help me buy a pro spec mac

PS. If you want to see what your Core 2/core I is doing, download throttlestop (on a Windows machine only)... Just don't click things without knowing what you are doing ;)
 
arad85 said:
Over power is when the chip is drawing more power than its TDP (the die has on chip sensors for voltage and current AFAIK), too hot is when it's above a particular on chip temp. This varies by processor - see: http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-033342.htm
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so my 2760QM for example would throttle if it drew more than 45w and hit 100c?

presumably that shouldnt ever happen on a system with sufficient cooling and the cpu voltages set correctly?
 
neil_g said:
so my 2760QM for example would throttle if it drew more than 45w and hit 100c?

presumably that shouldnt ever happen on a system with sufficient cooling and the cpu voltages set correctly?
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Yup... that's about the size of it...
 
Apple laptops can regularly hit around 90-100c internal. My Mac Mini is sat at 50c doing not much at all, they're designed to take it though, never had a problem with the heat.
 
Digitalize said:
Apple laptops can regularly hit around 90-100c internal. My Mac Mini is sat at 50c doing not much at all, they're designed to take it though, never had a problem with the heat.
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thats what i mean, i used a mbp a while ago to play some diablo 3 while out on the road (i didnt have my m6600 at the time) and the damn thing nearly took the skin off my leg..
 
Digitalize said:
they're designed to take it though, never had a problem with the heat.
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They are using the same Intel chips PCs use and are subject to the same laws of physics whether in an Apple box or not ;)

If the chip really is that hot, it will be clock throttling to reduce power consumption.
 
arad85 said:
They are using the same Intel chips PCs use and are subject to the same laws of physics whether in an Apple box or not ;)

If the chip really is that hot, it will be clock throttling to reduce power consumption.
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Yes, but I've usually found they seem to be more resistant to it, deal with the heat a lot more
 
Digitalize said:
Yes, but I've usually found they seem to be more resistant to it, deal with the heat a lot more
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I'm not sure what you are referring to here when you say "they" and "it". Do you mean:

  • that Apple designs get hotter than an equivalent PC running the same code and still work (which means Apple have a worse thermal performance and will lead to chip throttling earlier)
  • that Apple products work beyond the temperature range that PCs operate (this is where the laws of physics come in ;))
  • that Apple products conduct the heat away better and keep the chips cooler (which would be great if it didn't dump it into your leg)

I think you mean the first of these....
 
I'd say he meant the third of those 3 scenarios, Andy.
 
That's it in my experience - my MBP gets a tad warm (never use it on your lap whilst wearing shorts :) whilst my Dell still gets warm but the plastic body doesn't dissipate it as well as the ally chassis of the MBP (I guess this'll be the same for other Windows based laptops that are more metal than plastic too?)
 
arad85 said:
I'm not sure what you are referring to here when you say "they" and "it". Do you mean:


[*]that Apple designs get hotter than an equivalent PC running the same code and still work (which means Apple have a worse thermal performance and will lead to chip throttling earlier)
[*]that Apple products work beyond the temperature range that PCs operate (this is where the laws of physics come in ;))
[*]that Apple products conduct the heat away better and keep the chips cooler (which would be great if it didn't dump it into your leg)


I think you mean the first of these....
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3rd tbh.

Also, not all the chips are the same, MBA used to be different not sure if it is anymore, but that is picking hairs.
 
Buck said:
That's it in my experience - my MBP gets a tad warm (never use it on your lap whilst wearing shorts :) whilst my Dell still gets warm but the plastic body doesn't dissipate it as well as the ally chassis of the MBP (I guess this'll be the same for other Windows based laptops that are more metal than plastic too?)
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I'd say my dell runs cooler than the equivalent MacBook Pro (i7, intel and nvidia gpu).

My opinion is the MacBook is appalling at expelling heat.

Digitalize said:
3rd tbh.

Also, not all the chips are the same, MBA used to be different not sure if it is anymore, but that is picking hairs.
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The airs have always been core 2 duo, i5 or i7. Or do you mean the was a mac specific intel chip?
 
Given that metal conducts heat far better than plastic, the plastic/windows based laptops will immediately be running hotter than any MacBook because the heat can't discharge as effectively into the casing. This would also, logically, mean you feel the heat more on a MacBook because that heat is being drawn away from the chip into the casing and dissipating faster from a larger surface than out of the puny vents of the laptop which are barely effective at cooling the system...

But maybe that's just women's logic...? ;) :)
 
neil_g said:
thats what i mean, i used a mbp a while ago to play some diablo 3 while out on the road (i didnt have my m6600 at the time) and the damn thing nearly took the skin off my leg..
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It's a useful feature. You can keep your coffee warm, and you could even fry an egg if you are too busy gaming to go to the kitchen. See this is all practical. But please don't fry yourself :D

Now try this with a windows laptop. Like everything else it won't work :nono:





:LOL:
 
StephyB said:
Given that metal conducts heat far better than plastic, the plastic/windows based laptops will immediately be running hotter than any MacBook because the heat can't discharge as effectively into the casing. This would also, logically, mean you feel the heat more on a MacBook because that heat is being drawn away from the chip into the casing and dissipating faster from a larger surface than out of the puny vents of the laptop which are barely effective at cooling the system...

But maybe that's just women's logic...? ;) :)
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If anything the mbp retains heat acting like a saucepan to its contents. Mostly due to the lack of "ugly" vents (they're all in the same place too.. Mmm recycled hot air..). One reason why the fans sound like a turboprop whenever you start taxing the machine.

If apple meant for any serious help (if at all, do apple even say the case helps cooling?) from the case too cool the CPU they'd have installed heat pipe bridges to the outer case or better airflow around the unit (maybe some nice pretty fins ala heat sink :D ).

At least most pc laptop have separate "ugly" intake and exhaust vents.

I think we've digressed a fair bit from the op now, sorry op we got bored waiting for a decision :p

daugirdas said:
It's a useful feature. You can keep your coffee warm, and you could even fry an egg if you are too busy gaming to go to the kitchen. See this is all practical. But please don't fry yourself :D

Now try this with a windows laptop. Like everything else it won't work :nono:

:LOL:
Click to expand...

Of course, why buy one of those USB mug warmers, use a MacBook and have a fried brekky too! :D
 
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StephyB said:
Given that metal conducts heat far better than plastic, the plastic/windows based laptops will immediately be running hotter than any MacBook because the heat can't discharge as effectively into the casing.
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Not necessarily... ;)

Designing for heat dissipation is all about differences between thermal boundaries and temperature gradients across them. I've never seen inside a MBP/A but a slab of metal isn't necessarily an efficient way of dumping heat out of the processor and keeping it out over time (it's why all heatsinks have some form of finning to increase the surface area vs volume). Whilst a plastic laptop may appear to be worse as it does not have a large metal case to dump heat into, it may actually be more efficient at getting heat away due to better internals and a larger fan that comes on earlier.

Fundamentally, unless you know the design parameters, you can't say whether one cooling solution is more efficient than another....

As to custom vs standard, certainly Wiki suggests other than the first gen, standard CPUs are used in MBA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air
 
Unless you're a fluid dynamics engineer, your synopsis above is poorly reasoned.
I'd love to see a thermal image of a few laptops to see the temps being recorded when their fans are in full chat mode - but then all that'll show is how each one differs in their approach to moving warm air around (and out).
Since none have spontaneously combusted or turned into liquid, then the conclusion must be that each solution works sufficiently well to prevent thermal runaway.
 
PJ S said:
Unless you're a fluid dynamics engineer, your synopsis above is poorly reasoned.
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Was that aimed at me or Neil?

PJ S said:
Since none have spontaneously combusted or turned into liquid, then the conclusion must be that each solution works sufficiently well to prevent thermal runaway.
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Yes. But don't forget the fact that if you do get close to thermal maxima, the chip is designed to throttle to cool itself down. Unless you actively monitor for that happening, you may not appreciate that it actually is happening.
 
arad85 said:
Was that aimed at me or Neil?
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probably my sweeping statement about the stupidly poor combined inlet/exhaust vents (that are impeded by the screen hing incidentally) :D

oh and google has quite a few reports of mb idling around 40-50c and loading to over 100c so throttling will probably be occurring :)
 
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Just to show I'm not completely biased ;)

Here: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?1gnwmozzy0w is an article that shows throttling on a Dell 6500 (P8400 processor) where Dell (I assume) have got it completely wrong. The point is, as users, we'd only know this was happening when the computer became sluggish....
 
arad85 said:
Just to show I'm not completely biased ;)

Here: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?1gnwmozzy0w is an article that shows throttling on a Dell 6500 (P8400 processor) where Dell (I assume) have got it completely wrong. The point is, as users, we'd only know this was happening when the computer became sluggish....
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Is that an e6500? (Link won't work on iPhone).

For the record I'm still recommending the MacBook Pro route..
 
Got the link working. Interesting, we've got several e6500, I used to run one before my m6600.

I don't recall it throttling, but then it would never have been run at high load for extended periods. I do remember it being a very warm laptop and the fans ramping up quickly though. I always preferred my d830 (before the m6600 of course).
 
Yeah.. Interesting link. Basically, it throttled under conditions you wouldn't expect it to and then stayed there when you would expect it to come back out....
 
The only reason I suggest that is due to my 27" iMac. I've never had an issue with it overheating and thats including when I had a friend playing borderlands 2 for 6+ hours on it. Meanwhile my partners windows pc, which is a custom build, overheats frequently, to the point where we have the air conditioner pointing down onto it at the intake to keep it cooler.

Edit: I clearly have no working knowledge of it at all, it just seemed logical to me.
 
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StephyB said:
The only reason I suggest that is due to my 27" iMac. I've never had an issue with it overheating and thats including when I had a friend playing borderlands 2 for 6+ hours on it. Meanwhile my partners windows pc, which is a custom build, overheats frequently, to the point where we have the air conditioner pointing down onto it at the intake to keep it cooler.

Edit: I clearly have no working knowledge of it at all, it just seemed logical to me.
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To be fair, that's the difference between probably millions of dollars of research in to thermodynamics, and someone building their own PC, with insufficient cooling. My old build barely rose about 60c even when on full load, although it sounded like it was preparing for take off!
 
;) it was a professional custom build, not him doing it himself, fwiw :)
 
StephyB said:
;) it was a professional custom build, not him doing it himself, fwiw :)
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Define overheating though, so that the fans ramp up, it throttles back or does a thermal shutdown? Doesn't sound very professional to me if its the latter two. My custom can run at 100% CPU load for hours and levels out at ~77c. Would probably run cooler if I didn't have a smaller heatsink.
 
neil_g said:
My custom can run at 100% CPU load for hours and levels out at ~77c. Would probably run cooler if I didn't have a smaller heatsink.
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Yup. There is NO reason for a PC to shut down unless there is something wrong with it (loose heatsink) or the thermal design is poor.

My i7 overclocked @ 4.3 will run happily all day at 77deg. I have a lower power (about 75% the performance of my overclocked i7-2600K) Ivy-bridge setup that is completely passive (no fans in the box at all) that maxes out at just over 40deg C. It does have a massive heatsink on it though! See: http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=449072 for photos of the heatsink. And see amp34's post on page 3 for a very nice mini-PC that is totally passive too.

My server (AMD Athlon II based) uses the same massive heatsink and only has 2 low speed fans keeping the 8 disks cool - that maxes out at 78deg C (ran that one flat out for 3 days to check stability!!).

Keeping things cool and doing it quietly can be quite expensive though....
 
The fans ramp right up, noisy as hell!!!
 
StephyB said:
The fans ramp right up, noisy as hell!!!
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Under spec'd heatsink and poorly designed case airflow then...
I'll give you the fact Apple get that part mostly right :)
 
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