Hybrid shooting: scanning negs & cataloguing in Lightroom

pjm1

pjm1

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Paul
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Right, I'll come straight out with my confession: I'm going to be a hybrid film shooter... I'm afraid I'm hooked on having digital access to my shots so I'll be scanning the negatives into Lightroom.

I have a few noob questions, which I'll come onto in a sec. My setup is a Mamiya RZ67 ProII shooting a mix of colour and B&W 6x7. I currently have this developed by AG but I now have access to processing facilities and I'll take that leap shortly. Once dried (or arrived, in the case of AG negs) I'll then scan these using their Hasselblad X5 at 3200dpi and 16 bits per channel. Only downside to this is the 66MP files are 370MB each :eek:... so nearly 4GB per roll of film. I will then take my memory stick back home and import into LR5.

1. Shooting notes: I currently use scraps of paper to note all my settings for each shot... is there a better solution? Maybe a notebook or even an app for my phone? Curious what other people do
2. Drying time: I'm guessing it needs to be at least a couple of hours, which is ok as I can grab a sandwich or something while I'm waiting?
3. Importing into LR: is there any way to add EXIF info such as camera, lens, aperture, s/s, ISO etc. in LR? I currently use EXIFTool with EXIFGui but obviously this introduces another step before or after import. I'm not even sure if EXIFTool works with 3F format "raw" files (i.e. the output of the scanner). The plan is to add all of my shooting notes into the EXIF
4. How is LR for very large raw files? My digital camera (which I'll still be using for most shots) is only 16MP so the RAW files are way smaller. I have a reasonably specced PC with SSD, quad core, 16GB RAM etc. so I'm hoping I'll be ok, although I imagine if I take any of them into PS and start adding new layers it could get a bit messy...
5. Any recommendations for labs that will do silver prints from digital files? Just in case there are a few nice shots in amongst the carp :)

I'm sure there's a load of other stuff I've forgotten/not thought about yet, but when my next two rolls come back from AG, I want to scan in the 25 images I'll have by then and get started. At the end of Jan I then have a two day darkroom course including wet printing, so I'll no doubt have loads more questions after that!

Cheers - and please don't shoot me for not sticking to the wet stuff all the way though! :exit:
 
Paul, don't worry, nearly everyone here is on a hybrid workflow, figital, whatever!

Pretty sure I've heard of an app that helps you make shooting notes, where you can also import into the EXIF (or possibly the IPTC metadata)... but I don't know what it is, sorry. IIRC it didn't look like it would suit someone who uses two different cameras,,,

I'd assume LR copes with huge raws as the digi boys have them these days. However, I can't personally see the point of getting huge raws (or TIFFs) for my stuff, since the hit rate is so low. Since your workflow includes an interim storage medium, could you scan to JPEG as well (maybe at much lower dpi... you only rarely need more than 1200 dpi for MF, IMHO)? Import the JPEGs into LR and triage them. Then the everyday images wouldn't take up too much space, and for the 4 and 5 star images you can import the high density raws... I know folk say storage is cheap but at 4GB a roll it would get eaten very quickly.
 
That's a very good idea, Chris: 1200dpi would obviously quarter the file size which is a meaningful reduction and scanning to JPG rather than the proprietary TIFF would make it much smaller again. The biggest impact TBH all this file storage has is making the automated backup job take looooonger and looooooonger to run each night. I think I'll need to investigate a better solution for that...

TBH, I'd only use the app thingie for film - for digital I rely on the camera to record the info and import almost immediately. It's film where my memory would be tested to failure point!

Cheers for the suggestions - all very helpful.
 
Paul, I exist in that world. I shoot with a number of film cameras I use a programme called FilmTrackr to keep a record of what film, camera and subjects I shoot. It's web based so I have my shooting record on my Iphone, Ipad and MBP simultaneously. It also plots what's in what camera (I sometimes forget, old age!!). I then have a clear developing, scanning and cataloguing regime. I am an unashamed Hybrid photographer, I prefer film cameras and the film process but when I have a neg the digital side kicks in. I have great respect for the purists but my enlargers (Durst and Rollei) and wet kit have been neatly packed up for some years. I like Lightroom because in my head I occupy the same space I did in the darkroom when using it. I never had this experience with Photoshop and only use PS Elements for dust removal.

I have used Peak for digital prints and a on rare occasions a local photographer for wet prints from my negs. When I retire I will reinstate my darkroom! While a time poor wage slave I will remain a hybrid shooter and proud! I suspect there are many in the F&C brotherhood/sisterhood who take the same approach.
 
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Any amateur film photographer whose photos you have seen anywhere online is probably using a somewhat hybrid workflow, even if it is just to scan their prints. In fact, almost anyone who has prints from colour film has been subjected to hydbrid workflow. The computer age is here and a rare few of us have kept it away from our photography. A rare few of us care either it would seem.

In short, use whatever workflow works for you and get on with it, you don't get points for being a purist, because chances are few will see your work if you are one :p
 
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pjm1 said:
5. Any recommendations for labs that will do silver prints from digital files? Just in case there are a few nice shots in amongst the carp :)
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Can't really help on your other questions (I don't make notes, I don't rush to scan anything - I just wait till the film feels dry to touch, I don't use LR) but I know Ilford do (or did?) this. I've had them print a couple of my photos and the results and service were nothing short of fantastic.
 
Thanks @Jao and @mustanir - that's helpful (and somewhat comforting!)

I've signed up to FilmTrackr - looks great although requiring an internet connection means I won't be using it when shooting in quite a bit of Scotland :) Although the old paper & pen option is also limited given the amount of rain we have on the hills! I think a combination of both would be good - old fashions paper backup and transfer to online when I have internet.

Good to know about Ilford - will do some digging.

Cheers guys...
 
Exif4Film was the one I was interested in earlier, sadly the desktop stuff appears to be Win only and I do Mac, so no good for me. :(
 
pjm1 said:
1. Shooting notes: I currently use scraps of paper to note all my settings for each shot... is there a better solution? Maybe a notebook or even an app for my phone? Curious what other people do
2. Drying time: I'm guessing it needs to be at least a couple of hours, which is ok as I can grab a sandwich or something while I'm waiting?
3. Importing into LR: is there any way to add EXIF info such as camera, lens, aperture, s/s, ISO etc. in LR? I currently use EXIFTool with EXIFGui but obviously this introduces another step before or after import. I'm not even sure if EXIFTool works with 3F format "raw" files (i.e. the output of the scanner). The plan is to add all of my shooting notes into the EXIF
4. How is LR for very large raw files? My digital camera (which I'll still be using for most shots) is only 16MP so the RAW files are way smaller. I have a reasonably specced PC with SSD, quad core, 16GB RAM etc. so I'm hoping I'll be ok, although I imagine if I take any of them into PS and start adding new layers it could get a bit messy...
5. Any recommendations for labs that will do silver prints from digital files? Just in case there are a few nice shots in amongst the carp :)
Click to expand...

1. I never take notes tbh. You shoot roll film so how does note taking help? I shoot sheet film and still never really bother with notes (i probably should i guess) but since 6 sheets get done at once all developed the same way i dont really worry about how the shot was set up originally.

2. I usually leave a few hours hanging in the bathroom. Its the most dust free room in the house. You can touch the end of a strip and feel it its a little "tacky" and just leave it another hour.

3. You can manually add tags to images in LR which will all help with cataloging. I did start off doing this but i soon got fed up :) I just stick the images in an appropriate subject folder these days. Im more likely to look for images i shot in cornwall rather than images i shot at f24 or whatever.

4. Its fine. My large format scans are stupidly huge. I use an i7 quad core something or other with only 8 gigs of ram and ssd's and its fine. There are a few seconds as it renders a thumbnail into proper res but im more than happy with it and dont feel the urge to upgrade.

5. Try Ilford.
 
abdoujaparov said:
If you have an Android phone, then there's Exif4Film - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=dk.codeunited.exif4film&hl=en

It allows you to record shot data on your phone as you shoot. The companion Windows application will then insert this info into your scanned images as EXIF.

I believe there's an iOS equivalent, too - PhotoExif, maybe?
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ChrisR said:
Exif4Film was the one I was interested in earlier, sadly the desktop stuff appears to be Win only and I do Mac, so no good for me. :(
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Thanks guys - I've downloaded that an will have a play tonight / tomorrow. Looks good so far :)

AshleyC said:
1. I never take notes tbh. You shoot roll film so how does note taking help? I shoot sheet film and still never really bother with notes (i probably should i guess) but since 6 sheets get done at once all developed the same way i dont really worry about how the shot was set up originally.

2. I usually leave a few hours hanging in the bathroom. Its the most dust free room in the house. You can touch the end of a strip and feel it its a little "tacky" and just leave it another hour.

3. You can manually add tags to images in LR which will all help with cataloging. I did start off doing this but i soon got fed up :) I just stick the images in an appropriate subject folder these days. Im more likely to look for images i shot in cornwall rather than images i shot at f24 or whatever.

4. Its fine. My large format scans are stupidly huge. I use an i7 quad core something or other with only 8 gigs of ram and ssd's and its fine. There are a few seconds as it renders a thumbnail into proper res but im more than happy with it and dont feel the urge to upgrade.

5. Try Ilford.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ashley - that's very helpful.

1. I take notes because I'm very much learning: I find it helpful to know what my setup was when I'm looking at the end picture. I'm also a bit anal in that I like my EXIF to be as complete as possible on my digital images :oops: :$ Edited to add: I've also been shooting a lot indoors with a strobe and/or flash so I like to have a record of camera settings when looking back to see how I'd improve things next time.

2. That's handy to know. The studio which had developing facilities has a fairly big area for development (including a dark cupboard for loading the spool) so I reckon they will have plenty of hanging space. Eventually I'll be doing it at home, but one step at a time...

3 & 4. Cool - that's good to know.

5. Wicked... at some point I reckon I'd like to get a proper print made of nicer shots (I'm not going to have too many, I suspect) so will investigate once I'm at that stage...

Cheers all (y)
 
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Re: drying time, I leave mine in the shower room overnight which implies they get left for at least 7-8 hours and are always dry in that time. I used to have a film drying cabinet which would dry a film in 20 minutes and I suspect the lab you are using will have one of these; it's basically just a fan heater at the top of a cabinet with the film hanging inside the cabinet.

Lightroom limits the EXIF fields you can modify, for reasons I don't really understand, so I still use EXIFgui before import, if I can be bothered.

I rarely take notes of aperture and shutter speed, but I can see why you might want to if you're experimenting with flash. Through your digital experience, you will already be familiar with the effects of aperture and shutter speed; the main difference in medium format is that you have much less depth of field for a given aperture. It is worth having a set of depth of field tables at hand; I have these for the 50mm, 65mm, and 110mm RZ lenses, which I could scan if you don't already have them.
 
Thanks @Kevin Allan - that's helpful. The lenses have DOF ranges on them, but I'm always a bit sceptical of their accuracy. I use DOFmaster for my crop sensor camera but it didn't have a dropdown for the RZ67! I've actually been very surprised with the 50mm lens that having the bellows contracted all the way (or virtually) pretty much gets every one of my shots in focus. It's a good starting point at least :) Don't think that'll be the case with the 180mm...
 
I scan and print digitally.

I've never bothered with taking notes of exposure etc. On the rare occasions when someone has asked me about the settings, I've looked at the image and estimated the exposure time from my memory of the scene (I nearly always use f/16).

On scanning, I always scan large. It might waste disc space, but it saves me from having to rescan. If you scan at 1200 dpi and aim at 300 ppi for the prints, that works out at a 4 times enlargement. That's possibly reasonable if your using sheet film, but with the 6x7 that a maximum print size of 9"x11" (say A4 in digiterms). Do beware of only having a jpg, especially if using black and white, as cutting down to 8 bits severely limits any room for post processing.

There are fast drying methods. I've never tried the "rinse in meths and apply a match" that has sometimes been recommended (but I have seen a photo of the charred remains from someone who did try it - the charred remains of the film, not the person). A safer variant is an alcohol rinse and natural dry, which is faster. Agfa used to market Drysonal to use for this - I have a bottle. Reuse is possible.

I don't know how LightRoom copes with large files, but I used to use PhotoShop CS with LF scans on a 512K RAM computer. That was running Win2000 though, so RAM use by the OS wasn't so high.
 
pjm1 said:
1. Shooting notes: I currently use scraps of paper to note all my settings for each shot... is there a better solution? Maybe a notebook or even an app for my phone? Curious what other people do

3. Importing into LR: is there any way to add EXIF info such as camera, lens, aperture, s/s, ISO etc. in LR? I currently use EXIFTool with EXIFGui but obviously this introduces another step before or after import. I'm not even sure if EXIFTool works with 3F format "raw" files (i.e. the output of the scanner). The plan is to add all of my shooting notes into the EXIF.
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If you use an iPhone and mac, you can download PhotoExif for the iPhone to record exposure, film, equipment, time, and location data as you shoot and then automatically add that data to each photograph later using the corresponding desktop client.

Using this, all of my own photos in Lightroom and Flickr have complete exif data, which has proven quite helpful.

Regarding your concerns about space and the large medium format tif files, there's likely no need to scan at 3200dpi until you want to print large. I'd personally recommend a far more economical scan for the bulk of the photos and a more detailed scan only for those special photographs you're looking to print.
 
skysh4rk said:
Regarding your concerns about space and the large medium format tif files, there's likely no need to scan at 3200dpi until you want to print large. I'd personally recommend a far more economical scan for the bulk of the photos and a more detailed scan only for those special photographs you're looking to print.
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And bear in mind when people say storage is cheap (something I've been guilty of myself) - storage may be cheap, but backups are a pain in the rear curtain.
 
abdoujaparov said:
And bear in mind when people say storage is cheap (something I've been guilty of myself) - storage may be cheap, but backups are a pain in the rear curtain.
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The other thing to remember is that you always have a physical back up that can be scanned again and again; there's absolutely no need to have every single film frame scanned at maximum resolution unless you want to bloat your computer and waste a lot of time at the scanning and editing stages dealing with huge files.
 
skysh4rk said:
The other thing to remember is that you always have a physical back up that can be scanned again and again
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This! I have three backups of my digital images (two at home and one elsewhere in case anything weird happens to the house), but I don't feel the need to back my film scans up to such a degree, They just go onto one hard drive when they're done and that's pretty much that.
 
PMN said:
This! I have three backups of my digital images (two at home and one elsewhere in case anything weird happens to the house), but I don't feel the need to back my film scans up to such a degree, They just go onto one hard drive when they're done and that's pretty much that.
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... provided the negs and the hard drive are not in the same location, in case "anything weird happens to the house"?
 
Small 5gb hard drive lives in my office drawer works fine for off site backups, I bring it home once a month or so to update. Live back up on the file server and photos are kept on a separate partition from the OS after windows 8 killed a few months of unprocessed nef files when it clapped out and had to be reinstalled.
 
I use the PhotoEXIF app that RJ has said about, and it's great. You can set it up for multiple cameras and lenses and then just swap between them depending on what you're using at the time. Then after you have the scanned images on your computer the desktop version of the app will write all of the data to the file for you. Really easy to use.

Lightroom will be ok with big files. I have a few which are about 9600x4800 pixels and are 715MB (before I got into film and I was trying to get the MF look by stitching loads of digital images), and LR works fine with them. My Mac goes a little slower when it's trying to use those images but your PC sounds like it's quite a bit better so you should be ok :)
 
pjm1 said:
Thanks @Kevin Allan - that's helpful. The lenses have DOF ranges on them, but I'm always a bit sceptical of their accuracy. I use DOFmaster for my crop sensor camera but it didn't have a dropdown for the RZ67! I've actually been very surprised with the 50mm lens that having the bellows contracted all the way (or virtually) pretty much gets every one of my shots in focus. It's a good starting point at least :) Don't think that'll be the case with the 180mm...
Click to expand...

I use DOF master too and I just change the CoC setting to 0.060 for 6x7 or 0.055 for 6x6 (wikipedia says they're actually 0.059 and 0.053, but the DOF master app only goes up in 0.005 increments)
 
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