How do you deal with Teenage Idiots

Huujuu said:
What stops people from behaving in an antisocial way is empathy which is another learned behavoir.
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Can you explain what you mean by empathy & how this stops anti-social behaviour?

Huujuu said:
Choice without an understanding of empathy is rather limited hence my points about bonding and parents putting children first, ahead of Eastenders or big brother or the news or work.
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Sorry, but I really don't understand this. Are you talking about the choices made to be anti-social & that they have no empathy with peiople who just want to liove their own peaceful lives, or are you referring to the rest of us having no empathy with teenagers & therefore what's that got to do with choices? I'm confused.

How many generations is it going to take to solve the problem your way (presumably top down) and what do you do in the meantime for those of us who have to suffer this behaviour tomorrow & next weekend, working from the bottom up? (if you do)
 
Cathus said:
I'm asking if anti-social behaviour by teenagers & young adults & related crime is overall worse now than it was, say, 30 years ago. When I say worse, I mean is it more common?
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Cathus,

To answer you question with more 'light' than 'heat' I would point you to the following website which shows statistical information on ' youth crime'

It can be found here

I enclose one reflection from the reaserch....

The inside information on youth crime
How much youth crime is there?

* It has been shown that the number of crimes committed by young people hasn’t risen in the past five years, and is decreasing over time. “Crime” itself is something that is difficult to measure, but over all it seems that youth crime is going down.
* Still, three-quarters of the public questioned in a survey said that they believed the number of young offenders had risen.
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Cathus said:
Can you explain what you mean by empathy & how this stops anti-social behaviour?



Sorry, but I really don't understand this. Are you talking about the choices made to be anti-social & that they have no empathy with peiople who just want to liove their own peaceful lives, or are you referring to the rest of us having no empathy with teenagers & therefore what's that got to do with choices? I'm confused.

How many generations is it going to take to solve the problem your way (presumably top down) and what do you do in the meantime for those of us who have to suffer this behaviour tomorrow & next weekend, working from the bottom up? (if you do)
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Are you asking for a definition of empathy? I'm presuming you are a parent as you've said, so empathy is how you 'feel' that you don't want them to suffer and how you think well in advance before you choose any action that effects them. This is not the dictionary definition, you can look that one up. Empathy is also the feeling that you are part of a community and involves putting yourself in someone elses position before you act, you feel for them.

I'm referring to teaching empathy to children and of course that involves having empathy for them, but mainly teaching it, discussing it, acting it. When we've taught empathy to children then they have a wider choice of how to act based on their understanding of others feelings and not just because we've defined right and wrong. It's an understanding thing. Knowledge and understanding are 2 seperate entities.

Yes it's going to take generations to solve, we are part of an evolving society and acting purely for your own reasons in the 'now' is not a solution. It just makes us, personally, feel better and deflects attention from the much bigger picture. Obviously we still need to act now to protect ourown liberties but this shouldnt be where the buck stops and is akin to tablets for depression, it doesnt fix the problem.
 
Cathus, sorry i re-read your post and took the punctuation into it, thats what i get for speed reading:bonk:

the truth is the youth in the OP is lacking plenty of things in his life, 2 of the major things IMO are respect and fear, respect for his elders and fear of repremand for his actions.

i don't particularly care about statistic's as they can be fiddled to say what ever the people who make them want them to say. there has always been gobby *****s on the streets the only problem now is the PC brigade have made it impossible for anyone to do anything about it as they will be the ones facing the law so the gobby one can carry on intimidating people where before i'm sure s/he would have had his/her come-upance at somepoint. :bat:

i have two young boys and i'll be making sure that they can stand up for themselves (i'm an Aikido instructor and my wife is a black belt in Tae Kwon Do) but i will also be installing the differance between right and wrong behaviour, this will mostly come from their training in the arts but also from lessons taugh outside of the dojo.

Alot of people have mentioned sending the youths on millitary service, i dont think it would work, i have seen far too many neds going in with a bad attitude and coming out with a worse one because A:they can't hack the structure of millitary life, and B: they have been trained how to fight. as uncle Ben (spiderman) once said, with 'great power comes great responsibility' and the truth is half the neds who come out think they can take on the world cos they have 8 weeks basic training or whatever, which inturn makes their mates think they can take on the world.
 
Huujuu,

no, I wasn't asking for a definition of the word, I was really meaning, in what practical way would empathising with for instance, the person who prompted this whole thread, deter them from being anti social/violent?

I think we agree that it will indeed take generations to solve, & I empathise with your overall approach, but you still really haven't answered my question about what practical steps would you take now which you have personal control over? (unless it was handing out buscuits & balloons - was that you?)

Personally, I believe that when my child misbehaves they should face consequences. Sometimes this is a 'please don't do that' sometimes it's a 'go to your room or a short term ban from something they enjoy. It may even be a smack (although I must say that having brought up 3 children, I have never smacked them any of them once, but I have been prepared to have that sanction in my arsenal)

I firmly believe that because people have not been prepared to show this kind of person that there are consequences to their behaviour, that is why such behaviour has been free to proliferate. I would suggest that the same consequences I use with my kids are available to me with problems on the street. I choose to use them, most others do not & prefer to ignore it. That's their choice, but I don't think they should complain if they find the problem getting worse, or at least not getting better.
Having said all that, there are some people who just won't learn or empathise with my rights for a peaceful life no matter what consequences you show them. It's all very well saying it's the government's fault for bombing Iraq, but that's not gonna help me sleep tomorrow night.
 
Holden Caulfield,

a) most of the behaviour I'm discussing is not measured so satistics really don't help. The 3 incidents I spoke of last weekend were examples of antisocial behaviour, they will never be measured (as indeed, if we are led to believe what the British Crime Survey tells us) most petty crime is unreported.

and
b) I'm not talking about whether they have improved over the last 5 years, that's too short a time for any meaningful measure, I'm talking about the last 30-40 years.

I guess you're saying things haven't gotten worse, although you still don't appear to have answered my question (just pointed me to a Home Office website - not that the HO have any reason to make their stats show things in a better light than they really are, eh?)
 
I'm referring to teaching empathy to children and of course that involves having empathy for them, but mainly teaching it, discussing it, acting it. When we've taught empathy to children then they have a wider choice of how to act based on their understanding of others feelings and not just because we've defined right and wrong. It's an understanding thing. Knowledge and understanding are 2 seperate entities.
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Bravo :clap:
 
ChrisMClark said:
Threaten to kill someone, especially when on the rnages, in this job and you'll be looking at some 'attitude adjustment' at the MCTC Colchester, AKA The Glass House. And that place isn't pleasant. Would make most of the HMPs look like Butlins.
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What Chris said! That hooded scroat shambling forward with 'attitude to impress his mates' would be a blubbering wreck within 30 minutes of arrival at MCTC Colchester.:LOL:
 
Cathus said:
Huujuu,

no, I wasn't asking for a definition of the word, I was really meaning, in what practical way would empathising with for instance, the person who prompted this whole thread, deter them from being anti social/violent?

I think we agree that it will indeed take generations to solve, & I empathise with your overall approach, but you still really haven't answered my question about what practical steps would you take now which you have personal control over? (unless it was handing out buscuits & balloons - was that you?)

Personally, I believe that when my child misbehaves they should face consequences. Sometimes this is a 'please don't do that' sometimes it's a 'go to your room or a short term ban from something they enjoy. It may even be a smack (although I must say that having brought up 3 children, I have never smacked them any of them once, but I have been prepared to have that sanction in my arsenal)

I firmly believe that because people have not been prepared to show this kind of person that there are consequences to their behaviour, that is why such behaviour has been free to proliferate. I would suggest that the same consequences I use with my kids are available to me with problems on the street. I choose to use them, most others do not & prefer to ignore it. That's their choice, but I don't think they should complain if they find the problem getting worse, or at least not getting better.
Having said all that, there are some people who just won't learn or empathise with my rights for a peaceful life no matter what consequences you show them. It's all very well saying it's the government's fault for bombing Iraq, but that's not gonna help me sleep tomorrow night.
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Practical steps would be to not use fear to instil discipline, to loose the TV and instead experience real life that exists outside of a box, to learn respect by interaction not theory, again there is a difference between acting respectfully because you have to and because you want to. Not bombing Iraqi families wouldnt be a bad thing and i'm all for dispatching with the PC approach and, for example, smacking a child as soon as they smack you, not for punishment but saying 'lets play your game, smack me again' when they are very young, chances are you wont have to do it again when they are older. I think it's about a shared practicality and a 2 way learning process not the 'do as i say not do as i do' approach.

I really dont like to say this but for you to sleep at night we need to tackle antisocial behavoir head on but make sure, when we lock youths up etc, that we make it clear that it is not punishment, it is protecting peoples liberty. If we try to control people we teach control, if we try to protect each other we teach protection. Whatever methods we use to teach our children, fear, punishment, understanding, empathy etc, they will learn to use. I know the phrase is unpopular, but the next generation will always be a product of the current one, that is every experience we have given them and every intent we have expressed to them.
 
Huujuu said:
Practical steps would be to not use fear to instil discipline, to loose the TV and instead experience real life that exists outside of a box, to learn respect by interaction not theory, again there is a difference between acting respectfully because you have to and because you want to. Not bombing Iraqi families wouldnt be a bad thing and i'm all for dispatching with the PC approach and, for example, smacking a child as soon as they smack you, not for punishment but saying 'lets play your game, smack me again' when they are very young, chances are you wont have to do it again when they are older. I think it's about a shared practicality and a 2 way learning process not the 'do as i say not do as i do' approach.
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I'm not sure you've answered my question, you seem to be going back to the long-term bringing up children correctly approach. I'm not saying that's not a valid approach, of course it is.
When I say practical solutions, I mean here & now on my street this evening, when the lads have already grown into angry young men who don't give a rats arse for my rights to a peaceful life.

There seems to be a dichotomy between the morals of smacking a young child to get them to learn and not smacking a teenager to get them to learn, or is it too late to use violence on a teenager but OK on a two year old?
 
chris250 said:
i don't particularly care about statistic's as they can be fiddled to say what ever the people who make them want them to say.

i have two young boys and i'll be making sure that they can stand up for themselves (i'm an Aikido instructor and my wife is a black belt in Tae Kwon Do) .
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1, If you don't particularly care about statistic's statistics how do you make any rational desions in life?

2, You would be better off teaching you kids empathy and interpersonal skills rather than martial arts, as there is always someone ,faster stonger , carrying a bigger stic, I have never seen a martial arts technique that can dodge a bullet ( unless you watched the Matrix.:p

3, If you go out looking for a fight you will inevitably find one:bat:
 
Huujuu said:
make it clear that it is not punishment, it is protecting peoples liberty.
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Since the abolishment of capital and corporal punichment crime has risen - the loss of punichment in favour of rehabilitation is a failure but no psychologist will say this as it proves everything they've harped on about for years is wrong. By any chance are you a psyhologist or psychology student?


Huujuu said:
I know the phrase is unpopular, but the next generation will always be a product of the current one, that is every experience we have given them and every intent we have expressed to them.
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And the product of the past couple of generations is a hands off approach to parenting and hands on the job and career. This teaches kids that money is more important than family and that family is of low importance socially - the next logical step is if family doesn't matter much why should the kids do what the parents say
 
Holden Caulfield said:
1, If you don't particularly care about statistic's statistics how do you make any rational desions in life?

2, You would be better off teaching you kids empathy and interpersonal skills rather than martial arts, as there is always someone ,faster stonger , carrying a bigger stic, I have never seen a martial arts technique that can dodge a bullet ( unless you watched the Matrix.:p

3, If you go out looking for a fight you will inevitably find one:bat:
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1. Stats are not the be al and end all - type 1 and type 2 errors!

2. Part of any martial art is knowing when to use it and when to walk away

3. Sometimes fights find you, regardless of how you act - local hoodlums at Uni regularly pick fights with any member of the rugby team as they think it gives some kind of prestige regardless if they have any problem with said player or not
 
Cathus said:
I'm not sure you've answered my question, you seem to be going back to the long-term bringing up children correctly approach. I'm not saying that's not a valid approach, of course it is.
When I say practical solutions, I mean here & now on my street this evening, when the lads have already grown into angry young men who don't give a rats arse for my rights to a peaceful life.

There seems to be a dichotomy between the morals of smacking a young child to get them to learn and not smacking a teenager to get them to learn, or is it too late to use violence on a teenager but OK on a two year old?
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I thought i did answer your question, to deal with what is happening now and to make you feel better we loose the PC approach and remove the offenders whilst explaining we are doing it to protect the freedom of others and not as punishment. We dont hit them or use violence or fear unless it is to defend ourselves against violence. (That is a lot different from nipping a 2 year old to teach empathy.)

But I dont think this is at all practical, we dont have the man power or the laws in place to do it straight away, we dont have anywhere to send offenders that would be suitable or the abilities to inforce a curfew, our society has already gone too far in the wrong direction. It's like being in a plane crash and trying to solve what is wrong as it's crashing, it wont save you. We can learn from what mistakes have already been made and change our ways for the future. Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth, accept reality and do your best for the next generation. No it's not fun, it's not fair, this is Britain!
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
Since the abolishment of capital and corporal punichment crime has risen - the loss of punichment in favour of rehabilitation is a failure but no psychologist will say this as it proves everything they've harped on about for years is wrong. By any chance are you a psyhologist or psychology student?




And the product of the past couple of generations is a hands off approach to parenting and hands on the job and career. This teaches kids that money is more important than family and that family is of low importance socially - the next logical step is if family doesn't matter much why should the kids do what the parents say
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A lot of things have changed since the abolishment of capital punishment, more housing/industrial estates, less countryside, more aggression towards other countries, more emphasis on making money and using TV as a substitute for real life and the rest of my list......... I would suggest these have a greater effect on behavour .Crime in America has risen and they havnt abolished it.

I totally agree with your last statement, i think it's just my inability to express myself in writing that hasnt made that clear.

No, i'm not a psyhologist or psychology student, i guess these people also have to conform to what is expected from the powers that be (government policy, drug manufacturers) to be successful
 
I was starting to be glad you added the second sentence as I read the first because clearly you can't remove them for what is in essence not a crime.

But go on to say that your 'practical' solution, isn't, er, practical, so no solution at all then.

We'll have to agree to differ then, because whilst you're prepared to put up with it (I have no idea how much you have to put up with, to be fair) until the goverment stop bombing innocent children & parents finally see the light (no time soon on either), I'm not.

So I'll continue to challenge bad behaviour in the hope that the message will get round & more others will join in & do their part, if these people aren't prepared to change their ways with others, at least they'll know what they're in for if they try it again with me.
 
Cathus said:
That's not media hype that's how one street has developed over 20 years, and we live in a smallish town, not a city centre.
If your town or street has not got worse in the last 20 years then that is fantastic news for you, I'm really pleased that it's not everywhere, but I honestly believe, through experience, that this is not the general case.
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I get the impression trouble happens more in these small towns than city centres. City centres mainly get trouble from people out on a saturday night ****ed up. Small towns offer nothing for it's kids to do and so they resort to kicking in other kids, older people or just trashing stuff. That said, I'm sure whatever you gave the kids to do, they would either not be bothered or would trash it, as they did to a skatepark in my town.
 
Huujuu said:
A lot of things have changed since the abolishment of capital punishment.....more aggression towards other countries
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I'm not sure there is been more aggression towards other countries since 1965 than before it, this country has a long & distinguished history of aggression towards other nations, British Empire?

I definately agree regarding comments about bringing up families & the importance placed on money.
 
Cathus said:
I was starting to be glad you added the second sentence as I read the first because clearly you can't remove them for what is in essence not a crime.

But go on to say that your 'practical' solution, isn't, er, practical, so no solution at all then.

We'll have to agree to differ then, because whilst you're prepared to put up with it (I have no idea how much you have to put up with, to be fair) until the goverment stop bombing innocent children & parents finally see the light (no time soon on either), I'm not.

So I'll continue to challenge bad behaviour in the hope that the message will get round & more others will join in & do their part, if these people aren't prepared to change their ways with others, at least they'll know what they're in for if they try it again with me.
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Yup, society needs to change to offer a practical solution and in the mean time people are going act, like yourself, on an individual situation basis and i cant argue with your personal choices in the matter. I actually think it would work if everybody got together and kicked the **** out of every antisocial hooligan on the streets. It works in communist china and north korea. ;)
 
Holden,
1. statistics don't have to be involved in making rational descissions, if you follow statistic's then you are more likely to die in your home than on a plane crash do you avoid your house ? statistics can be bent round to say what ever people want them to say by omitting values and adding in extra ones from other sources, they are not totally useless but they should not be relied on to make every descision in life.

2. if you read beyond that i was going to teach my kind martial arts then you would have read
i will also be installing the differance between right and wrong behaviour
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you may not have seen a martial art technique that can dodge a bullet but in training you'll be taught how to avoid/defuse situations which could invlove a gun being drawn in the first place.

3. i beg to differ, since the incident i described earlier i have never been in a fight, i feel that this is partially due to my training and have avoided situations but then i have walk through the roughest of areas during arguements and fights and have still never been approached in a violent manner, this is the same for one of my higher graded student who is at uni now and has never been approached or threatened and he works in a very violent area of glasgow, it comes down to how you project yourself, any sign of weakness a ned will jump on you like a lion on an injured gazelle, not to mention being trained to deal with an attack is benificial to anyone of any age or fitness level.

thank you Rick for replying first
 
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This is going to be my last post on this particular subject, I find it fascinating how much hang em and flog em comment has been made and then we wonder why some of our young people act aggressively.

As for capital punishment, if it worked then it would only need to be carried out once, then there would be no more murders.

To answer Cathus’s question directly I feel a lot safer now than I did 30 years ago, until I read and listen to the media.

As for psychologists and those who teach psychology, some of them actually know what they are talking about ;)
 
i remember a few months back when me and my mate where walking and this chav walks past us and says "yeah you better walk off" so my mate turned round and said "i thought chavs have better things to do like smash cars etc." and he replied "im not a chav im a gangsta:wacky:" and we just walked off in hysterics.:LOL:
 
mastertrinity said:
i remember a few months back when me and my mate where walking and this chav walks past us and says "yeah you better walk off" so my mate turned round and said "i thought chavs have better things to do like smash cars etc." and he replied "im not a chav im a gangsta:wacky:" and we just walked off in hysterics.:LOL:
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hilarious :LOL::|:LOL:
 
Have you heard the sound of a taser when you turn one on? "Don't tase me bro!!!"
 
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