Group Portrait - Help Needed

G2EWS

G2EWS

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Name
Chris
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Hi Folks,

Next weekend I have been tasked with taking a group family shot for Grandad's birthday and getting it framed.

There will be 15 people including me! Youngest is 10 so no real worries about babies!
I have the Elinchrom d-lite 2 studio kit along with snoot, reflector, stand for the back drop and a white, black and cloudy back drop.

To be honest I have only every used the black backdrop as I have never managed to learn enough to use the white and cloud ones!

I will be using the D300 with the Nikon 24 - 120 lens.

My inexperienced thoughts after much researching are as follows:

One light behind the camera.
Set camera at F8 - F11
Group will be grandparents in the middle on chairs, with three Daughters and Hubbies behind and to the sides. Two youngest grandchildren on the floor turning in and leaning on the grandparents knees. Remaining children who are older on either side.
I have picked up that the group will be turned slightly inwards from the outsides and that no head will be behind and above another.

The question is, am I going down the right route or have I made a fool of myself on this forum and got it totally wrong?

My biggest concern is the black back drop which may cause a problem with hair lines, but the truth is I have not experienced this before only read about it.

Perhaps you have taken such a picture and can show it to give me some idea what I should be looking for!

Regards

Chris
 
unless its a HUGE background , if you want to get all 15 at once, your gonna struggle to get em all in.
cant see why a black backdrop wont work.
tends to look rather formal.
if youve got different colours, give em all a go.
maybe two lights would be better, unless you got lots of abient light.one either side, and to the rear of the camera?
 
I think what you have planned is fine.

Is the back drop in a studio?

Have you thought about a more relaxed photo say in the garden or locaal park?

I did a similar thing a while back and took the whole group of 12 gatherered with trees ect in the background, then I took a couple of dozen of various members and put then in a photo book.

So the grandparents had one large framed photo of every one and then 24 relaxed family pics in a photo book for them to treasure.

Just a thought.
 
Hi,

Thanks for the thoughts.

It's not a huge backdrop and it did occur to me that it may be a problem.

The studio is my front room, here are a couple of photos we have done recently:

compilation-1.jpg


This is a compilation created by my friend Stew of my Daughter In Law and Grandchildren, taken a few weeks ago.

DSCF8411.jpg


This is a picture of my Daughter (2nd one in) and her cousins taken last year.

Whilst I have a nice garden with good features, I cannot think of anywhere that would have a suitable background. The alternative may be the field next door. But of course that is all down to the weather!

Regards

Chris
 
First you need to decide on what kind of group photo you want as the end result here: formal or informal. The answer to that would determine whether to use the black background, does it not?

15 people is a lot. And seeing as it is a family I would try to make the photo show a family. How about having someone else* taking a group photo looking down from a high vantage point (a balcony? A roof?) onto the whole, bunched up family (standing!) looking up at the camera, and collectively saying 'SEX' at the same time?
Do it in daylight with fill-in flash and you may get a very nice, relaxed and informal group photo of a happy family, where every individual's face is very visible.

*although the D300's selftimer is programmable, I would advise you to not try to run from this camera viewpoint to the group to include yourself...
It is, in any case, recommendable to have a real live photographer behind a camera that takes portraits and group shots.
 
Hi Alfred,

Many thanks for the idea. I do have a balcony that overlooks my garden and you may have solved the problem if the weather holds next Saturday.

I have not really thought about the black background being formal, but now you mention it I suppose it is obvious. However, I posted the two piccies above to show that we have, I hope, managed to get a relaxed atmosphere with the black. I am not for one moment saying the pictures are perfect, but they made me and the family happy.

I take it you are a professional photographer?

I don't think it is such a bad thing having amateurs like me taking photos and indeed that is why the photography business is booming so much. I have a friend who gets sittings for most of his cold calls. I wonder how many of them have superb digital cameras, but maybe not the inclination?

I guess I go the other way! My gear is semi pro and I am prepared to spend within reason what it takes to get my results, but as to making a living out of it! Write me out of that equation, it does not interest me at all! It is for me a hobby, just like my American RV that sits down the side of the house along with the newly built 23 year old classic cabriolet Mini! These things cost a lot of money but they are hobbies and we all have them.

Regards

Chris
 
good luck with your shoot and hope it goes well. I prefer to shoot on black anyway, but i'm also a fan of the outdoors (weather permitting!) xx
 
G2, it is not the gear that makes the photo. It is the guy behind the camera that does!
Robert Capa, Henri Cartier-Bresson, David Hamilton, etc. etc. didn't have nearly the gear you have (not even better quality optics in most cases). Yet they are world famous photographers... So there is literally nothing about your gear that is stopping you from greatness. It is what you do with it that makes the difference.
 
Hi Alfred,

You are of course correct and I thank you for your observations.

The difference between these great names, at least in my limited knowledge of their names is what equipment is available. I remember reading an article about a photographer who worked for David Bailey and he explained that he had to get to the studio hours before him and spend most of that time polishing the lenses and preparing the cameras.

Those lenses and cameras where the best available! So some people who can afford the best, buy the best!

I have also seen a professional photographer use a camera phone and take a picture that would have made me very proud with the best equipment!

I guess it is all about learning and sometimes learning from others, which is one of the reasons I am very pleased to have found this site! Sometimes it's about trial and error and working at a solution to a problem. If you are dedicated at what you are doing, you WILL succeed, be it a hobby or a profession, it is always the passion and as I have been teaching sales people and business men for years, success is about having a determination to succeed, nothing more nothing less!

Regards

Chris
 
G2EWS said:
[...] success is about having a determination to succeed, nothing more nothing less! [...]
Click to expand...

Sorry to disagree, Chris. Imo 1) talent, 2) having 'the eye', and 3) pure coincidence (being in the right place at the right time), play the bigger part in the equation. Yet, precisely because one cannot influence those factors, it makes sense to make sure one does influence the factors one can: knowledge, practice, and gear. In that order!
But neither singularly nor combined will they ever beat the first three factors.
 
Hi Alfred,

Little bit of a contradiction! You do appear to agree with me!

Talent and having the eye in your words, are skills that can be learnt. Having the determination to succeed at learning these skills is what I am talking about.

Of course there are those people who will never believe that they can do or achieve anything and the amazing thing is they are right!

If you start with a positive mental attitude about anything you want to achieve there is nothing that can stop you. In business, statistics tells us that success is preset on average by 7 failures. Those that have the determination to see the failures through will succeed because they truly believe they can. Those that give up at any one of the hurdles were not meant to be there in the first place.

Some good philosophy there!

Regards

Chris
 
G2EWS said:
[...] Talent and having the eye in your words, are skills that can be learnt. [...]
Click to expand...

Talent and skills are two separate and distinct concepts. Talent is innate. Skills can be acquired. I think you're confusing the two.
 
Hi Alfred,

Gosh we could go on for ever couldn't we?

I have been involved with the bringing out of 'talent' in individuals for many years. Indeed I have made people very successful by doing this.

Some of these people believed they were not capable of having 'talent' at anything. I have seen grown men cry when they realise their own capabilities.

Once these talents were established and accepted by the individuals it was then simple to teach the skills required to achieve more!

So I have no doubt whatever and indeed there are a lot of people out there that I have been involved with who would agree that 'talent' can indeed be found inside almost anyone!

Bit cryptic but I have been involved with people from every walk of life and some so called 3rd world countries!

Regards

Chris
 
Hi Chris

Apart from issues with the size of group, a black background can be a bit stark if anyone in the group has dark hair...you'll just see their face and the hair vanishes against the backdrop! If you can do it somewhere outside that can work better for an informal group shot, and a personal preference is for greenery in the background. Just 'me tuppence worth!

Cheers

George
 
Hi George,

Thanks for that, am looking at how I can achieve that with Alfred's great idea of using my balcony. Keeping my fingers crossed for fine weather on Saturday(y)

I have recently built a covered area in the garden of 6 x 3m with decking. I think I need to put my imaginative head on to see how that can be used if we get rain.

I will take a couple of pictures in the morning and see if anyone else can come up with any thoughts.

Regards

Chris
 
Hello Chris,

I think that you need to have the idea of shooting outside as more than an option if the weather is good. There is basically no way that you will get a good shot of 15 people against a small backdrop, in a front room with a couple of low output flash heads. The problems with getting that setup to work are many and varied and will cost you most of, if not all of your hair.

Outside is great if possible but you may want to start thinking about possible indoor locations in large open and bright public spaces.

Also, on your debate with Alfred I have to agree with him completely about the talent issue. You can learn the rules of composition and the all the techy craft stuff but a good eye for balance cannot be taught. It's there or it's not, a bit like a third nipple. ;)
 
Hi again Chris

Just a thought, if the weather's bad and you do this indoors, your arrangement above with three "layers" 4 front, 5 middle and 6 rear will need about 10-12' width and require a depth of field to cover around 6' front to back. If it's a standard paper roll, it will be around 8' wide, so too small. What indoors backgrounds are available to you? Any expanse of plain patterned curtains anywhere on any of your windows? Closed full length curtains would do the trick. I don't know the studio set up you mentioned, but if you have a second light and stand, subtle back lighting can lift the photo with detail around the hair. You'd need a wide enough spread (light set well back, which may be difficult in a house) to cover the six adults at the back row, and set 2-3 stops lower than your main light so the effect doesn't overpower. Although the snoot is good for this with a small group, it will probably be too directional to catch all six.

I'll look forward to reading how you get on!

Cheers

George
 
Hi dazzajl,

Many thanks for your information. I guess as a total amateur I could not see this, but you amongst others have made me realise the error or my ways so to speak!

With regards to the 'talent' debate there will be a lot of people around the world very upset if they thought they could not be taught to bring out a talent that they do not have but want! However, the debate is futile. As I mentioned, anyone who believes something firmly will almost certainly find that it is true and they are vindicated by their beliefs. So if you don't believe that 'talent' can be found in anyone, who am I to try and convince you otherwise? For you as an individual you are absolutely 100% correct!

Hi George,

Once again many thanks for giving this more effort. I am coming to the conclusion that my photos of the family grouped together in the past were just snapshots! You have all convinced me that it would be very difficult to get a good portrait in my living room. So reckon it's either outside, taken from the balcony or making use of this somehow:

DSC_1015.jpg


DSC_1003.jpg


The area is 6 x 3M and depending on the weather I could clear the table from under the cover or clear the area were the fire basket is. Guess I will have to make my mind up on the day!

Regards

Chris
 
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