay now allegedly collects/ pays v.a.t that makes them o.k , but they can probably afford to do that due to the fact that there getting a totally illegal [citation needed] income by charging us selling fees on postage that we are paying to send the items. ... And your moaning about companies that sell you genuine goods at a saving [that includes all the tax you dodged].
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the black fox said:
And because e.bay now allegedly collects/ pays v.a.t that makes them o.k , but they can probably afford to do that due to the fact that there getting a totally illegal income by charging us selling fees on postage that we are paying to send the items .
So I.e you sell a FF camera and lens it’s quite heavy and expensive so has to go special delivery for insurance , costs you the seller around £26 to send ( all hypothetical figures) they are then charging you a fee of circa 10% on that so £2.60 of fees on your own money that you have already paid income tax on . And your moaning about companies that sell you genuine goods at a saving
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Not illegal.

And they did it because otherwise people charged £10 for a camera with £900 postage to avoid fees.
 
jerry12953 said:
This thread should be transferred to the "I always wanted to be an accountant/tax inspector" forum.

Mods - please start one up now!
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I guess you haven’t read the thread :(.
 
jerry12953 said:
I've read most of it, skimmed the rest, and contributed several times. Not enough for you?
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Never mind. I read your contributions previously.
 
the black fox said:
And because e.bay now allegedly collects/ pays v.a.t that makes them o.k , but they can probably afford to do that due to the fact that there getting a totally illegal income by charging us selling fees on postage that we are paying to send the items .
So I.e you sell a FF camera and lens it’s quite heavy and expensive so has to go special delivery for insurance , costs you the seller around £26 to send ( all hypothetical figures) they are then charging you a fee of circa 10% on that so £2.60 of fees on your own money that you have already paid income tax on . And your moaning about companies that sell you genuine goods at a saving
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If you buy the postage through Ebay, they reimburse that fee.
 
ive brought 2 bodies from panamoz now and a couple of lenses. No issues had to use the warranty once. I sent it too nikon they sent me a quote for the repair cost, i forwarded to panamoz, they paid it to me within 1 hr no issues what so ever.
 
Getting back on track Panama’s are now dearer than my bricks and mortar shop in Cambridge for at least one Canon RF lens. Their prices seem to have risen to make them a non starter now?
 
GordonM said:
Getting back on track Panama’s are now dearer than my bricks and mortar shop in Cambridge for at least one Canon RF lens. Their prices seem to have risen to make them a non starter now?
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When checking sporadically I do find that their lenses are not as heavily discounted in comparison to bodies, especially higher end bodies such as the A1, A7Riv, R5 etc. A few lenses I've got my eye on are only a £100 or so less and I'm not sure that's enough for me.

The A7R iv is £3,199 in the UK but Panamoz have it at £2,190. That's a pretty big difference and looking at the Canon R5 in the UK at £4,299 compared to £2,950 at Panamoz, well that's even better! lol
 
gman said:
The A7R iv is £3,199 in the UK but Panamoz have it at £2,190. That's a pretty big difference and looking at the Canon R5 in the UK at £4,299 compared to £2,950 at Panamoz, well that's even better! lol
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And if you buy from B&H and pay the VAT the effective price somewhere in the middle.

So one might assume from that there is a bit of price gouging going on in the UK market for this product.

So which is more moral - the company that gouges - or the company that plays the dodgier grey market game - or the company / individual that plays the honest grey market game and still makes a large saving over the UK gouge price.

My view is the first is most despucable because it will be righteous while gouging, the second is alost as despicable.

That leaves the the third as the more moral choice - it doesn't support either of the first two.

Arguably the most moral choice for a UK customer is to avoid buying the product and choose an alternative supplier that doesn't gouge the UK market. If enough of us followed that practice then the price gouging wouldn't be such an easy option in the first place and collectively we'd all benefit.
 
As I mentioned in my first contribution to the thread, I largely agree with what you say, Andrew and I have been under the impression that the third choice is what I've been making. I understand there's some reservations about these companies but HDEW certainly issues a VAT receipt and I'm not educated enough about it to argue. There is no duty on the bodies I have bought from them so that seems above board to me. I contacted them today to confirm and they replied :

" I can confirm our price are inclusive of VAT and we are able to provide a VAT invoice upon request"

So unless they are bare-faced liars, which I do not believe, they are in the clear from my point of view. If they are falsifying documents and trading unscrupulously by misleading me and others, that's a matter for law enforcement or regulatory bodies to sort out. I don't believe they have taken any action and so i don't believe they are doing anything wrong. i will continue to buy from this excellent company.
 
There are reasons why products are more expensive in the UK and Western countries. Higher wages, higher building occupancy costs being two. Safety and employment legislation are two more.
 
Pound Coin said:
There are reasons why products are more expensive in the UK and Western countries. Higher wages, higher building occupancy costs being two. Safety and employment legislation are two more.
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And how do these apparently higher uk costs feed through into buying cameras and lenses through a grey reseller when they are all made in the same facility in se asia by the same people at the same time under the same sheq regime. Costs are higher in the uk official channel because the manufacturer can ignore manufacturing costs through that channel and believes thats the mrrp level which will maximise profit within that regional space taking account of competition and customer attitude. Official route distributers are forced down that mrrp cost

with regard property costs see below

https://www.cbre.com.sg/about/media...e-housing-market-in-the-world-after-hong-kong.

Note the average price in hong kong by area is 3 times that that of London and London isn’t typical of the UK pricing.
 
Actually Hong Kong is 17% higher than London, not 3 times.
 
Pound Coin said:
Actually Hong Kong is 17% higher than London, not 3 times.
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What $2100/ sq ft opposed to $780/ sq ft. looks pretty close to 3 times to me

can you answer the part about higher prices being based on increased uk costs for a product manufactured in se asia.
 
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Jim_Tod said:
What $2100/ sq ft opposed to $780/ sq ft. looks pretty close to 3 times to me

can you answer the part about higher prices being based on increased uk costs for a product manufactured in se asia.
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Well, I guess if you want to look at buying rather than renting your figures make sense.
i’m not aware of many businesses that buy houses to trade out of though.

My figures (which I accept are housing, not retail) were from the same report, but for rental. I’d have to do more research on commercial rents. Does Hong Kong have Business Rates?

Edit. Quick and dirty searching reveals property tax of 15% in HK and retail business rates might be double or treble that in UK.

I guess it shows that it is not easy taking a single figure and extrapolating it to make a point.
 
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Jim_Tod said:
And how do these apparently higher uk costs feed through into buying cameras and lenses through a grey reseller when they are all made in the same facility in se asia by the same people at the same time under the same sheq regime. Costs are higher in the uk official channel because the manufacturer can ignore manufacturing costs through that channel and believes thats the mrrp level which will maximise profit within that regional space taking account of competition and customer attitude. Official route distributers are forced down that mrrp cost

with regard property costs see below

https://www.cbre.com.sg/about/media...e-housing-market-in-the-world-after-hong-kong.

Note the average price in hong kong by area is 3 times that that of London and London isn’t typical of the UK pricing.
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Since it’s not illegal to import cameras why don’t retailers simply do that then and collect the VAT? The only example is HDEW and it is very unclear whether they are collecting VAT (I’m not sure either way).
 
gman said:
When checking sporadically I do find that their lenses are not as heavily discounted in comparison to bodies, especially higher end bodies such as the A1, A7Riv, R5 etc. A few lenses I've got my eye on are only a £100 or so less and I'm not sure that's enough for me.

The A7R iv is £3,199 in the UK but Panamoz have it at £2,190. That's a pretty big difference and looking at the Canon R5 in the UK at £4,299 compared to £2,950 at Panamoz, well that's even better! lol
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Yes to be honest I agree I did look at UK shop prices when I got my R5 but bought it from Panamoz , I just couldn’t afford or justify paying £1349 more for a camera to put it in context my previous camera that I bought was about £850 a used 6D2
 
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wooster said:
As I mentioned in my first contribution to the thread, I largely agree with what you say, Andrew and I have been under the impression that the third choice is what I've been making. I understand there's some reservations about these companies but HDEW certainly issues a VAT receipt and I'm not educated enough about it to argue. There is no duty on the bodies I have bought from them so that seems above board to me. I contacted them today to confirm and they replied :

" I can confirm our price are inclusive of VAT and we are able to provide a VAT invoice upon request"

So unless they are bare-faced liars, which I do not believe, they are in the clear from my point of view. If they are falsifying documents and trading unscrupulously by misleading me and others, that's a matter for law enforcement or regulatory bodies to sort out. I don't believe they have taken any action and so i don't believe they are doing anything wrong. i will continue to buy from this excellent company.
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The vat receipt has no mention of the company name the vat reg number belongs to, so it's not valid. Regardless of whether action has been taken or not, the vat receipt requirements are clear, and this does not meet them.
 
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sphexx said:
Since it’s not illegal to import cameras why don’t retailers simply do that then and collect the VAT? The only example is HDEW and it is very unclear whether they are collecting VAT (I’m not sure either way).
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Well HDEW per se can't be can they as they are a 'dormant' company?
Their prices are around the same as 'grey' and VAT invoices (according to their T&C's) are only provided on goods collected from the store and by specific request - odd?
 
On a side note I noticed that HDEW sell apple laptops how does that work , I thought apple prices were the same worldwide but maybe I’m wrong there
 
sphexx said:
Since it’s not illegal to import cameras why don’t retailers simply do that then and collect the VAT? The only example is HDEW and it is very unclear whether they are collecting VAT (I’m not sure either way).
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Nobody claiming that 'grey' importers are paying all fees and taxes owed can answer this one...

Could it be that once you've added 20% and taken into account the cost of doing business in the UK (and exchange rates), it's simply not possible to undercut UK prices by any meaningful amount :)

We have a couple of current examples, both with questionable practices, and a guy who used to sell US stuff on eBay years ago.
 
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Pound Coin said:
Well, I guess if you want to look at buying rather than renting your figures make sense.
i’m not aware of many businesses that buy houses to trade out of though.

My figures (which I accept are housing, not retail) were from the same report, but for rental. I’d have to do more research on commercial rents. Does Hong Kong have Business Rates?

Edit. Quick and dirty searching reveals property tax of 15% in HK and retail business rates might be double or treble that in UK.

I guess it shows that it is not easy taking a single figure and extrapolating it to make a point.
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I’ve no knowledge either way about HK property prices but whenever I see film of families in HK there always seems to be about 15 people living in a flat with tiny rooms that would house a couple and their child in U.K. I guess they would have several family incomes coming in and may may be able to afford a high rent by U.K. standards.

How this translates to commercial property I’ve no idea though we’ve all seen those tech businesses in China which are virtually indoor street markets rather than posh company offices.
 
LCPete said:
On a side note I noticed that HDEW sell apple laptops how does that work , I thought apple prices were the same worldwide but maybe I’m wrong there
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I don’t think that’s true though exchange rates obscure it. If you read Apple U.K.‘s description of their responsibility under U.K. law (which is a very good one) it’s obvious that they are potentially exposed to more claims than in the US.

I don’t know about Apple but in the US there is very little statutory paid vacations (what we call holidays) or holidays (what we call Bank Holidays etc) and that must be a trading advantage against the U.K. They also of course have a vast pool of so-called undocumented labour who have to work for low wages.
 
Well it's been interesting to hear these views, but we're now so far into the realms of speculation, I feel it's not really feasible to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Meantime, I'm a happy HDEW customer and I've bought bodies from Panamoz ( whose lens prices are on a par with WEX (IIRC) presumably due to higher import duty and whose customer service is excellent.
 
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sphexx said:
I don’t think that’s true though exchange rates obscure it. If you read Apple U.K.‘s description of their responsibility under U.K. law (which is a very good one) it’s obvious that they are potentially exposed to more claims than in the US.

I don’t know about Apple but in the US there is very little statutory paid vacations (what we call holidays) or holidays (what we call Bank Holidays etc) and that must be a trading advantage against the U.K. They also of course have a vast pool of so-called undocumented labour who have to work for low wages.
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It's not just holidays, we have "unlimited" sick days, half-decent maternity/paternity laws (i.e. with some amount of pay and job guarantee up to a year) etc etc etc
 
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