Grey Vs Used. Am I missing something?

holty said:
looks like we need to have a dodgy and stolen goods forum section :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
:police::police::police:
Click to expand...
So true. I once bought a lens from a seller in Russia who was selling a camera and complete line of lenses. He was happy to let me buy the pieces rather than required purchase of the whole lot. I had the distinct feeling from him that the kit was 'hot', and he wanted to get it all sold fast. The cost of the lens was very cheap, and he offered me a considerable discount on all the other pieces as well. Several times he raised the discount like any price was a good price to him. I wish I could find other sellers like that.
 
Last edited:
rob-nikon said:
I never said they are currently trawling forums hence the IF in the sentence. I just don’t think it’s a good idea saying you’re done it and saved hundreds buying all your kit grey on an OPEN forum in a thread where it’s also pointed out you COULD potentially be breaking import regulations. You can’t exactly plead innocent that you didn’t do it or didn’t know you were doing something wrong.

I wouldn’t say they would need to trawl forums to find evidence, it would just need a key word search by a bot. It’s not like googling ‘grey import photography’ won’t bring up a talk photography as the 9th result where people have said they knowingly bought grey and saved lots. You..........
Click to expand...

14th
 
gerry s said:
14th
Click to expand...
Sorry I forgot the ‘s’ when typing on my phone earlier :rolleyes:. ‘Grey import photography’ is 14th like you say, ‘grey imports photography’ is actually 7th now I’ve searched it again on my iPad when home. The point being whether it’s 14th or 7th it’s not difficult to search what is on this forum as it’s an open searchable forum (barring the business section which I gather google can’t search).
 
HDEW are a fascinating example as to my knowledge nobody has figured out how they do it. VAT receipts at those prices is impressive to say the least. It's also interesting that they only carry a specific range of gear from a limited number of manufacturers, so presumably whatever arrangement they have isn't possible with everything.
 
West Camera said:
So true. I once bought a lens from a seller in Russia who was selling a camera and complete line of lenses. He was happy to let me buy the pieces rather than required purchase of the whole lot. I had the distinct feeling from him that the kit was 'hot', and he wanted to get it all sold fast. The cost of the lens was very cheap, and he offered me a considerable discount on all the other pieces as well. Several times he raised the discount like any price was a good price to him. I wish I could find other sellers like that.
Click to expand...
Top tip - simply mug a passing photographer and cut out the middleman. Distracted hipsters are the best - you can score some high quality classic film gear that way.
 
jerry12953 said:
As an aside, it appears to me that with many items there appears to be some kind of price-fixing going on. All the officially approved retailers charge more or less exactly the same price for the same piece of kit. If there was genuine competition between retailers prices would be much lower and there would be less incentive to buy grey.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's price fixing as such, more like manufacturers setting a recommended retail price and asking retailers to stick to it.
Back in the 90s I owned a pet business and I started selling a good dry dog food cheaper.
Within a few days I received a phone call from my distributor informing me that another retailer had found out was selling it cheaper and unless I changed the price they would stop selling the product to me.
I didn't think I was doing anything wrong but I had to agree as the product was taking the market by storm and I didn't want to lose out.
 
hashcake said:
I don't think it's price fixing as such, more like manufacturers setting a recommended retail price and asking retailers to stick to it.
Back in the 90s I owned a pet business and I started selling a good dry dog food cheaper.
Within a few days I received a phone call from my distributor informing me that another retailer had found out was selling it cheaper and unless I changed the price they would stop selling the product to me.
I didn't think I was doing anything wrong but I had to agree as the product was taking the market by storm and I didn't want to lose out.
Click to expand...
hashcake said:
I don't think it's price fixing as such, more like manufacturers setting a recommended retail price and asking retailers to stick to it.
Back in the 90s I owned a pet business and I started selling a good dry dog food cheaper.
Within a few days I received a phone call from my distributor informing me that another retailer had found out was selling it cheaper and unless I changed the price they would stop selling the product to me.
I didn't think I was doing anything wrong but I had to agree as the product was taking the market by storm and I didn't want to lose out.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much the text book description of price fixing and highly illegal! Any two competitors discussing and agreeing to set a price means jail time! We had that drummed into us at length on various corporate course - even had a chap from BA who'd done prison time in the US for having a chat in Heathrow come over and talk to us.
 
Two words "Tax Evasion" unless the company you are buying from is UK vat registered and you should also declare it if you know it has not incurred VAT and import duty.

If however you have no moral conscience and don't like the thought of supporting the NHS and other good causes then buy grey and didge the TAX and duty.
 
Mr Bump said:
If however you have no moral conscience and don't like the thought of supporting the NHS and other good causes then buy grey and didge the TAX and duty.
Click to expand...
Harsh but fair. :plus1:
 
HJC1972 said:
Is grey that risky that buying second hand (even accounting for limited S/H warranty) is still attractive?
Click to expand...

Maybe we should all take this back to the ops original question and drop the moral high ground, pretty sure the op never asked about morals and the rights and wrongs of it.

The question was "is grey that risky"

and the answer to that from this thread has to be "No" many have used reputable companies as you mentioned and very few (if any) have any problems.
 
scott199 said:
Maybe we should all take this back to the ops original question and drop the moral high ground.
Click to expand...
I did once hear someone on the radio say that "only the immoral don't want to discuss morality"...

:naughty: :coat:
 
scott199 said:
Maybe we should all take this back to the ops original question and drop the moral high ground, pretty sure the op never asked about morals and the rights and wrongs of it.

The question was "is grey that risky"

and the answer to that from this thread has to be "No" many have used reputable companies as you mentioned and very few (if any) have any problems.
Click to expand...

I think the comments about the possible imposition of duty and taxes missed out, and attendant fines, are an indication of risk.
 
Please excuse my ignorance, but is there VAT added to second hand goods ? E.G gear bought used from the like of MPB ?
 
Mr Bump said:
Two words "Tax Evasion" unless the company you are buying from is UK vat registered and you should also declare it if you know it has not incurred VAT and import duty.

If however you have no moral conscience and don't like the thought of supporting the NHS and other good causes then buy grey and didge the TAX and duty.
Click to expand...

While 2 wrongs don’t make a right, if the government had a moral conscience then some people may not abuse the system. For example, the practice of fining kids who are high achieving and over 90% attendance get fined for missing school is to me immoral and especially when other kids (travellers) do not get fined. Not saying it’s right but you can see why people do things to ‘get back’.

Similar to fly tipping, councils put many barriers in the way to disposing of stuff and then moan when people fly tip!
 
Furtim said:
That's pretty much the text book description of price fixing and highly illegal! Any two competitors discussing and agreeing to set a price means jail time! We had that drummed into us at length on various corporate course - even had a chap from BA who'd done prison time in the US for having a chat in Heathrow come over and talk to us.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that a manufacturer who sets the RRP is doing something illegal or it's illegal for them to insist that retailers sell their products at the same price?
 
hashcake said:
Are you saying that a manufacturer who sets the RRP is doing something illegal or it's illegal for them to insist that retailers sell their products at the same price?
Click to expand...
No, it's perfectly legal to set a Recommended price. It's also perfectly legal for one competitor to decide to charge the same (or undercut) another by looking at their prices etc.

The illegality comes from the different parties talking about pricing and enforcing minimums etc.
 
Furtim said:
No, it's perfectly legal to set a Recommended price. It's also perfectly legal for one competitor to decide to charge the same (or undercut) another by looking at their prices etc.

The illegality comes from the different parties talking about pricing and enforcing minimums etc.
Click to expand...


It looks like some kind of price fixing is going on, but the point is, in the context of this discussion, there is virtually no competition amongst the main camera retailers so it is hardly surprising that buyers go grey.
 
jerry12953 said:
It looks like some kind of price fixing is going on,
Click to expand...
As I tried to explain earlier: in a tight market where there is only one supplier of goods then the prices can as easily cluster around the lowest practical retail price due to competition as because collusion is happening. The effect is the same but the cause quite different.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
As I tried to explain earlier: in a tight market where there is only one supplier of goods then the prices can as easily cluster around the lowest practical retail price due to competition as because collusion is happening. The effect is the same but the cause quite different.
Click to expand...


You can repeat yourself if you like but I'm not convinced. The process is just TOO widespread.
 
holty said:
i meant for buying dodgy gear not reportingg it
:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
Click to expand...
The last person that tried that got banned and a call from the boys in blue :p
 
jerry12953 said:
You can repeat yourself if you like but I'm not convinced. The process is just TOO widespread.
Click to expand...
Out of interest, have you ever worked in a retail environment or had anything to do with management accounting?
 
jerry12953 said:
It looks like some kind of price fixing is going on, but the point is, in the context of this discussion, there is virtually no competition amongst the main camera retailers so it is hardly surprising that buyers go grey.
Click to expand...

I'll think you'll find that without manufacturer support (ie a promotion) the retailer margins are small (think single digit %) or even non-existent. There is at least one camera manufacturer where you effectively sell the cameras at Trade price, and the as a retailer you receive a quarterly or annual cashback based on your volume of sales. There is less room to manouvere than you might think.

Ancillary components (add-ons) like bags, filters, etc have more margin in them, but bodies and lenses do not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nod
jimgallaher said:
Please excuse my ignorance, but is there VAT added to second hand goods ? E.G gear bought used from the like of MPB ?
Click to expand...

There is but usually it's done via a margin scheme, there's two main differences between it and standard VAT:

For the customer a normal purchase would have VAT that they can reclaim but you can't reclaim the VAT on a margin scheme purchase.
For the seller instead of standard VAT they have to calculate the profit and then pay 1/6 of that profit as VAT.
 
I read up on the margin scheme, I'm very doubtful the customer buying the second hand gear will benefit from it.
 
jimgallaher said:
I read up on the margin scheme, I'm very doubtful the customer buying the second hand gear will benefit from it.
Click to expand...

Indirectly, without the margin scheme there would be fewer businesses offering used goods to customers and it also means those customers get stuff at lower prices than they otherwise would.
 
simonbarker said:
Indirectly,
Click to expand...
...and directly in that the VAT goes into the pot which pays for roads, schools, hospitals, police, the armed forces, etc, etc, etc...

Where do you think the resources to run our society come from?
 
Mugs that pay taxes...
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
...and directly in that the VAT goes into the pot which pays for roads, schools, hospitals, police, the armed forces, etc, etc, etc...

Where do you think the resources to run our society come from?
Click to expand...

Did you even bother to take the time to understand what I was talking about before becoming offended?
 
simonbarker said:
Did you even bother to take the time to understand what I was talking about before becoming offended?
Click to expand...
What makes you think that you offended me? :wideyed:
 
Mr Bump said:
Two words "Tax Evasion" unless the company you are buying from is UK vat registered and you should also declare it if you know it has not incurred VAT and import duty.

If however you have no moral conscience and don't like the thought of supporting the NHS and other good causes then buy grey and didge the TAX and duty.
Click to expand...
Presumably not while ordering a Starbucks, or buying anything from Amazon?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top