Has Canon dropped the ball?

Gaz J

Gaz J

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Without wishing to start a "Nikon is better that Canon" argument do you think that Canon have missed a trick with the seemingly endless delays in bringing high end products such as the 1DX and the 200-400 zoom lens to the market.

The lens has been in development since early 2011 and probably a lot longer than that and dealers have been taking pre orders for the camera since the start of the year and yet still no sign of them.

I am sure that the olympics is taking priority on stocks but to me it seems that Nikon are much more professional in their approach to bringing new equipment to the market. For example. I can buy the D4 and 200-400 today without any trouble and I am sure that as many togs will be kitting up for the Olympics with Nikon as are with Canon.

It would seem that Nikon are now the market leaders in pro spec camera equipment.

Have any members been tempted to switch brands either way even though they may have substantial investment in their equipment.

I an a Canon user and considering a change.
 
But when canon do launch the aforementioned gear, will that put canon ahead, and will everyone be expressing a desire to swap over to Canon? I'm not a pro (and a Nikon user) so it doesn't make a jot of difference to me either way, but if I was, it would probably take a step change in performance or features to make me consider changing from a system I was heavily invested into.
 
Again has Nikon dropped the ball,with the D800 ?,to me a Nikon user,the Canon 5DmkIII seem the better all round camera.

Leaving the D4 as its only soild pro spec all round body ?
 
I've seen some images from the D800 and was very impressed. The only downside the guy who owned it said was that his computer was struggling to handle the file sizes.
 
Nikon dont have a good tilt shift etc...

Both systems have pros and cons, it's easy to ignore the pros and cons of either.

I nearly switched to Nikon but in the end I didn't feel comfortable with their system, and didn't fancy the new memory cards when other companies are not supporting them yet.

After the diii release everyone is wanting to jump on each canon product as another cock up, I'm sure with things like the dx canon are more worried about the long term issues of bringing out a mis performing piece of kit instead of making people wait a bit.
 
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I can accept Canon wanting to put out a tried and tested product. I never even contemplated buying a mk III. I stuck with my Mk IIN until the mk IV came and bought that.

But when they announced the 200-400 my first thought was I'll trade my 500 for one. And 18 months later where is it. Why announce it if you cannot bring it to the market in a reasonable time frame.
 
the majority of sales for canon is no doubt prosumer cameras and lenses. canon will have a 200-400 with an intgrates 1.4x tele which nikon won't, canon has an 800mm nikon does not then there is the 17mm TSE lens.

in terms of lenses there is nothing that would specifically attract me to either company. the delay in the 200-400 and 1Dx is not going to do canon any harm, the vast majority of people are not going to suddenly drop ship to go with nikon.

Gaz J said:
Without wishing to start a "Nikon is better that Canon" argument do you think that Canon have missed a trick with the seemingly endless delays in bringing high end products such as the 1DX and the 200-400 zoom lens to the market.

The lens has been in development since early 2011 and probably a lot longer than that and dealers have been taking pre orders for the camera since the start of the year and yet still no sign of them.

I am sure that the olympics is taking priority on stocks but to me it seems that Nikon are much more professional in their approach to bringing new equipment to the market. For example. I can buy the D4 and 200-400 today without any trouble and I am sure that as many togs will be kitting up for the Olympics with Nikon as are with Canon.

It would seem that Nikon are now the market leaders in pro spec camera equipment.

Have any members been tempted to switch brands either way even though they may have substantial investment in their equipment.

I an a Canon user and considering a change.
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Gaz J said:
Without wishing to start a "Nikon is better that Canon" argument do you think that Canon have missed a trick with the seemingly endless delays in bringing high end products such as the 1DX and the 200-400 zoom lens to the market.

The lens has been in development since early 2011 and probably a lot longer than that and dealers have been taking pre orders for the camera since the start of the year and yet still no sign of them.

I am sure that the olympics is taking priority on stocks but to me it seems that Nikon are much more professional in their approach to bringing new equipment to the market. For example. I can buy the D4 and 200-400 today without any trouble and I am sure that as many togs will be kitting up for the Olympics with Nikon as are with Canon.

Perhaps they have taken the view that there is less money about just now so it is not the best time for a high end product launch.

It would seem that Nikon are now the market leaders in pro spec camera equipment.

Have any members been tempted to switch brands either way even though they may have substantial investment in their equipment.

I an a Canon user and considering a change.
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Perhaps they have taken the view that there is less money about just now so it is not the best time to launch a high end product.
 
Sorry - seem to have got in a tangle and split up my last two posts.
 
Yep, probably a shifting of priorities. How many people are waiting to buy the 1DX versus how many people are waiting to buy the 650D and what are the potential profits from each? Canon are running a business after all...
 
I'm not suggesting that the majority of people are going to jump ship. A TSE lens has no Interest for me. Everyone will look at what each manufacturer provides to cater for their own interest.

It's not going to do canon any harm because the majority of people will wait for them to arrive but for me it shows canon in a poor light that they cannot make good on their announcements within a reasonable time frame.

I, like many others, have a significant investment in my gear. It's a hobby for me like most people. I think canon have possibly the best range of pro/semi pro cameras but not necessarily the best pro cameras.
 
It is a bit of a cockup, they used to announce a camera and it'd be on the shelves within a month - someone in marketing has obviously made a conscious decision to do this, I hope for their sake it pays off.
 
I might be getting a little old in the tooth now (photographically speaking) but I'm inclined to believe that 95% of the bickering between camps of photographers is largely irrelevant.

Over 25 years of SLR usage, and having used Practika, Canon and Bronica with film, and Canon, Nikon and Hasselblad with digital capture I'm now of the mind that with very very few exceptions the camera is truly becoming a tool again (as it was pre-digital) and the photographer (as both shooter and business person) is back to being the key differentiator compared to the name on the kit.

When shooting Canon around 2004-7 I happily ribbed Nikon owners about the 1.5x crop only sensor, the base 200 ISO, the lack of IS/VR on the big glass, tilt-shift and super-fast lenses. In my ignorance I didn't know that PC (TSE in Canon speak) lenses *were* available as was a 50mm f1.2 albeit manual. With it's latest line up of FX sensors, PC-E lenses (24, 45 and 85), and f1.4 primes as well as base 100 ISO on many models those arguments are at best stretched. I'm also now a Nikon user.

Canon really only dropped the ball with the 1D MKIII. Delayed releases are frustrating, but not uncommon in any hi-tech industry - and cameras & lenses are increasingly more and more complex. But a camera that simply does not focus, and fails to get fixed over a period of more than 8 months was a monumental balls up. I and thousands of others left Canon and moved to Nikon. Switching was a pain but not painful, 3 weeks from start to finish with a significant amount of kit - I didn't take the Nikon buy-back offer, preferring to make more by selling privately, and so I just had to juggle the money coming in, with the lack of kit to work with until replacements could be funded. I didn't miss one job by timing it and ensuring I always had a working body/lens combination if not 2 (despite that sometimes being one of each).

I emerged a Nikon shooter slightly leaner on lenses but otherwise cash neutral.

Would I move back - defintely no, would I move now if I was still with Canon and was awaiting a 1Dx and 200-400mm - certainly not. Most likely these delays are based on the experience of the 1D MKIII and the knowledge that sending out a pro body that doesn't work to the 2012 Olympics, or a lens that is faulty would probably be the beginning of the end for pro-users.

Canon have always been a marketing led company and so pitching a capability and expecting manufacturing to deliver on it is high risk for timescales. Nikon's engineering led approach, combined with a much better set of manufacturing capability than in the 90' and early 2000's (tsunami and flood excepting) means that it is the polar opposite. What that does mean is that it quite often takes longer for innovative new kit to be put to the market.

Fact is the pros at the Olympics will still be able to shoot highly saleable images on their 1D IVs and big white primes. Had the 1D IV been on the roadmap when Canon CPS failed to to guarantee a fix for me in November 2008 I'd have stayed with them.

And so for 95% of people they'll never own, or need some of the subtle or niche differences in equipment or features between the brands much less so be able to take advantage of them if they had them in their hands. Far better to work on technique, or if you are a pro on gaining access, marketing and selling your work.
 
Its ok but if the 1Dx had been released and had an issue then it would have been canon blow it again just like the 1d3 and that would do them more harm that waiting a while before releaseing. The 200-400 I can see why it is highly desireable again if it had bene pushed out and been a dog it would have been a thing of why didn't you just do a normal lens and leave out the built in TC or what ever the cause fo rthe problem is.
 
I wonder how things balance out between lost sales from customers not upgrading as they know there is a definite new model in the pipeline vs customers not switching brands to a competitor to get the newest release from them for the same reason.

You could read into it that the early announcement implies the second being the biggest concern.

I guess only Canon insiders would know for sure.
 
I agree with what has been said but to keep on saying they have to get it right after the MKIII is a pretty feeble excuse really. it is Canon that are making the announcements about new equipment coming out and you would expect that someone somewhere in the company would ensure that the product was already close to production standard prior to going to press.

I have been thinking about a change for a while now. Probably it won't happen due to the sheer hassle of selling my gear with the biggest stumbling block the selling of my two most recent purchases, a Mk IV and 500 IS.
 
I think manufacturers have gotten a little trigger happy with news releases, they tell us what's coming far to early really and it all seems to be about trying to stay ahead of the competition, they they find there are research and production delays, short comings or faults to iron out before the item goes into full production and ends up on the shop shelves.
 
Phil V said:
It is a bit of a cockup, they used to announce a camera and it'd be on the shelves within a month - someone in marketing has obviously made a conscious decision to do this, I hope for their sake it pays off.
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I have to agree with Phil on this, why not take a leaf out of Apples normal announcement policy

"Hey guys we have this new product, and you can buy it tomorrow"

Look how well this has worked for Canon with the EF 40 pancake, they are flying off the shelf, yes it's cheap (well in the USA it is) and that makes a difference, but the principle is there.

It kind of looks to me as if Canon are playing the cards of, Hey we have an idea for a new high end product and if enough of you pre order we may even think about making some"
 
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I wonder how things balance out between lost sales from customers not upgrading as they know there is a definite new model in the pipeline vs customers not switching brands to a competitor to get the newest release from them for the same reason.
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Undoubtedly. The timings of new releases, and the leaking of specs and launch dates has become a significant part of the competitive positioning between Canon and Nikon.

IIRC Nikon bluffed a launch date for the D4, which resulted in the 1Dx being announced to your very point - likely before Canon would have wanted - then with the specs out and the D4 announced it may well have contributed to the rumoured revisions to the 1Dx features and the delays.

I have been thinking about a change for a while now. Probably it won't happen due to the sheer hassle of selling my gear with the biggest stumbling block the selling of my two most recent purchases, a Mk IV and 500 IS.
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Honestly, providing you are prepared to look for market rate on them (i.e. just under what a Mifsuds might sell them for used) you'd have your MKIV and 500 snapped up in less than a week either on here or another forum. There are no shortage of people that would buy those items - they have a huge market.

The items that took longest for me 50mm f1.2L, 90mm TSE and a WFT-2 - all pretty specialist items. The normal zooms, primes, flash, teleconverters, and bodies went within a week.
 
acetone said:
It kind of looks to me as if Canon are playing the cards of, Hey we have an idea for a new high end product and if enough of you pre order we may even think about making some"
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Yes for something like the 60Da specialist astro-photography body, or the 7D SV designed pretty much for schools photography, but not for something like a flag-ship pro body or a long zoom like the 200-400 which is a direct response to the Nikon - cited by wildlife photographers as a real reason to switch in the past - but with the added twist of the in-built TC.
 
acetone said:
I have to agree with Phil on this, why not take a leaf out of Apples normal announcement policy

"Hey guys we have this new product, and you can buy it tomorrow"
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Exactly that thought had been going through my mind when reading this thread earlier.

Apple, however, are *incredibly* good at keeping products under wraps until the launch day, especially considering the volume of manufacturing they have to ramp up in advance to get stock ready for such product releases.

Canon are fair hands at it, to give them their due, but I don't know how well they could manage "available tomorrow".
 
The 1D MkIII was not a pig either. Again, another minor and isolated problem blown out of all proportion.

The MkIII was (and still is) an awesome camera.
 
Organic said:
The 1D MkIII was not a pig either. Again, another minor and isolated problem blown out of all proportion.

The MkIII was (and still is) an awesome camera.
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Paul,

You may have a good one and if you do then certainly there will be nothing wrong with it if it performs to specification. One of my well respected friends had four and swore by all of them. However, my two were shocking - and whilst I would never put images online (as they are all rejects from commissioned work) I have enough evidence to prove it. Believe me "minor" and "isolated" do not apply to the risk it put my business under.

Clearly others felt the same way, pro's don't switch gear for the sake of it, even if financially neutral and there was a mass exodus exclusively as a result of that model of body.

Two hardware recalls, and around 5-7 firmware upgrades to attempt to resolve a focussing issue are not the mark of a camera which was anything other than a blot on Canon's reputation.

My CPS contact eventually admitted that he couldn't commit that any further action on their part would achieve satisfactory focussing accuracy and reliability even after all of the public fixes, and two separate calibration adjustments (bodies to lenses) at Elstree. It was only because I had already traded my gear in for Nikon kit that CPS didn't take my two bodies back and switch them for new ones in a last ditch attempt to keep me on Canon.

There was a rumour, in December 2008/January 2009 that revised bodies (as in newer than the "Blue Dot" models) were being shipped at the time which were OK - maybe you have one of those.....


...but as I said major cock-ups aside, there is now little to choose between the two.
 
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iancandler said:
I think manufacturers have gotten a little trigger happy with news releases, they tell us what's coming far to early really and it all seems to be about trying to stay ahead of the competition, they they find there are research and production delays, short comings or faults to iron out before the item goes into full production and ends up on the shop shelves.
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Possibly that is done in an attempt to get a hook into customers. Show them the prospect of something in the pipeline in the hope that they will not be tempted into buying another product before it appears.
 
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