How Do You Meter?

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Ian
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I keep looking at lightmeters, then at their price, then get confused by what they do. What I want is a cheap thing I can point at a location and get exposure settings for that location.

So for example in a high dynamic range scene, I want to be able to meter the highlights and the shadows so I can make a good guess as to what exposure I need, or a rough starting point for bracketing. I may want to meter off a tree, or the grass, or my palm...

Historically with film, I've used the internal meter or just gone on Auto, and with my current AE-1 this isn't a problem. I'm more talking about when you don't have a meter available in your camera. Before getting into medium format, I've used a DSLR or CSC to meter the scene, then copied from that.

However now, I'm using a (99p to remove ads) Lightmeter app as I'm not taking digital kit out with me any more. For the majority of my photography (normal dynamic range stuff) it's done a grand job. It's convenient, easy to use, and works. However recently, in difficult lighting, it's let me down, under-exposing my images by at least 2 stops.

I'd love to use a lightmeter. But at the prices they're at, I'm wondering if it's not just cheaper to buy a digital camera that's small & cheap to get settings (and also to preview a scene at a given focal length before unpacking the MF kit).

So for those of you that don't have the luxury of an internal meter - what do you do?
 
I use a sekonic L308s, I think that's the model.

In high DR scenes I'll take a reading from the darkest area and the lightest area and think about zones, but always lean towards the shadows.

I also go easy on agitation when deving. I'm sure that helps control highlights.

I'd be interested to see what more experienced people think about that.
Seems to work out ok.
 
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I not infrequently use the Sunny 16 rule and guess the exposure. This is usually when I have forgotten to pick up the light meter when leaving the house (it sits on a small table beside the sofa to be available regardless of which camera I am using).

When I do have the light meter with me (and not forgotten the camera which is also not unknown) I take a number of readings at the start of the session in different directions and decide on an average camera setting. I will review that every half hour or so or if the light visibly changes.

My main meter is an early 1960s Zeiss Ikon Ikophot selenium meter (so no batteries) which cost me £4.99 plus postage. I also have a Soviet Leningrad meter which is a copy of an Ikophot and came free with an old camera.
 
Sounds as if ideally you need a meter with a spot facility - it'll have a built-in vf for aiming purposes. Then you can really pick out the extremes of shadow and highlight at a distance. An incident meter has its uses but is limited if the subject's a way off and might be in different light to where you are. But a 'normal' reflected light meter (which might take in a 35deg or more angle) coupled with experience will do fine much of the time.

For a manual camera, I use a Lunasix 3, with a battery adapter - and like many meters it has a sliding dome for incident. But I use it in reflected mode mainly.
 
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I use black and white film, not colour slide, so I don't really have to worry much about the contrast for my subjects. So I just take a reading from the palm of my hand (making sure that it's in the same light as the subject) and then open up one stop. This is at bottom an incident light method.
 
(and also to preview a scene at a given focal length before unpacking the MF kit).

You can do this with a phone app. I use an iphone and found at least two viewfinder apps in the store. One cost about £29 and the other cost £2.99, so naturally I tried out the £2.99 app which is called "viewfinder".

I find it very helpful. You can set up the various film formats you use, and the focal lengths that you use for each format. You can also preview the effect with different film stocks. Hence you can view a scene in mono, for example, if you might want to shoot it in mono.

The only limitation that may affect some users is that the widest native focal length my iPhone 7 plus can achieve is 28mm equivalent; in large format that's the widest lens I use anyway but I do have a 24mm-equivalent lens for the RZ67. If you use wide-angle accessory lenses for the iPhone then they may or may not work with the app - check the instructions if this applies to you.
 
I use a sekonic L308s,

Same here WHEN I us e one!

In high DR scenes I'll take a reading from the darkest area and the lightest area and think about zones, but always lean towards the shadows.
IF I use the meter then this is a very similar process for me although I generally leave the highlights to sort themselves out and concentrate on the shadows

I just take a reading from the palm of my hand (making sure that it's in the same light as the subject) and then open up one stop.

This I find is almost idiot proof ( hence it suits me perfectly:D).and infact almost always the result matches the incident reading on the L308

I not infrequently use the Sunny 16 rule and guess the exposure.

By far this has to be the norm for me ….Perhaps I have an ability that doesn't come natural to other people although tbh it maybe comes about purely from experience, but usually I can judge the required exposure without a need for a meter.
 
In high DR scenes I'll take a reading from the darkest area and the lightest area
Might be a daft question, but how do you do this with an incident meter?
So for example in a high dynamic range scene, I want to be able to meter the highlights and the shadows so I can make a good guess as to what exposure I need, or a rough starting point for bracketing. I may want to meter off a tree, or the grass, or my palm...
I am sat here looking at my Sekonic L-328VF which is a 5 degree spotmeter attachment for the L328 meter, although discontinued it may be worth having a trawl on a certain auction site.
 
Might be a daft question, but how do you do this with an incident meter?

It's a very good question. I have asked it a number of times but never got an answer.

I particularly want to know what to meter in dappled light.

Those people who insist that incident metering is fool proof and easy seem to go quiet whenever I ask.

I might not have directly asked in F&C though, TBF.
 
Might be a daft question, but how do you do this with an incident meter?
.
you can't. With an incident meter you measure the light falling on the subject, so light areas and dark areas are irrelevant. Simon must be using a reflective meter - I am fairly sure he is using a spot meter.
 
Yes, I'm using a reflective meter.

I don't use a spot meter, except with my Nikon F80.

I would use one if I had one or wasn't too tight to buy one.
 
This is the bit my brain just won't compute.

If I take a reading in a bit of shade, in a forest say, it will be different to a reading I take in a sunlit spot.

So, what do I do?
If you are photographing a scene with shadows and sunlight, you would not walk around taking incident readings in each area. Incident metering is not really for landscapes. I would take a general reflective reading (as I am also too mean to buy a spot meter!) and bias my camera settings towards the sunlit areas (by guesswork).
 
If I take a reading in a bit of shade, in a forest say, it will be different to a reading I take in a sunlit spot.
If it is an incident reading you need to be in the same light that is falling on your subject.... A reflected light reading will also vary according to surroundings...
 
This is the bit my brain just won't compute.

If I take a reading in a bit of shade, in a forest say, it will be different to a reading I take in a sunlit spot.

So, what do I do?

Well as you know the camera meter equates everything to Kodak grey (a standard for all meters well at least in the film era) and only see variations in B\W, so if you are lucky and there is something in the picture that is equivalent of Kodak grey e.g green foliage, grey rocks etc then the exposure taken of that must be correct..same for the bright areas. And it is up to you whether you believe in "take care of the darker areas and let the highlights take care of themselves" Or what more important in your shot the bright areas or darker OR just add the two together and halve to get a midway point.
 
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If you are photographing a scene with shadows and sunlight, you would not walk around taking incident readings in each area. Incident metering is not really for landscapes. I would take a general reflective reading (as I am also too mean to buy a spot meter!) and bias my camera settings towards the sunlit areas (by guesswork).

Yes that's the conclusion I came to a while ago.

But I still see people on this forum saying use incident for everything, it's easy and always right, but then clam up when I ask that question.

I have therefore reached another conclusion...;)
 
If it is an incident reading you need to be in the same light that is falling on your subject..

Is that the same light as the light falling on the dark areas or the same light as the light falling on the light areas?
 
But I still see people on this forum saying use incident for everything, it's easy and always right, but then clam up when I ask that question.

I have therefore reached another conclusion...;)
People get told that a certain technique (not necessarily metering) is best and then decide that it must be used all the time and those of us who know better must be fools.

Incident metering is ideal for close-up work. I cannot imagine a serious portraitist using anything else. If your subject is miles away, incident metering is not actually possible (although I have been told on this forum previously that I clearly do not understand and incident metering of a scene miles away is what all photographers do).
 
Is that the same light as the light falling on the dark areas or the same light as the light falling on the light areas?
:) Any meter reading is only going to be a guide to be interpreted by you... incident is the overall light falling on your subject and is averaged out...
 
Then I shall stick with reflective.
They both have their places as does spot, however if you are comfortable with one method then that is fine, once you are familiar you know how to interpret that reading...
 
So this afternoon I was on the embankment opposite the keep of Kenilworth Castle with the Chroma, quite cloudy bu some brightness in between. I have a L308S, which is fairly new to me, but I can just about get it to work. I took a reflective reading pointing straight at the Castle, and got f/22 at whatever shutter speed I was on. I thought I should check, pointed the meter about 45 degrees downwards and got f/11, then 45 degrees upwards and got f/45. I stuck with f/22... is that the sort of thing?

ETA I do find the L308 confusing, and almost wish I'd kept my L208. The latter is much simpler, but impossible to see in lower light, and only goes down to LV 4 or so...
 
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So for me - in terms of metering, I tend to keep aperture constant. So for example, f22.

I'll meter for deep shadows and get something like 1/8sec. I'll then meter for highlights and get 1/125sec. Let's say it's a forest scene (much of my work is at the moment). I don't really give a crap about the sky because 9 times out of 10 in this country, it's got nothing interesting going on. It could be bright grey or dark grey - it doesn't matter. What I do want is a little bit of detail in the deepest shadows, but I don't want the shadows exposing too much, so 1/8sec is too slow. 1/30 sec is halfway between the two which might be a normal choice, but I want to "protect" my shadows a bit more so I might decide on 1/15sec. In reality, I'd probably take 2 exposures. 1/30sec and 1/15sec to be safe, but on the 6x17 I've got 4 shots so bracketing is a luxury I can't afford and I need to get it right first time.

In high DR scenes I'll take a reading from the darkest area and the lightest area and think about zones, but always lean towards the shadows.
This is generally how I approach things. Sekonic is your goto choice for determining it by the sound of it. However - with slide film (limited to knowledge of Velvia 50 here) I've found the dynamic range of the film to be so narrow that I tend to go right down the middle, or even consider protecting the highlights - considering shadows as "black" and suffering the loss of detail when thinking about composition.

I use an iphone and found at least two viewfinder apps in the store. One cost about £29
Sadly, I've got it and it's bad. I can't believe I paid that much for an app. It simply doesn't deliver the angle that my camera does. I'd leave bad feedback, but I'm just embarrassed to admit I bought it. Needing a WA adapter for your phone was the icing I didn't need to know. Don't judge me!!

would take a general reflective reading (as I am also too mean to buy a spot meter!) and bias my camera settings towards the sunlit areas (by guesswork).
Does this mean that a reflective meter does what (I would imagine) a spotmeter does without the ability to pick out certain parts of your subject? Still confused about the difference between incident and reflective meters.

I have a L308S, which is fairly new to me, but I can just about get it to work. I took a reflective reading pointing straight at the Castle, and got f/22 at whatever shutter speed I was on. I thought I should check, pointed the meter about 45 degrees downwards and got f/11, then 45 degrees upwards and got f/45. I stuck with f/22... is that the sort of thing?
I set an exposure to expose what I want to be clear in my image. In your case, if you want the castle to be "nicely exposed" I'd say yes - f22. Whatever is "down" is going to be 2 stops under exposed and whatever is "up" is going to be 2 stops over. If this is acceptable to you from a creative standpoint, then it's the right exposure. Things like slide film will make the over/under areas look much brighter/darker than (for example) more forgiving films like HP5.

once you are familiar you know how to interpret that reading...
Phil - can you explain (in simple terms) the difference between reflected and incident light in terms of how a meter sees? (Or point me to a resource that does)

Many thanks for all your replies. Much appreciated.
 
So this afternoon I was on the embankment opposite the keep of Kenilworth Castle with the Chroma, quite cloudy bu some brightness in between. I have a L308S, which is fairly new to me, but I can just about get it to work. I took a reflective reading pointing straight at the Castle, and got f/22 at whatever shutter speed I was on. I thought I should check, pointed the meter about 45 degrees downwards and got f/11, then 45 degrees upwards and got f/45. I stuck with f/22... is that the sort of thing?

ETA I do find the L308 confusing, and almost wish I'd kept my L208. The latter is much simpler, but impossible to see in lower light, and only goes down to LV 4 or so...

That doesn't seem right Chris for f22 for a grey castle (near Kodak grey) as most of the time of the year, in sunny conditions, get similar exposure readings (of average scenes)... 1/250 sec at f5.6\ff8 with 200 ISO film. I think sunny 16 guys would make it f16
 
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Metering using a handheld meter:

This is a very important subject that needs to be understood!

If at all possible you should always meter using INCIDENT readings - it is far more accurate!

Different subjects reflect light in different ways - if you had a glass bottle that was shiny sat next to a glass bottle that had a matt finish a reflective light reading from each would give you a different exposure where as the incident reading will give you the same exposure. Incident readings give the amount of light 'falling' on the subject which will be correct. The dark areas will be recorded as dark and the highlight areas will be recorded as highlights. If the range of shadows and highlights fall outside the dynamic range of the recording media you are using due to the light falling on that subject then you have to adjust your exposure to record the details you want recording be it in the shadows or in the highlights. (For film always bias exposure for shadows as these 'block up' quicker than the highlights and vice versa for digital where highlights blow out first.)

To Take an Incident reading most meters have a lumisphere over the light cell. the Lumisphere is to replicate a 3D object and the sphere should be pointed back towards the camera for an average reading of the scene or towards the lightsource to measure the intensity of the light. Usually you will only point the Lumisphere in the direction of the light during studio work to measure the flash intensity between different flash heads to get the desired lighting ratio.

The trouble with INCIDENT readings is you need to be able to walk up to your subject and measure the light falling on it!

If your subject is distant you have a few options:

Asses the lighting falling on your subject and if it is similar to where you are standing take an INCIDENT meter reading from where you are and use these settings.

As above you can also take a REFLECTIVE light reading from a mid grey subject where you are standing and use this.

If the light falling on your distant subject is completely different than where you are you need to point the REFLECTIVE meter at the subject and take the reading (This is pretty much what your camera does). Again you can adjust exposure to prioritise highlights or shadows if the dynamic range of the scene is outside the dynamic range of the recording media.
N.B. - On the Sekonic L308 series you need to slide the Lumisphere out of the way to expose the light metering cell to take a reflective reading

Spot meter readings are used to measure REFLECTED light from various points within the scene and are an aid to working out the Dynamic Range of the scene you are photographing. Usually you would take several readings from both Highlight and shadow areas then average the readings for your settings. They are really useful if the Dynamic Range of the scene is to great and you can pin point the settings you need depending on what you want recording in the scene.

Hope this helps.
 
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The problem I see with incident light metering is this. And I'm going to assume that the subject brightness range exceeds that which the film can record, as otherwise there's little problem whatever the method.

Incident light meters are effectively pegging the exposure to correctly expose an assumed highlight. If the tones in the scene are virtually all dark ones, you're going to underexpose and lose detail in the darkest shadows (remember the assumption that we are working outside the SBR that the film can record, so if we're cutting the exposure to protect the non-existant highlight, we must be underexposing the lower values).

BTW - expose for the highlights with reversal film and digital, for the shadows with negative film. One size fits all doesn't work with film :D
 
if you had a glass bottle that was shiny sat next to a glass bottle that had a matt finish a reflective light reading from each would give you a different exposure where as the incident reading will give you the same exposure

..or if you haven't got an incident reading exposure meter stick a sheet of grey, green, light red or deep blue on matt paper (all near Kodak grey) against the bottles and take a reflective reading ;)
 
The problem I see with incident light metering is this.

And at this point I should remind people that despite this caveat I've been effectively using incident metering for half a century. There are reasons why the method has fewer drawbacks if you take the scan and inkjet printing rather than wet printing routes, but realistically in the UK we aren't going to run into problems with black and white negative film except once in a blue moon.
 
I use black and white film, not colour slide, so I don't really have to worry much about the contrast for my subjects. So I just take a reading from the palm of my hand (making sure that it's in the same light as the subject) and then open up one stop. This is at bottom an incident light method.
And I've used this method successfully with colour reversal film too, when the ambiently-lit scene was unusual, eg lots of snow. It's pretty accurate! But it wouldn't necessarily work for a distant subject (as in landscape), if the light wasn't the same overall. You look around you to gauge the circumstance.
Is that the same light as the light falling on the dark areas or the same light as the light falling on the light areas?
It's falling on both - that's the point - it's neutral, it's just the light.

.
 
If at all possible you should always meter using INCIDENT readings - it is far more accurate!

Different subjects reflect light in different ways - if you had a glass bottle that was shiny sat next to a glass bottle that had a matt finish a reflective light reading from each would give you a different exposure where as the incident reading will give you the same exposure.

I think this is where I'm missing something obvious because I can't see where an incident reading is useful. Surely I always want to know what the exposure setting is for my subject. If it's a dark matt bottle it'll be setting a, and if a shiny bottle, setting b. I don't see how the same reading for two differently lit subjects helps. I could end up over exposing one bottle and under exposing the other. Neither of those is good. I want my subject exposed correctly - thus I want to point something at my subject and know what the settings should be for that... subject. I can then make a decision about what to under/over expose based on how important my subject is.

I'm still also not clear on the value of a lightmeter. At £200 for a Sekonic 308, I can get a second hand Fuji X-E1 or X-Pro1 (super cameras) for less money and be able to mess around with the exposure to get something I'm happy with by seeing the results... Are lightmeters over-priced? After all, I can get a whole camera for less? Or maybe I'm just trying to talk myself into an X100 here. Why buy a lightmeter when you can buy a camera that has a perfectly good meter built in? Is it simply the same reason that one shoots film rather than digital? Perhaps the crux of this is that it just sticks in my craw that a lightmeter costs more than a digital camera which does the job (arguably) just as well and gives you a photo to boot!
 
Still confused about the difference between incident and reflective meters.

Incident readings are the same as reflective readings on a Kodak grey card (providing the card is in the same position as the subject i.e. vertical, horizontal or whatever.....no meter? then sunny 16 is a roughly an incident reading.
 
I think this is where I'm missing something obvious because I can't see where an incident reading is useful. Surely I always want to know what the exposure setting is for my subject. If it's a dark matt bottle it'll be setting a, and if a shiny bottle, setting b. I don't see how the same reading for two differently lit subjects helps. I could end up over exposing one bottle and under exposing the other. Neither of those is good. I want my subject exposed correctly - thus I want to point something at my subject and know what the settings should be for that... subject. I can then make a decision about what to under/over expose based on how important my subject is.

The point is that the meter will give a reading that will cause the subject to be recorded as a mid grey. Point it at the proverbial black cat in a coal cellar and the photograph will show a grey cat. Make that a white cat against snow, and you get a grey cat again. The incident light method removes the variable of subject reflectance, and means that the black cat will come out black and the white cat will be white.
 
The problem I see with incident light metering is this. And I'm going to assume that the subject brightness range exceeds that which the film can record, as otherwise there's little problem whatever the method.

Incident light meters are effectively pegging the exposure to correctly expose an assumed highlight.
Why are you picking on the highlight, Stephen? The meter is supposedly neutral in its reading of the falling light - except that you will have set it to the film box iso, or your own pet variant of that (geared to the shadows for neg?).

... expose for the highlights with reversal film and digital, for the shadows with negative film. One size fits all doesn't work with film
I'll endorse that!
 
Incident readings are the same as reflective readings on a Kodak grey card (providing the card is in the same position as the subject i.e. vertical, horizontal or whatever.....no meter? then sunny 16 is a roughly an incident reading.

And, it seems, tilted at 45 degrees to the light source as the calibration of meters isn't the same as the reflectance of the Kodak card... A matter of 12% comparped to 17% (from memory).
 
Why are you picking on the highlight, Stephen? The meter is supposedly neutral in its reading of the falling light - except that you will have set it to the film box iso, or your own pet variant of that (geared to the shadows for neg?).

Because that's surely what an incident light meter is doing - it has to as it can't judge how dark the deepest shadow is, so it assumes that the highlights are to be protected - which is why it's recommended for slide film. It's producing a recommendation for exposure based on how much light is falling on the subject, with no regard to whether the subject is light or dark.
 
And, it seems, tilted at 45 degrees to the light source as the calibration of meters isn't the same as the reflectance of the Kodak card... A matter of 12% comparped to 17% (from memory).

erm surely what I said about positioning of the grey card covers the movement of the sun i.e. low or high.
 
The incident light method removes the variable of subject reflectance, and means that the black cat will come out black and the white cat will be white
I agree with that, but ...
it can't judge how dark the deepest shadow is
Nor the brightest highlight, Stephen. It can't assume anything - it's inanimate. It just gives an equable reading. It assumes nothing but the falling light, and gives an average. There's no bias towards highlight or shadow, unless you factor that in with how you set the ISO of your chosen film on the meter.
 
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