I got escorted off Canary Wharf by security...

Jo said:
Gary, to be totally truthful I can see why he was arrested. I also think the lad was really silly to put himself in that position given his/the whole situation.

People will say "But terrorists aren't stupid enough to be that obvious". Well there is such a thing as reverse psychology. Not saying it is so, but it is possible. Especially if their other avenues of gathering accurate information begin to fail them. These people will give up their lives ... worse they will happily blow themselves to pieces for their cause. I don't put anything else past them. They are capable of anything to get what they want. A lot of them are highly educated people who will know acting stupid is sometimes the cleverest way to act to get what you want.
Click to expand...


So in short, a Muslim, with a camera, taking photos for a university project, who is armed with all the right ID...deserves to be arrested, strip searched and detained for 7 hours?

Give me a break, this is EXACTLY why these barmy rules need clarified and quick. That guy deserves the right to take the lot of them to court, he should be awarded substantial damages for what is an absolutely ridiculous thing to be put through.

His only "crime" on the day, looking like a Muslim...oooops I mean Terrorist.

Gary.
 
I must confess that I agree with Jo and other on here. I agree that the security guards did there job correctly. You said that you had been in the pub, where you slightly worse for ware? And walking round somewhere like canary wharf at gone 2am what do you really expect. If I had been the guard who you made your whitty reply to I too would have escorted you off the estate, if not have called the police. Its smart arsed comments like the one you made that make it harder for all the other togs.
 
EdinburghGary said:
So in short, a Muslim, with a camera, taking photos for a university project, who is armed with all the right ID...deserves to be arrested, strip searched and detained for 7 hours?

Give me a break, this is EXACTLY why these barmy rules need clarified and quick. That guy deserves the right to take the lot of them to court, he should be awarded substantial damages for what is an absolutely ridiculous thing to be put through.

His only "crime" on the day, looking like a Muslim...oooops I mean Terrorist.

Gary.
Click to expand...

Out of interest, as the judge, would you award him the compensation based on his evidence alone?
 
Perhaps if the OP did not come across as such a know it all pratt,as per his inane ramblings about Royal Mail and reply to Jo above, amongst others, he would not find himself in the positions that he does.

Just an observation based on a my readings on here.
 
EdinburghGary said:
Thanks for the English lesson, appreciated. Any more?

Sounds clear cut to me. Stopped 4 times in an hour for doing something which is within the rules and permitted.

How would you like to be pulled over 4 times in an hour, whilst maintaining the speed limit and doing nothing to warrant such attention?

Gary.
Click to expand...

Gary are you talking about Luke or the guy in that report being arrested? If it's Luke.. well he didn't stick within the rules did he? He's not a student but is a professional (well he has admitted taking money for his images right? So he would be in the eyes of the law).

For all we know the security guys ran a check on the student card that was produced, and they discovered that neither was a student, making their being there look suspicious. Hence why they were stopped numerous times.
 
Kryptix said:
Oh right Jo darling babes. So what should I have done? I'm apparently the smart arse but you seem to know absolutely everything. Please bare in mind that I already knew the rules regarding Canary Wharf as I have read about this in the past. I knew I didn't have to be a student to take pictures, so when 'security guard' told me otherwise I knew he was wrong. This was confirmed by another security guard down the line. They all say different things but I took my information from an e-mail I received back from Canary Wharf when I questioned about what happened to a friend of mine.

Like I said darling, I could have either told the truth and got escorted off instantly (when I'm doing nothing wrong what-so-ever), or tell a lie to this 'security guard' and continue on my way.

Why was I really silly to get into that 'position'?

It took us over 2 hours to prepare for that trip -- would you honestly just turn around and leave even if you knew you were doing nothing wrong darling? :shrug:
Click to expand...

Don't be so condescending and patronising! :nono:
 
mrgubby said:
I spent a nice afternoon wandering around Canary Wharf with my kit (but no tripod) without a single word from security.



Maybe I just don't look Terroristy :shrug:
Click to expand...
Maybe 2 casually-dressed English blokes in their low-twenties and 1 smartly dressed English woman also in her low-twenties do... I was the only one with the camera. I had only bought the one lens so I didn't even have a bag on me. Merely a single camera with a tripod attached to it.
 
Kryptix said:
Oh right Jo darling babes. So what should I have done? I'm apparently the smart arse but you seem to know absolutely everything. Please bare in mind that I already knew the rules regarding Canary Wharf as I have read about this in the past. I knew I didn't have to be a student to take pictures, so when 'security guard' told me otherwise I knew he was wrong. This was confirmed by another security guard down the line. They all say different things but I took my information from an e-mail I received back from Canary Wharf when I questioned about what happened to a friend of mine.

Like I said darling, I could have either told the truth and got escorted off instantly (when I'm doing nothing wrong what-so-ever), or tell a lie to this 'security guard' and continue on my way.

Why was I really silly to get into that 'position'?

It took us over 2 hours to prepare for that trip -- would you honestly just turn around and leave even if you knew you were doing nothing wrong darling? :shrug:
Click to expand...

Well since you asked so nicely. I will answer you nicely. That post was not about you.
 
The War on Photography

What is it with photographers these days? Are they really all terrorists, or does everyone just think they are?

it's nonsense. The 9/11 terrorists didn't photograph anything. Nor did the London transport bombers, the Madrid subway bombers, or the liquid bombers arrested in 2006. Timothy McVeigh didn't photograph the Oklahoma City Federal Building. The Unabomber didn't photograph anything; neither did shoe-bomber Richard Reid. Photographs aren't being found amongst the papers of Palestinian suicide bombers. The IRA wasn't known for its photography. Even those manufactured terrorist plots that the US government likes to talk about -- the Ft. Dix terrorists, the JFK airport bombers, the Miami 7, the Lackawanna 6 -- no photography.

Given that real terrorists, and even wannabe terrorists, don't seem to photograph anything, why is it such pervasive conventional wisdom that terrorists photograph their targets? Why are our fears so great that we have no choice but to be suspicious of any photographer?

Because it's a movie-plot threat.

A movie-plot threat is a specific threat, vivid in our minds like the plot of a movie. You remember them from the months after the 9/11 attacks: anthrax spread from crop dusters, a contaminated milk supply, terrorist scuba divers armed with almanacs. Our imaginations run wild with detailed and specific threats, from the news, and from actual movies and television shows. These movie plots resonate in our minds and in the minds of others we talk to. And many of us get scared.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/06/the_war_on_phot.html
 
fabs said:
Don't be so condescending and patronising! :nono:
Click to expand...
I suggest you should read her posts again, I notice you didn't say anything about her personal comments?
 
Jo said:
I know I may seem OTT on most subjects like this (well emotive ones anyway), but I put a high value on life. I can not stand to see innocent people hurt because of other peoples needless actions or selfishness. Life is far too precious to waste like that.
Click to expand...

Life is also too precious to live in fear of being killed by terrorists.
 
Simmotino said:
I didn't think so, but you seem pretty much certain that he should be awarded damages, even though you've only heard one side of the story :shrug:
Click to expand...

I should have added, assuming it was true. I have no reason to doubt that a terrorist suspect would be strip searched and detained for 7 hours though. In fact, it sounds far milder than I would expect.

To clarify, IF it happened as described, he should be compensated.

Gary.
 
I've been stopped there before aswell, fortunutely I had my dad with my who is a police officer.

I didn't take any pics in the end anyway.

The tripod is meant to be because of health & Safety, incase someone trips over it.

You can apply for a pass to allow you to photograph on there but where is the fun in that.

This post makes me want to head off to canary wharf and take some snaps.
 
poacher said:
The War on Photography

What is it with photographers these days? Are they really all terrorists, or does everyone just think they are?

it's nonsense. The 9/11 terrorists didn't photograph anything. Nor did the London transport bombers, the Madrid subway bombers, or the liquid bombers arrested in 2006. Timothy McVeigh didn't photograph the Oklahoma City Federal Building. The Unabomber didn't photograph anything; neither did shoe-bomber Richard Reid. Photographs aren't being found amongst the papers of Palestinian suicide bombers. The IRA wasn't known for its photography. Even those manufactured terrorist plots that the US government likes to talk about -- the Ft. Dix terrorists, the JFK airport bombers, the Miami 7, the Lackawanna 6 -- no photography.

Given that real terrorists, and even wannabe terrorists, don't seem to photograph anything, why is it such pervasive conventional wisdom that terrorists photograph their targets? Why are our fears so great that we have no choice but to be suspicious of any photographer?

Because it's a movie-plot threat.

A movie-plot threat is a specific threat, vivid in our minds like the plot of a movie. You remember them from the months after the 9/11 attacks: anthrax spread from crop dusters, a contaminated milk supply, terrorist scuba divers armed with almanacs. Our imaginations run wild with detailed and specific threats, from the news, and from actual movies and television shows. These movie plots resonate in our minds and in the minds of others we talk to. And many of us get scared.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/06/the_war_on_phot.html
Click to expand...



Poacher you have some very valid points. Though it is only conjecture, a lot like most of what I have said. To be fair none of us really know for sure just how terrorists work. We only know what we are told by the people who work on cases of terrorism. They are not going to tell us everything as that would hamper their prevention techniques. Which do seem to be working, right?

I do know however, that if the government or any other authority is worried about such things, then we should be worried to. They are the ones that do know.



Luke what personal comment are you referring to? I said you were acting like a smart arse, which you were, or are you denying that?
 
EdinburghGary said:
I should have added, assuming it was true. I have no reason to doubt that a terrorist suspect would be strip searched and detained for 7 hours though. In fact, it sounds far milder than I would expect.

To clarify, IF it happened as described, he should be compensated.

Gary.
Click to expand...

In the interests of clarity, I'd fully agree with you if indeed that were the full and true account of events. However, we all know the media's tendency to offer a somewhat simplified story in the interests of sensationalism.

It does seem the security personnel in this country (official or private) get a very rough ride from a lot of people based on one sided stories which, for a number of reasons, have to remain one sided.

No doubt some are deserving of such treatment, but I'd wager a large number of them aren't when the full facts are known.
 
OH and also, I've been stopped at blue Water car park for the same thing, was told not to photograph the structure of the car park.

It mainly comes down to security guards getting bored.
 
Jo said:
That's rediculuous! They are not there to entertain you or joke around when you make humour involving something they are there to prevent. They are paid to protect the property and the human life that uses it.
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely convinced these rent-a-cops would know a terrorist if one bit them on the bum anyway. If our coppers struggle to pick a terrorist out of the crowd, how is someone on 8 quid an hour going to be sufficiently trained to know who and who isn't packing semtex? I know this because I worked (briefly) as a security guard.
 
Kryptix said:
Oh right Jo darling babes. So what should I have done? I'm apparently the smart arse but you seem to know absolutely everything. Please bare in mind that I already knew the rules regarding Canary Wharf as I have read about this in the past. I knew I didn't have to be a student to take pictures, so when 'security guard' told me otherwise I knew he was wrong. This was confirmed by another security guard down the line. They all say different things but I took my information from an e-mail I received back from Canary Wharf when I questioned about what happened to a friend of mine.

Like I said darling, I could have either told the truth and got escorted off instantly (when I'm doing nothing wrong what-so-ever), or tell a lie to this 'security guard' and continue on my way.

Why was I really silly to get into that 'position'?

It took us over 2 hours to prepare for that trip -- would you honestly just turn around and leave even if you knew you were doing nothing wrong darling? :shrug:
Click to expand...

Kryptix said:
No fabs, I'm not. Do you have any other utterly-pointless questions you'd like to ask me?
Click to expand...



Are you supprised that you got escorted off the estate if you showed any of that attitude?
 
Simmotino said:
In the interests of clarity, I'd fully agree with you if indeed that were the full and true account of events. However, we all know the media's tendency to offer a somewhat simplified story in the interests of sensationalism.

It does seem the security personnel in this country (official or private) get a very rough ride from a lot of people based on one sided stories which, for a number of reasons, have to remain one sided.

No doubt some are deserving of such treatment, but I'd wager a large number of them aren't when the full facts are known.
Click to expand...

That's fair enough. I have had two experiences really. One at the wharf which I laugh about, and one at my local RBS where I was threatened with Violence and told that my camera would be smashed. As a result I stayed my ground and asked them to call the police, which they of course, refused to do.

I am not wanting my input in this thread to be taken as a dig at anyone BTW. Just a healthy debate. I just think we are often too quick to accept a watering down of rights and liberties, before we know it, we will be applying for our "Yearly DSLR license".

Gary.
 
welly said:
Life is also too precious to live in fear of being killed by terrorists.
Click to expand...

You are right of course, and I wholly admit that I have a few issues with worrying about things like this. But not for me, for those that I love. Even the thought of some random innocent person getting hurt can and does leave me in tears sometimes. Empathy can be a terrible thing.
 
welly said:
I'm not entirely convinced these rent-a-cops would know a terrorist if one bit them on the bum anyway. If our coppers struggle to pick a terrorist out of the crowd, how is someone on 8 quid an hour going to be sufficiently trained to know who and who isn't packing semtex? I know this because I worked (briefly) as a security guard.
Click to expand...
Surely the whole problem though is that they have to reverse the commonly held understanding of innocent until proven guilty to be able to prevent terrorism?

If they followed that edit, they would allow everyone to do what they liked until they actually blew something up, at which point it would be too late.....
 
Jo said:
I do know however, that if the government or any other authority is worried about such things, then we should be worried to. They are the ones that do know.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this.

It is a convenient way to bring by the back door a control of the masses.
 
Byker28i said:
On the other hand chaps, you're a security guard, working a night shift, possibly bored and some entertainment comes your way...
Click to expand...

Thats EXACTLY what I think, nothing else to do and see someone with a camera,might aswell question them. They should all be linked on radio though so once questioned they can be left alone.
 
welly said:
Life is also too precious to live in fear of being killed by terrorists.
Click to expand...

As Welly said, everyone living life in fear is what the terrorists want, stopping people carrying about their daily business and perfectly innocent activities just means the terrorists win.
 
Simmotino said:
Surely the whole problem though is that they have to reverse the commonly held understanding of innocent until proven guilty to be able to prevent terrorism?

If they followed that edit, they would allow everyone to do what they liked until they actually blew something up, at which point it would be too late.....
Click to expand...

......and then they would be looking for someone to blame for not stopping people and asking questions.
 
Jo said:
You are right of course, and I wholly admit that I have a few issues with worrying about things like this. But not for me, for those that I love. Even the thought of some random innocent person getting hurt can and does leave me in tears sometimes. Empathy can be a terrible thing.
Click to expand...

Jo,

You are not alone. I refused to get on buses and trains for almost 18 months after July 7th. I am still scared of the tube. I will never fly again after the media coverage of September 11. I will be damned though if my fears and paranoia allow me to accept a state wide clampdown on our individual choices.

PS - I am not just scared of terrorism - I have a cupboard full of Tamiflu, I don't walk under Scaffold and well....who cares :D I kid you not !!!

Gary.
 
Jo said:
You are right of course, and I wholly admit that I have a few issues with worrying about things like this. But not for me, for those that I love. Even the thought of some random innocent person getting hurt can and does leave me in tears sometimes. Empathy can be a terrible thing.
Click to expand...

I agree with you about not wanting anyone to get hurt, but stopping photographers for anti-terrisom is nothing short of a joke.

Pretty much all terrorist plots that are stopped and the result of catching them taking photo's of a building but are from weeks or months of monitoring them.

Police don't want to catch a terrorist gathering intel, they want to catch them planning the attack so they have a case against them.
 
Argh - that "alright darling babes" comment used to really annoy us when walking round Dartford and through the park, thought I'd managed to get away from it :lol: . :bat::lol:
 
EdinburghGary said:
I am not wanting my input in this thread to be taken as a dig at anyone BTW. Just a healthy debate. I just think we are often too quick to accept a watering down of rights and liberties, before we know it, we will be applying for our "Yearly DSLR license".

Gary.
Click to expand...
Ditto and, in the main, I agree with you (and others) that the rules laid down in certain places are a little over sensitive but, having been employed to ensure they are followed, we can't necessarily lay all the blame at the security staff's door.
 
welly said:
I'm not entirely convinced these rent-a-cops would know a terrorist if one bit them on the bum anyway. If our coppers struggle to pick a terrorist out of the crowd, how is someone on 8 quid an hour going to be sufficiently trained to know who and who isn't packing semtex? I know this because I worked (briefly) as a security guard.
Click to expand...

This is a question BTW.

Had there been any of these stop and searches, or clashes with photographers previous to the July 7th Attacks?

I agree with your point, but also can't help but think that every little bit of protection helps. No one is going to die because they have been stopped and searched, or escorted off any premises. But people could die because the security wasn't there to prevent them from carrying out their plot. Again, I realise this may sound OTT, but the visions of pain and anguish I see in my mind when I think of the alternatives tell me otherwise.
 
Jo said:
This is a question BTW.

Had there been any of these stop and searches, or clashes with photographers previous to the July 7th Attacks?

I agree with your point, but also can't help but think that every little bit of protection helps. No one is going to die because they have been stopped and searched, or escorted off any premises. But people could die because the security wasn't there to prevent them from carrying out their plot. Again, I realise this may sound OTT, but the visions of pain and anguish I see in my mind when I think of the alternatives tell me otherwise.
Click to expand...

I actually think though Jo, that this climate does more damage than good. If you single out a community for example, and treat them as terrorists - suspect them of all sorts, and basically - rape them of their rights and liberties, you are actually playing into the very hands of those terrorists whom lurk in the shadows. You create sympathisers, and you suddenly have hundreds, thousands, perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands, of people, who start to understand or perhaps, sympathise with why the terrorists strike at our country. Then you have a much more dangerous situation, a country full of people who might not need too much convincing to carry out the very atrocities that they might never have considered, had they been given the same respect as the rest of us.

Gary.
 
EdinburghGary said:
Jo,

You are not alone. I refused to get on buses and trains for almost 18 months after July 7th. I am still scared of the tube. I will never fly again after the media coverage of September 11. I will be damned though if my fears and paranoia allow me to accept a state wide clampdown on our individual choices.

PS - I am not just scared of terrorism - I have a cupboard full of Tamiflu, I don't walk under Scaffold and well....who cares :D I kid you not !!!

Gary.
Click to expand...

Gary if you have some of that Tamiflu, can you keep some aside for me? :lol: I kid you not , I worry about it daily because I know I am in the vulnerable category. I don't want to leave my husband a widower :(


Dal said:
I agree with you about not wanting anyone to get hurt, but stopping photographers for anti-terrisom is nothing short of a joke.

Pretty much all terrorist plots that are stopped and the result of catching them taking photo's of a building but are from weeks or months of monitoring them.

Police don't want to catch a terrorist gathering intel, they want to catch them planning the attack so they have a case against them.
Click to expand...

Can you explain your second paragraph a bit better, I'm struggling with it. :)
 
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