How does one get such crisp landscape photographs?

doublem1

doublem1

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Matt
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I will heading to europe soon, around switzerland and the alps. I am going to buy a new lens before I go, a Tamron 17-50mm non VC most probably. I would love to know the secrets of how people get such clarity on their photos. (I can link to some examples, but there are some already in other threads within this section). I mean, sharp foregrounds as well as the mountains in the distance.

Is it purely down to a small aperture? F16 for example? And would the Tamron lens be good for landscapes? I will be taking my tripod with me :).
 
Tripod and small aperture like f16 and focusing in the right area to get the maximum depth of field.
 
What do you mean by 'crisp'? Do you mean sharp?

The best part of most lenses is around f/8 to f/11. If you shoot at f/16 or higher you will get more DOF but you may start to lose quality, especially on a cheaper lens. A good solution for landscapes is to take more than one shot and stack or blend them. This obviously works best where things aren't moving too much in the scene. Set up your camera on a tripod with the camera set to f/8 and take two shots - one manually focussed for the foreground and the second for the background, then blend them in Photoshop. I do the same thing for exposures - one shot for the bright sky and another for the darker land area. You could even combine the two and do a shot for higher exposure and manually focussed for foreground, and a shot 2-3 stops less for the sky and manually focussed for the background.

But you can't beat a good quality sharp lens, especially a prime rather than a zoom. My Canon 24-105L is very good, but a shot with my much cheaper Sigma prime macro lens (even for landscape) is usually better.
 
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all of these things combined will help... plus.. learn to sharpen in post processing. Loads of tutorials available (y)

By the same token.. sharpening can destroy an image if overdone (y)
 
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It also depends on air quality. If it is "crispness" you're looking for you need to recognise when it is there in reality. It is impossible to turn a hazy, misty landscape into a crisp one with even the best lenses. Sow's ear / silk purse scenario.....

It's all part of the skill of being a landscape photographer.
 
wippers said:
I'm interested in this thread and just wondered what method you would use to blend the images? Would you put each image as a different layer in PS, mask them and then remove the unfocussed parts with the brush?

Sorry to hijack the thread. ;)

Gareth
Click to expand...

There are two ways you can blend. I do a lot of stacking using CS5 and helicon. Mine are still life (see my website) and I haven't tried this method with landscape shots, but I see no reason why it shouldn't work. All Helicon (or Photoshop) does is select the areas that are most in focus across a range of shots (need at least two) and merges them together. It works better with still life because you are much closer to the subject and so the differences in focus are that much greater. But it should also work for landscapes - I really ought to try it.

The other method if you have Photoshop with layers (I think basic Photoshop doesn't have layers?) is to load both images (one focussed for front and the other for back), and copy and paste the lighter or sharper one on top of the other as a layer. You will need to align them (it's a menu option) as the tripod may have moved slightly between shots. Then apply a layer mask to the top layer and click the mask box to make it active. Then using the gradient tool draw a vertical downward line on the shot where you want the transition to occur. They will be blended together vertically. I wouldn't use the brush method as you said, as it may end up a bit messy, and all you want to do is get a gradual change vertically from top to bottom. The gradient tool does it for you much quicker.
 
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A good quality lens is key, Whilst most lenses have a 'sweet spot' unless your going to put your images on a bill board or produce a very large image. Then the quality is going to suffice at F/16 - real world images, not put under a microscope or loupe.

The ISO is also a significant. In general terms, the smaller the ISO the better the quality. It's all dependant on the time of day and lighting but try and get away with the smallest ISO you can.

White Balance - won't effect your focus but manually setting the WB will enhance the fast changing temperatures of the sun rising / setting and give your images a natural look. There are plenty of tutorials on this and videos out there.

When shooting landscapes I will, always use a tripod, I favour a wide angle lens and look to capture something with foreground interest. I will also use the mirror lock up to avoid vibration. Alternatively the self-timer will suffice and reduce camera shake on long exposures. I will try several exposures with small apertures; F/32, F22, F16, if I want front-to-back sharpness and a corresponding shutter speed.
 
The air should be very good to give you good visablity

iso 100
F16
-.3 exposure comp
IS off if on tripod
focus a third into shot
Mirror lockup
timer shutter
 
Thanks for all the great help guys. Very much appreciated. I will try out the stacking in PS, sounds like it will get my desire effect. Is the Tamron 17-50mm ok for landscapes?

dcash29 said:
The air should be very good to give you good visablity

iso 100
F16
-.3 exposure comp
IS off if on tripod
focus a third into shot
Mirror lockup
timer shutter
Click to expand...

Thanks, why will I need -0.3 exp comp? Also, what's mirror lockup, I have a D90.

Thanks again for the help. Such a great forum this :D.
 
doublem1 said:
Thanks for all the great help guys. Very much appreciated. I will try out the stacking in PS, sounds like it will get my desire effect. Is the Tamron 17-50mm ok for landscapes?



Thanks, why will I need -0.3 exp comp? Also, what's mirror lockup, I have a D90.

Thanks again for the help. Such a great forum this :D.
Click to expand...

Don't see why you would need -0.3 exposure comp??????

Mirror lockup though, very useful (although i dont need/have it on my SLT camera but thats a different story). The setting will be somewhere in your menu's in your camera, look in the manual to find where. Mirror lockup will basically mean the mirror doesn't slap back down with so much force (i think) which would then vibrate the tripod and leave you with a blurry photo.

I take lots of landscapes now and thats the main area of photography i focus on by far so my suggestions (at least for technical would be this)

ISO - Always lowest as possible, so generally 100. However if you have a better dynamic range at ISO 200 then in some ways that could be better, but tbh i would just stick with 100.

Shutter speed with tripod - as long as you want/need (without over exposing obv)

Shutter speed without tripod - generally 1/focal length. EG: say you were shooting at 50mm then a shutter speed of 1/50 would be fine. If you have really steady hands you can go lower and IS/VR lenses help as well.

Aperture (the key bit in someways) - F8 to F11 will be the best and sharpest area for any lens basically. F16 will allow a higher DOF so stuff in focus, but only use that if you can't get everything in focus at a smaller F number, like F11. Don't go below F8 though, unless you want to for a certain effect.

Manual Focusing - To do it properly you can work out the hyperfocal distance for focusing (plenty of mobile phone apps can work this out). But i don't bother, instead I generally focus like this, 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the photo. Make sure that point is really sharp and providing your aperture setting is giving enough DOF everything will be in focus and sharp.

Post Processing - This is where you can make your pictures appear even more crisp (providing you don't over do it!). In lightroom i find the 'clarity' slider can really make photos more crisp, it can be a brilliant tool. However also being good at sharpening will make a difference, like previsouly mentioned don't over sharpen.


Oh just forgot something, its easiest to shoot in Aperture priority mode, unless you want to specially set the shutter speed as well. I tend to use a mix of Aperture mode or Full Manual. In Aperture mode you can really concentrate on getting the other things working properly. Also make sure you use the matrix (or multi-segmented) metering system.

I think thats covers most things!
 
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pwynn-mackenzie said:
Manual Focusing - To do it properly you can work out the hyperfocal distance for focusing (plenty of mobile phone apps can work this out). But i don't bother, instead I generally focus like this, 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the photo. Make sure that point is really sharp and providing your aperture setting is giving enough DOF everything will be in focus and sharp.
Click to expand...


As well as the android app I quoted above, there's also an online version here DOF calculator
 
Why are people telling him to shoot at f/16?
That will soften images, NOT sharpen them.

f/11 as a maximum.
There's never a need to shoot any higher than this.
If you think I'm wrong, let's argue about it :D
 
pretty much as above...

I would also suggest advising on some graduated ND filters - both soft and hard, 1, 2, 3 stop.

That way you can compensate for the sky being brighter, and if you go for the square type ones you can move the grad point up and down with ease....

Tripod is a must.

Also you want some nice light - forget in the middle of a bright summers day (if we can remember what that is) ... generally the first hour after dawn / last hour before dusk will provide the best light for the day...
 
andy_fozzy said:
Why are people telling him to shoot at f/16?
That will soften images, NOT sharpen them.

f/11 as a maximum.
There's never a need to shoot any higher than this.
If you think I'm wrong, let's argue about it :D
Click to expand...

My brother's bigger than yours...:LOL:

Actually, I did say in post #3 that f/8-f/11 is best. And it is - especially on a cheaper camera lens.
 
rob marshall said:
My brother's bigger than yours...:LOL:

Actually, I did say in post #3 that f/8-f/11 is best. And it is - especially on a cheaper camera lens.
Click to expand...

:D

You did indeed.
But even after yours and Paul's excellent post, someone tells him to shoot @ f/16 :bonk:
 
andy_fozzy said:
Why are people telling him to shoot at f/16?
That will soften images, NOT sharpen them.

f/11 as a maximum.
There's never a need to shoot any higher than this.
If you think I'm wrong, let's argue about it :D
Click to expand...

Because it's good advice and almost de-rigour for landscape photography to start at F/16 (or a smaller aperture)

There is a critical difference between sharpness and Depth of Field. Any image can be sharp and in focus, if desired, at the chosen point of focus using any aperture.

However, F/16 has a greater depth of field then F/11. The smaller the aperture the greater the depth of field. Or to put it in simple terms the sharper the corner-to-corner image or the depth of focus.

If you photograph and focus on something in the foreground on F/11 then the background wont be as sharp as F/16 or F/22 which will start to sharpen the subject background. It is however, directly proportional to the distance between the CCD Image sensor and the subject.
 
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But surely difraction starts to creep in @ f/11 - making shots less sharper.....

And if we're talking landscapes here, then do you really need a greater DOF?
Hence why I said f/11 MAX.

IMO, if you need to stop light coming in, get some filters (other than the ones Lynton suggested).
 
andy_fozzy said:
But surely difraction starts to creep in @ f/11 - making shots less sharper.....
Click to expand...

Know your lens. It varies.

andy_fozzy said:
And if we're talking landscapes here, then do you really need a greater DOF?
Click to expand...

It's a creative choice - not a hard and fast rule - but generally with landscapes, yes, depth of field matters a lot.
 
Andy,

No, refracted light travels in straight lines (it's the law of physics). As the lens is stopped down all refracted light rays are narrowed through the chosen aperture hitting the CCD Image sensor. Its never defracted, In addition it's not to be confused with chromatic abrasion that can occur at some focal lengths.

Greatest Depth of field occurs when

A) F -number is high (smaller aperture)
B) Focal length is short
C) Subject distance
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Because it's good advice and almost de-rigour for landscape photography to start at F/16 (or a smaller aperture)

There is a critical difference between sharpness and Depth of Field. Any image can be sharp and in focus, if desired, at the chosen point of focus using any aperture.

However, F/16 has a greater depth of field then F/11. The smaller the aperture the greater the depth of field. Or to put it in simple terms the sharper the corner-to-corner image or the depth of focus.

If you photograph and focus on something in the foreground on F/11 then the background wont be as sharp as F/16 or F/22 which will start to sharpen the subject background. It is however, directly proportional to the distance between the CCD Image sensor and the subject.
Click to expand...

But surely if you have everything in focus at F11 then that is going to be better than F16 isn't. Other than creating star burst or wanting a slightly longer shutter speed without the benefit of ND filters shooting at F16 would just be pointless compared to F11 or F9 etc (this is pending everything is in focus at F11). Once something is sharp and in focus then it can't be more in focus...
 
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pwynn-mackenzie said:
But surely if you have everything in focus at F11 then that is going to be better than F16 isn't. Other than creating star burst or wanting a slightly longer shutter speed without the benefit of ND filters shooting at F16 would just be pointless compared to F11 or F9 etc (this is pending everything is in focus at F11). Once something is sharp and in focus then it can't be more in focus...
Click to expand...

It depends.....

Its all about the combination on A,B,C as above which is intrinsically linked. There are quite a few Depth of Field Calculators available as apps which can help. There isn't really a definitive answer as the focal length-to-subject (focus) distance is going to vary every time.

Dof is a three-fold formula which is not dissimilar to the Aperture, Speed, ISO relationship. When you know the rules and apply them then you can predict and control the output of your image.

If your camera has a Depth of Field preview button it can be very useful in deterring what your image will look like at the time of photographing.
 
I've been meaning to try this for some time. Took a shot of my garden at f/16 focussed about a third of the way in. Canon 5DM2 with 24-105mm at 40mm. Same standard sharpening applied to all shots.

f/16 single shot
f16.jpg


Then took two shots on the same framing, but at f/8. First focussed on foreground and second on the summer house at the rear. I then stacked them in CS5.

f/8 combined 2 shots
f8.jpg


The f/8 combo is sharper (just). here are the screen grabs for the top of the summerhouse roof

f/16 roof top
f16sg.jpg



f/8 combination shot of roof top
f8sg.jpg
 
Mmm interesting comparison shots. I've never tried this kind of stacking but I will now I think.
Very interesting thread this.

Andy
 
Andysnap said:
Mmm interesting comparison shots. I've never tried this kind of stacking but I will now I think.
Very interesting thread this.

Andy
Click to expand...

It's certainly worth experimenting with. And don't forget, when you are doing the shot for the upper background area, if the sky is very bright you can also stop down to prevent the clouds blowing out. And the foreground shot can be exposed for the foreground as well as focus. So, you will get the best exposure and focus for both parts of the shot merged into one.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Dof is a three-fold formula which is not dissimilar to the Aperture, Speed, ISO relationship. When you know the rules and apply them then you can predict and control the output of your image.
Click to expand...

I think it's time to step away from the DOF calculator and come back into the real world :p

as has been shown in the example posted above, find the diffraction limit of your lens and then focus stack.
I shoot a lot of macro, and shooting at f22 gives HORRIBLE results compared to shooting f5,6 and stacking.
I try to never shoot smaller than f8, I used to shoot landscapes at f22 and the results weren't pretty
 
Generally you can expect diffration softening effects start to appear at f/11 on a crop sensor, and f/16 on a full frame although it's not a hard and fast rule and the extra DOF you get might be more important than a tiny loss in sharpness. There are plenty of PP tricks to make the image appear crisper anyway.
 
Invaluable help everyone, seriously thanks so much for you help and tips. Think I will settle with F11 and see how that goes, then try some shots for stacking purposes.

pwynn-mackenzie said:
Don't see why you would need -0.3 exposure comp??????

Mirror lockup though, very useful (although i dont need/have it on my SLT camera but thats a different story). The setting will be somewhere in your menu's in your camera, look in the manual to find where. Mirror lockup will basically mean the mirror doesn't slap back down with so much force (i think) which would then vibrate the tripod and leave you with a blurry photo.

I take lots of landscapes now and thats the main area of photography i focus on by far so my suggestions (at least for technical would be this)

ISO - Always lowest as possible, so generally 100. However if you have a better dynamic range at ISO 200 then in some ways that could be better, but tbh i would just stick with 100.

Shutter speed with tripod - as long as you want/need (without over exposing obv)

Shutter speed without tripod - generally 1/focal length. EG: say you were shooting at 50mm then a shutter speed of 1/50 would be fine. If you have really steady hands you can go lower and IS/VR lenses help as well.

Aperture (the key bit in someways) - F8 to F11 will be the best and sharpest area for any lens basically. F16 will allow a higher DOF so stuff in focus, but only use that if you can't get everything in focus at a smaller F number, like F11. Don't go below F8 though, unless you want to for a certain effect.

Manual Focusing - To do it properly you can work out the hyperfocal distance for focusing (plenty of mobile phone apps can work this out). But i don't bother, instead I generally focus like this, 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the photo. Make sure that point is really sharp and providing your aperture setting is giving enough DOF everything will be in focus and sharp.

Post Processing - This is where you can make your pictures appear even more crisp (providing you don't over do it!). In lightroom i find the 'clarity' slider can really make photos more crisp, it can be a brilliant tool. However also being good at sharpening will make a difference, like previsouly mentioned don't over sharpen.


Oh just forgot something, its easiest to shoot in Aperture priority mode, unless you want to specially set the shutter speed as well. I tend to use a mix of Aperture mode or Full Manual. In Aperture mode you can really concentrate on getting the other things working properly. Also make sure you use the matrix (or multi-segmented) metering system.

I think thats covers most things!
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for your input, I will be shooting on a tripod. Also, I will spend a fair amount of time post processing to try and get the best out of them. I usually shoot aperture priority unless I'm trying to get a certain effect, never really tried manual focusing yet.
 
Don't pixel peep too much. Zooming in to 200% is not how you would be viewing images on your wall. There are many many top photographers shooting at f16 and smaller and creating beautiful images with a variety of cameras and have been doing so for years!

Also one other thing is Photoshop and Sharpening! yes you should be able to get a sharp image out of the camera but a little sharpening will give the impression of an even sharper image.

The information here is all great but sometimes the detail is too much. Focus stacking is certainly interesting though....

Play around and you will see the effects yourself.
 
mrjames said:
I think it's time to step away from the DOF calculator and come back into the real world :p

as has been shown in the example posted above, find the diffraction limit of your lens and then focus stack.
I shoot a lot of macro, and shooting at f22 gives HORRIBLE results compared to shooting f5,6 and stacking.
I try to never shoot smaller than f8, I used to shoot landscapes at f22 and the results weren't pretty
Click to expand...

It used to be really easy on old manual focus lenses.

Set infinity on the focus ring to the chosen aperture on the right hand side.

On the left hand side, by your chosen aperture is the closest point within the focus range.

No need to focus on anything.

Not sure of it can still be done with modern AF lenses
 
hyperfocal focusing is your chum

http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

I printed off all the charts for my lens focal lengths, laminated them and keep them in my bag. Very useful although you get used to the common settings in the end and dont use the charts much.

The one downside is that modern lenses have crap distance markings on them so people tend to stick to the focus 1/3 up the frame system and go from there.
 
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pwynn-mackenzie said:
Don't see why you would need -0.3 exposure comp??????

Mirror lockup though, very useful (although i dont need/have it on my SLT camera but thats a different story). The setting will be somewhere in your menu's in your camera, look in the manual to find where. Mirror lockup will basically mean the mirror doesn't slap back down with so much force (i think) which would then vibrate the tripod and leave you with a blurry photo.

I take lots of landscapes now and thats the main area of photography i focus on by far so my suggestions (at least for technical would be this)

ISO - Always lowest as possible, so generally 100. However if you have a better dynamic range at ISO 200 then in some ways that could be better, but tbh i would just stick with 100.

Shutter speed with tripod - as long as you want/need (without over exposing obv)

Shutter speed without tripod - generally 1/focal length. EG: say you were shooting at 50mm then a shutter speed of 1/50 would be fine. If you have really steady hands you can go lower and IS/VR lenses help as well.

Aperture (the key bit in someways) - F8 to F11 will be the best and sharpest area for any lens basically. F16 will allow a higher DOF so stuff in focus, but only use that if you can't get everything in focus at a smaller F number, like F11. Don't go below F8 though, unless you want to for a certain effect.

Manual Focusing - To do it properly you can work out the hyperfocal distance for focusing (plenty of mobile phone apps can work this out). But i don't bother, instead I generally focus like this, 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the photo. Make sure that point is really sharp and providing your aperture setting is giving enough DOF everything will be in focus and sharp.

Post Processing - This is where you can make your pictures appear even more crisp (providing you don't over do it!). In lightroom i find the 'clarity' slider can really make photos more crisp, it can be a brilliant tool. However also being good at sharpening will make a difference, like previsouly mentioned don't over sharpen.


Oh just forgot something, its easiest to shoot in Aperture priority mode, unless you want to specially set the shutter speed as well. I tend to use a mix of Aperture mode or Full Manual. In Aperture mode you can really concentrate on getting the other things working properly. Also make sure you use the matrix (or multi-segmented) metering system.

I think thats covers most things!
Click to expand...


^^ All good advice and v.similar to my approach.

For clarity, when focusing it is beter to focus 1/3 of the way in to the photo i.e. distance rather than height i.e. 1/3 of the way up.

It's a small point but depending upon the lie of the land it can make a difference.

Another point to think of is re exposure. Take a reading for the 'land' and another for the sky and either go for a multiple exposure and blend in post-production or go half way between the two to average it all out.
 
If you are going to the Swiss Alps then how can you not get crisp images. The air is so clear and clean there and crisp.
Have a nice trip and post some images upon your return.
 
I would add a bit of caution when considering focus stacking in landscapes. it can be a hit and miss affair. Used in more controlled environments like macros and still life, I've seen some wonderful results. Landscapes less so, you have to get it spot on, and any variation (like a bit of wind moving your tripod ever so slightly ) can make things go wrong. Don't forget if you stack images (or blend) any faults are magnified. Consequently I've seen lots of poor landscapes because of stacking, notably very soft images, significant chromatic aberration, increased noise and unsightly halos, not as bad as HDR processing, but bad enough to significantly reduce the impact of a landscape image.

My advice (like others) is a good lens, a stable tripod, and set the aperture appropriate to cover the amount you want in focus.

More importantly, keep it simple, don't overcomplicate things, either in shooting or processing.

And if you have a good enough quality lens, I don't see any reason to not shoot at f16, most of my landscapes are shot between f16-f22, it works for me, if it doesn't work for yourself, fair enough, I don't think it's worth arguing about.
 
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