How to separate negatives stuck together

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Gina2022

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Gina
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Hello all,

My photos and negatives became water damaged after a leak. The photos are stuck together and stuck to the paper packet they came in.

The negatives are all stuck together too

The photos hold a lot of sentimental value as they are of family members, most of who passed on. The photos span ~50 years.

Is there some way I can get the negatives apart so they can be digitized & we can get reprints. If there's anyone here who offers that service professionally, please do send me your website & contact details. Thank you. Gina.

Mods: If this post is in the wrong forum, please let me know.
 
Hi, Gina and welcome to TP - sorry that it's because you have the problem.

I've reported this post and suggested it's moved (or duplicated) in the dedicated Film and Conventional section which is full of advice, nearly all good!

My suggestion would be to try soaking a less important selection of the negatives in plain water to see if that released them from each other and the paper - you never know your luck!
 
Soaking in lukewarm water should do the trick; I've had the same with negs stuck in those paper sleeves. I once had a few sheets of negs (those ringbinder ones that hold a full 36 frame set) get wet and then dry leaving the negs stuck. Just soaked the lot in in the bath. Don't be tempted to peel the dry paper off, it'll come off fine with just water. It won't hurt to add a bit of wetting agent, or even a tiny squirt of washing up liquid. You can try carefully cutting the edge of the sleeves too, to allow water to seep in that way.

Hopefully, that should work fine. And then buy some plastic sleeves for all the negs.
 
Nod said:
My suggestion would be to try soaking a less important selection of the negatives in plain water to see if that released them from each other and the paper - you never know your luck!
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Welcome to TP, and I'm sorry to hear of your problem I know how important old photographs and negatives are.

My advice is the same as above. Just be care of the temperature of the water, as the image is held in a gelatin emulsion that can come away or even be dissolved if the temperature is too high. How high it too high? If you can comfortably hold your hand in it, it's fine.

And the other post above is also spot on. Just don't try forcing anything, and let the soaking effect the separation.

There are several places that will digitise the negatives for you.
 
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I'm pretty sure negatives can be re-washed. I know I've used a drop of washing up liquid as a wetting agent too, so as Nod said, I'd initially try soaking them in a room temperature solution of water + a very small amount of washing up liquid to get the paper off the negs. If you've got thin curtain rails, you can use a clothes peg to peg them to the rails inside to dry.

As for scanning solutions - it depends entirely on your budget and how much you're prepared to do yourself as well as how many negs you're talking about.

You could get an app for your smartphone and take photos of the negs. Quality is pretty poor, but it's very cheap and time consuming.
Option 2, assuming they're all 35mm scans, you could buy a dedicated neg scanner - Amazon do some pretty cheap ones, and do the job yourself. Time consuming and requires a modicum of computer savvy to scan & store them.
Option 3 is something like https://www.filmscanuk.co.uk/ or https://analoguewonderland.co.uk/products/film-scanning or any kind of Google search for "Negative Scanning Service". Can't recommend any of them as I haven't tried them, but I'm sure someone else will chime in.
 
Harlequin565 said:
I'm pretty sure negatives can be re-washed. I know I've used a drop of washing up liquid as a wetting agent too, so as Nod said, I'd initially try soaking them in a room temperature solution of water + a very small amount of washing up liquid to get the paper off the negs. If you've got thin curtain rails, you can use a clothes peg to peg them to the rails inside to dry.
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There's no problem in rewashing negatives. There are processes that require rewashing afterwards - but Gina doesn't need to know that, only that rewashing is fine. The only hazard is that until it's dry, the film will be more susceptible to mechanical damage, and, dare I say it, dust settling on the emulsion and sticking to it. The ideal place to dry negatives, in the absence of a film drying cabinet which I've never owned, is in the bathroom on a line after running the taps (or taking a shower) so that the water vapour takes the dust out of the air.
 
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When drying the negs, it's a good idea to weight them, as they will naturally want to curl up if unweighted. Normally you'd use weighted film drying clips at the ends ,but with cut negs you don't have much for the clip to hold onto without damaging the emulsion. I used to use stiff wire and small nuts to weight down strips of 6 frames; thread the wire (larger straightened paperclips might work) through the holes a the edges (I'm assuming 35mm here), and put a couple of nuts on to weight it all down a bit. Enough to stop the film curling up, anyway.
 
Thank you for the welcome & for all your replies. I'm going to give this a go with one strip of negatives first. When doing a search on this topic the other day, Photo Flo was recommended. Is this a good wetting agent? Would you recommend anything else? Thanks again. Feeling a bit more hopeful now.
 
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Gina2022 said:
Thank you for the welcome & for all your replies. I'm going to give this a go with one strip of negatives first. When doing a search on this topic the other day, Photo Flo was recommended. Is this a good wetting agent? Would you recommend anything else? Thanks again. Feeling a bit more hopeful now.
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Wetting agent helps negatives to dry by dispersing the water. It's not dissimilar to washing up liquid, except without any colours or scents added. A very small amount of washing up liquid will probably do the same job and save you the cost of buying some wetting agent. Plus you probably have some in the house. Don't use a lot though - just a few drops, not a big squirt. :)
 
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I always found proper wetting agent preferable to washing up liquid. They are similar, but different. I believe washing up liquid contains salt, which is corrosive to the chemicals in the emulsion. WUL works at a pinch, but I’d use WA myself.
 
Photo Flo is a respected wetting agent. The reason for a wetting agent is that left to its own devices, water will gather into droplets, and, assuming that you haven't given a final rinse in distilled water (de ionised will work just as well for this purpose) the mineral residue in the water will be left behind on the film after it's dried. Wetting agent reduces the surface tension, which is what causes water to form "bubbles" on a surface rather than spreading out when the water volume is low.

Alternatives are to displace the water entirely with a soak in pure alcohol or a similar; Agfa used to market a product called Drysonal (I still have a bottle) to do this. In a pinch, you could use meths, but I'd stick (no pun intended) with water.

Suspending the film to dry by a corner lets the water run to a single corner, which helps. I'm assuming that your negatives are single ones as they used to come back from the chemist, rather than strips, so drying will be more labour intensive in terms of hanging them up.
 
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We've been considering only the negatives, but the photos can be separated in the same way. Photos are printed using water based solutions before being given a final water wash, so the paper isn't going to dissolve. If they are/were glazed prints (really shiny surface) then that may be removed leaving them as "unglazed glossy" but the image will remain. They may be stained from the paper packet though, although assuming black and white that can be easily fixed by copying.

If they are colour, some colour processes have a stabilizer as the final step rather than a wash, and the soaking my affect this, although not in the time scale that it will take to have them scanned. They could always have another pass through a stabilizing solution, at a guess. I'd have to have more information to be certain of any of this.
 
Assuming that negatives and prints are in separate clumps, it doesn't really matter. In your position, I might start with the prints on the assumption that if they come away OK, there is slightly less pressure on negative separation. Although I'd still recommend getting fresh (and possibly larger) prints made. Negatives hold a lot more detail than the prints made from them.
 
hi all,

Has anyone been able to get hold of Kodak Photo-Flo recently? It seems to have been out of stock for months. I'm still looking at attempting to clean these negatives (with the help of a photography teacher).

Are there any other wetting agents you'd recommend?

Many thanks
 
Ilford make a similar product.

If all else fails and the negs are important enough to you (and you don't mind being on telly!!!), it might be worth seeing if The Repair Shop would be interested.
 
Sangoma said:
I've used washing up liquid as a wetting agent since 1973, and never seen any evidence of any problem.
It needs only one small drop in a litre of water.

You could use the "eco" one which has none of the additives :)
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I've used both, never saw any difference. My negs still look fine.
 
Nod said:
Ilford make a similar product.

If all else fails and the negs are important enough to you (and you don't mind being on telly!!!), it might be worth seeing if The Repair Shop would be interested.
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Thanks Nod., I'm not sure I'd want to be on telly! :LOL:
 
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From memory wetting agent is just a mild detergent solution to break the surface tension of the water to prevent water droplets forming on the negatives. Washing up liquid will be fine. Temperature wise it was always around 68° f or 20°C for black and white. I cant remember the temp for colour but just to wash I cant see the above temps being a problem.
 
hi all,

I'm finally starting this process! [Life gets in the way sometimes! :)]

I now have ilfotol wetting agent, & a photography teacher helping me at my workplace.

My question is how long does it generally take for the negatives to separate? I'm wondering whether I do this on a Thursday and will I need to go back in on the Friday to check / hang them up to dry?

Are we talking hours / days? Does the water need to be changed so it doesn't go slimy, in which case I can't leave them over the weekend?

Do I need distilled water for the final rinse?
Should I handle the negs with special gloves when drying out?

Apologies for all the questions!! My first time doing this.

Many thanks in advance :ty:
 
I can't really say how long, as it would depend on how stuck they are. I'd personally expect the time to be measured in minutes, or at worst hours, and not days. It is possible to oversoak film, and have the emulsion part company from the base - in theory. I've never actually come across it in practice, or read of anyone who achieved it - but some people do lift the emulsion from the base as part of their unconventional practices, so it might be worth looking up how they do it to know what to avoid.

Distilled (or deionised) water would be best for the final rinse, just to reduce the chance of any deposits being left; but if you're using a wetting agent, it's less important.

Just holding the negs by the edges should be fine; if you wear gloves, you might leave deposits from them, plus you may find it more difficult to manipulate the negatives. The only real warning I'd issue is to hang them up to dry in a dust free environment, and preferable one without much footfall. If doing this at home, a bathroom is usually best, especially if you've just used steam to reduce dust in the atmosphere.
 
StephenM said:
It is possible to oversoak film, and have the emulsion part company from the base - in theory. I've never actually come across it in practice, or read of anyone who achieved it - but some people do lift the emulsion from the base as part of their unconventional practices, so it might be worth looking up how they do it to know what to avoid.
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This happened to me.

I soaked some neg strips in water for 45 minutes and when they eventually came apart the emulsion slipped off, literally slipped off. I didn't rub them or anything like that.

If the negs are that important I'd seek professional advice before attempting this.
 
Thanks
StephenM said:
I can't really say how long, as it would depend on how stuck they are. I'd personally expect the time to be measured in minutes, or at worst hours, and not days. It is possible to oversoak film, and have the emulsion part company from the base - in theory. I've never actually come across it in practice, or read of anyone who achieved it - but some people do lift the emulsion from the base as part of their unconventional practices, so it might be worth looking up how they do it to know what to avoid.

Distilled (or deionised) water would be best for the final rinse, just to reduce the chance of any deposits being left; but if you're using a wetting agent, it's less important.

Just holding the negs by the edges should be fine; if you wear gloves, you might leave deposits from them, plus you may find it more difficult to manipulate the negatives. The only real warning I'd issue is to hang them up to dry in a dust free environment, and preferable one without much footfall. If doing this at home, a bathroom is usually best, especially if you've just used steam to reduce dust in the atmosphere.
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Thanks Stephen,

That's all really useful to know (y)

I've been offered use of the dark room at work so I imagine not many ppl using it.

I will buy distilled / de ionised water.

I'll update here how it goes. Appreciate everyone on this forum:)
 
GreenNinja67 said:
This happened to me.

I soaked some neg strips in water for 45 minutes and when they eventually came apart the emulsion slipped off, literally slipped off. I didn't rub them or anything like that.

If the negs are that important I'd seek professional advice before attempting this.
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Yikes, that's a bit worrying :oops: :$

They are important & v. sentimental.

So you soaked for only 45 minutes & that's what happened? Can I ask what the temperature of the water was? Thanks
 
The temperature is an important question. For context, before I started using the Harman water saving wash method, I standardly washed my films for 30 minutes in either six changes of water, 5 minute intervals, or 30 minutes in a continuous flow after I'd used progressively cooler water rinses to bring the temperature down to that of the cold tap.

I recall that Grant Haist (former Kodak chemist) has some comments on washing temperatures and dangers in Modern Photographic Processing which I might look up later.

Edit to add:
The normal black and white processing temperature is 68 F, 20 C. Modern colour processes go higher. Older books (as in older when I was young!) often carried information on tropical processing where temperatures were always higher than 20 C.
 
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StephenM said:
The temperature is an important question. For context, before I started using the Harman water saving wash method, I standardly washed my films for 30 minutes in either six changes of water, 5 minute intervals, or 30 minutes in a continuous flow after I'd used progressively cooler water rinses to bring the temperature down to that of the cold tap.

I recall that Grant Haist (former Kodak chemist) has some comments on washing temperatures and dangers in Modern Photographic Processing which I might look up later.

Edit to add:
The normal black and white processing temperature is 68 F, 20 C. Modern colour processes go higher. Older books (as in older when I was young!) often carried information on tropical processing where temperatures were always higher than 20 C.
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I found the link and will look through it later to see if I can find anything relevant / useful on temperatures. Please let me know if you find anything too. Many thanks

archive.org

Modern photographic processing : Haist, Grant Milford : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Illustrationen ; 24 cm
archive.org
 
In that case, I'll take a more careful look at the parts on washing (around page 600 in the first volume of the set - I have them as physical volumes, so no access problems). The internet archive has many older books that cover film processing that are free to download, but I'm not certain (actually, highly uncertain) whether trying to make a list of links wouldn't be information overload.
 
I have done an accidental emulsion lift on a 120 roll of FP4+. It was winter and the tap water was very cold which I warmed up using the single lever mixer tap I had intended to slowly reduce the hot water as the wash time elapsed, I did not realise that I was actually slowly increasing the hot only noticing when water vapour appeared from the 60 deg. C ish wash water in the developing tank.

The lift occurred from the edges of the roll inwards for somewhere between zero and 6mm or so, the centre parts of the images were usable.
 
I've been skimming various books on washing. The main topic they all cover is why it's necessary, and different ways of increasing the effectiveness of washing rather than washing times per se.

The best I can offer so far re time is that one book, having discussed washing film in running water talks of 30 minutes as the time, but adds that if multiple films are involved, the time may be increased to 40 minutes. It might be worth noting that when multiple changes of water are involved, the 40 minute point could be reached.

Grant Haist discusses the effects of different things on washing times, but what is of interest is his reporting on the differences found between 30c and 40c washing temperatures.

Based on what I've found to far, it seems that 40c won't harm film, and nor will 40 minutes. The big caveat I'll make is that the immersion time at 40c isn't given, nor is the temperature of 40 min washes, although 20c may be assumed.

What is safe will actually depend on how the film was originally processed as there are additives used if high temperatures are to be used.

So far, I seem to be in a "how long is a piece of string" territory.
 
Can I backtrack to the very beginning? What has caused the negatives to stick together? Is it simply the water, or was there any water based glues used in the negative packets that could have dissolved and glued the negatives together?

One very simple test you could make if you buy a film and are prepared to waste it would be to cut a small length off and see what happens if you soak it in water for a protracted time - or look intermittently to check for damage. With another couple of cut offs, try to reproduce the sticking and then see what happens when you soak. That way, you should be dealing with the problem from a place of experience.

Given that one description of wetting agent is a non foaming detergent, possibly adding a small amount of wetting agent to the soak water might help.
 
StephenM said:
Can I backtrack to the very beginning? What has caused the negatives to stick together? Is it simply the water, or was there any water based glues used in the negative packets that could have dissolved and glued the negatives together?

One very simple test you could make if you buy a film and are prepared to waste it would be to cut a small length off and see what happens if you soak it in water for a protracted time - or look intermittently to check for damage. With another couple of cut offs, try to reproduce the sticking and then see what happens when you soak. That way, you should be dealing with the problem from a place of experience.

Given that one description of wetting agent is a non foaming detergent, possibly adding a small amount of wetting agent to the soak water might help.
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Hi Stephen

Thank you for taking the time to look up the information.

The negatives, with pictures, were in a storage unit which had a water leak.

Unfortunately I was overseas when this happened & so everything was in water for 4-5 days before I could get it out.
 
Well, you seem to have added to our store of information. A four or five day wash seems to be OK.

The nearest thing I've come across in my own experience is in glazing glossy prints. Printing papers come in matt or glossy varieties (plus others years ago), but to get the really high gloss finish we're accustomed to in prints from the chemist (as they were in those days) it was necessary to glaze the prints. To do this, they were soaked in a glazing solution and then placed in contact with a very smooth surface. Either a metal surface in a glazing machine, or if you couldn't afford that, squeegeed down onto a clean glass surface. I used a mirror, and more often than not the prints stuck and had to be soaked off. Prints rather than film, but the same principle. To avoid damage, long soaks were often needed.
 
I've not been able to upload the other pictures I took today when I finally went to sort the negatives. Anyway I soaked the first batch in 600ml of de-ionised water with a squirt of ilfotol wetting agent. The photography tutor was handling the negatives with his hands. I agitated the water (just moved the tray from side to side for a while) and after about 15 minutes he came back in and prized the negatives apart with his hands. (I wasn't sure if the negatives should be handled this way, but as he was helping me, didn't want to question this. ) They came apart and then I dried them in the drying cupboard using clips and weighting the bottom with clips. The drying cupboard looks quite dusty at the bottom, so I'm not sure this was the best place for them :oops: :$ but it's done now. I will do the rest at home where I can keep things as dust free as possible. If I can I'll reduce the size of the other pictures (anyone knowhow I can do that?) so I can upload them here. The picture above was taken to show that the colour of the water became slightly pinky / purply after about 15 minutes.. is this normal?I'll collect the negatives tomorrow and will update on the result.
 
Resizing a picture: the simplest option. If you have Windows 10 or 11, there's an app called Photos. Using Windows Explorer, find the file you want to resize. Right-click on it, select "Open with..." and select Photos in the resulting drop-down menu. Your picture will open, with various options shown. There's a row of icons at the top, ending with "..." Click on that and you have a resize option.

There are non-native programs/apps that do this too; but what I describe above ought to work for you. One safety device would make copies of all the files you want to resize and resize those rather than the originals. Saves messing something up for ever!

How many images might you want scanned? I can scan any format from 35mm up to 5"x4", at 3200 pixels per inch (I'm an amateur; so don't ask about money).
 
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