Interesting

Steve Smith said:
If you have the right not to identify yourself (unless arrested) exercising that right cannot be a reason for arrest. An officer must have good reason that a crime has been or is likely to be carried out in order to arrest someone. You can't just be arrested in order to answer further questions.


Steve.
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Steve you're right, it's the 'good reason' part that i failed to mention in my post.
 
Unnecessary post - deleted content - I was late to the debate that moved on :)
 
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anyway it's not specifically a veil ban, it's only that a Muslim woman took it the European courts.
 
Nikon_Nick said:
To be fair, the paper driving licences were replaced by the photocards back in 1998, so even if it WAS an assumption, id say it would normally be quite a safe one seeing as its been 16 years...
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To be fair... it says on the new driving license that it's not a valid form of ID unless accompanied by the paper counterpart. Which always struck me as utterly stupid.
 
Pookeyhead said:
To be fair... it says on the new driving license that it's not a valid form of ID unless accompanied by the paper counterpart. Which always struck me as utterly stupid.
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Agreed. When they were first announced, I thought hey were a great idea but I thought it was a bit pointless whe I realised there would still be a paper licence to accompany it especially as it is bigger than the old paper ones.

That said, it's the only form of photographic ID that I carry around with me so I use it as such and I've never had an issues doing so. The only time I've ever need the paper copy was when hiring a car.
 
Wookee said:
Today, as every day, I will be riding my motorbike and as it's sunny today I'll have a black visor on. The only part of my body that will be visible is my neck....would this get me nicked in France? If I need to have a conversation with someone I'll take my helmet off, same as if I have to go to Sainsburys this should be the same for those wearing full face coverings.
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Personally, I wear an open face helmet when practicable (round town for example) or for preference, none at all (on the moor). I wear a full face lid when necessary (faster roads and longer distances) but flip the chin br up at every opportunity. The lid comes off as soon as I can get it off whenever I stop, although if it's a fuel stop, I generally just open whatever I'm wearing as far as possible to show I have no intention of hiding my identity (I also get the cash out before I go into the payment station.) If the fuel station has a helmets must be removed policy, I buy fuel elsewhere - it's a PITA taking a lid off and replacing it!

Nikon_Nick said:
To be fair, the paper driving licences were replaced by the photocards back in 1998, so even if it WAS an assumption, id say it would normally be quite a safe one seeing as its been 16 years...
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It's only since I had to reapply for a licence after surrendering it for medical reasons that I got a photo one - not moved or taken any further tests so didn't need to get a new one.
 
Nod said:
(I also get the cash out before I go into the payment station.) If the fuel station has a helmets must be removed policy, I buy fuel elsewhere - it's a PITA taking a lid off and replacing it!
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It's only a shop rule, not a law. If you have already taken the fuel and you go in offering money, they are not going to refuse it just because you have a helmet on.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
It's only a shop rule, not a law. If you have already taken the fuel and you go in offering money, they are not going to refuse it just because you have a helmet on.


Steve.
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Whilst technically correct it is exactly this kind of attitude that caused the need for a ban. It really isn't hard to show ones face and get your face on CCTV :)
 
Steve Smith said:
It's only a shop rule, not a law. If you have already taken the fuel and you go in offering money, they are not going to refuse it just because you have a helmet on.


Steve.
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Oh my local total station did. I'd been going there for 8 years every other day and they then put a sticker on the door that I missed. No where to put a helmet as the counter was jammed with tat to tempt you to buy stuff.

I offered to remove my helmet if I could put it somewhere safe - on the floor was suggested. So it wasn't until I pointed out I was offering to pay and they refused so I was leaving that they threatened me and accused me of being a thief so I had to remove my helmet. I pointed out the ridiculous situation, that I wasn't actually breaking any law and had witnesses and cctv to back me up, plus their slanderous comments. They ended up taking my money.

I went straight home, got in the car with my huge sombrero, filled up, and went into pay wearing that and a huge grin. Started the same argument, they then recognised me as I pointed out it didn't say no huge sombreros. Paid and never went back, took my £250 a month fuel bill to another garage.
 
Byker28i said:
I went straight home, got in the car with my huge sombrero, filled up, and went into pay wearing that and a huge grin. Started the same argument, they then recognised me as I pointed out it didn't say no huge sombreros.
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You think just like me!


Steve.
 
Byker28i said:
Oh my local total station did. I'd been going there for 8 years every other day and they then put a sticker on the door that I missed. No where to put a helmet as the counter was jammed with tat to tempt you to buy stuff.

I offered to remove my helmet if I could put it somewhere safe - on the floor was suggested. So it wasn't until I pointed out I was offering to pay and they refused so I was leaving that they threatened me and accused me of being a thief so I had to remove my helmet. I pointed out the ridiculous situation, that I wasn't actually breaking any law and had witnesses and cctv to back me up, plus their slanderous comments. They ended up taking my money.

I went straight home, got in the car with my huge sombrero, filled up, and went into pay wearing that and a huge grin. Started the same argument, they then recognised me as I pointed out it didn't say no huge sombreros. Paid and never went back, took my £250 a month fuel bill to another garage.
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And I wonder how much sleep they lost over that. :rolleyes:
 
viv1969 said:
And I wonder how much sleep they lost over that. :rolleyes:
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Not much, but that was a very abridged version. I actually objected to being accused of being a thief at the first conversation as I hadn't removed my helmet. No notice apart from a small sticker on the non opening door.
I followed it up with a polite letter to the management, copy to head office, pointing out the lack of notification of changes, poor signage, lack of places to put a helmet safely as an expensive piece of safety equipment (it was suggested it was left on my motorbike, or placed on the diesel covered pump).
The garage management responded with a very rude, aggressive letter, which I copied to head office, along with copy that I'd written to the local press, motorcycle forums and motorcycle news, who ran with the story.

So no they didn't lose sleep over the initial incident, but a staff member and manager did over the follow up actions.

A few years on and it's now a shell garage with all new staff.
 
Byker28i said:
..........
A few years on and it's now a shell garage with all new staff.
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Please tell me you don't think that incident triggered said change. :LOL:
 
Byker28i said:
Nah, it's been 5-6 years :) but it does mean as a shell garage I can use it to put power in the Tvr :D.
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:LOL: All's well that ends well! :)
 
neil_g said:
religious thread is religious..

on topic, can we invoke a law about fat women wearing leggings?
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especially if the leggings are white and the knickers are black (and 3 sizes too small!)
 
Just to even the scale, can we also ban fat blokes from wearing trousers which reveal an arse crack you could park a hatchback in, and any revealed gut overhang will be removed with a rusty bread knife. :) :LOL:
 
viv1969 said:
Just to even the scale, can we also ban fat blokes from wearing trousers which reveal an arse crack you could park a hatchback in, and any revealed gut overhang will be removed with a rusty bread knife. :) :LOL:
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Funny you should say that I have just seen two women at the Tour De France this morning that looked exactly that. Head adorned with a stylish pineapple hair over effect and wearing Tour De France yellow sweat tops and squeezed into undersized quarter length jeans with yellow 4 inch heels.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Funny you should say that I have just seen two women at the Tour De France this morning that looked exactly that. Head adorned with a stylish pineapple hair over effect and wearing Tour De France yellow sweat tops and squeezed into undersized quarter length jeans with yellow 4 inch heels.
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Oh dear.....put you right off your dinner?
 
Just reading about it has put me off my tea'n'bikkies and I'm not easily put off eating!!! (AND I'm fairly careful not to reveal any cleavage or naked overhang!)
 
Just wondering, would there be a medical exemption in France for covering the face, such as skin conditions or burns etc. Would it be possible to have your face partly concealed by bandages?
 
jonbeeza said:
Just wondering, would there be a medical exemption in France for covering the face, such as skin conditions or burns etc. Would it be possible to have your face partly concealed by bandages?
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Common sense would suggest that's not a problem.
 
Alan Clogwyn said:
I think we are missing something very important - European court actually makes the right decision for the first time ever!
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Who thinks, as I do, that if this was a British issue (rather than French) the decision of the court would have been entirely the opposite?
 
Quite possibly, but then would we have been surprised? Probably not!
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Just out of interest does anyone know if the KKK full head covering is illegal in the US ?
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Given the connotations, I suspect wearing it in public would amount to inciting hate crimes; but as tye organisation itself us legal, I wouldn't be surprised if it's still worn at some group funtions.
 
Yes, I wondering free speech and all that. However, the organisation has a very dubious and well evidenced history. The KKK outfit is not dissimilar to a burka really, albeit a different colour and a bit pointy on the top !
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Yes, I wondering free speech and all that. However, the organisation has a very dubious and well evidenced history. The KKK outfit is not dissimilar to a burka really, albeit a different colour and a bit pointy on the top !
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And worn entirely by choice.
 
viv1969 said:
And worn entirely by choice.
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I haven't bothered to reply until now, but this is the most important point about the "full hejab".
If we look at what is happening in Afghanistan, most of Pakistan, and the wave of violence which has spread from Syria down through Iraq, it is all down to one branch of Islam - Wahhabism. This is recognised as being the most extreme version of Islam, and the dress codes imposed on women by men, are the most Conservative. In fact the behavioural codes imposed on women by men are the most draconian to be found anywhere in the World.
The total covering/hejab does not appear in moderate Islam, it is only present in the most radical/extreme factions.
I am pleased that France have taken this step, because it is their country, and they are standing up against something which has been forced on women. I have heard radical Sunni Imams saying that democracy is incompatible with Islam. We have heard from British citizens going to fight in Syria and Iraq, that they regard the UK as an evil place, and that they wish to return and fly the black flag of Islam over the houses of parliament and Buckingham Palace.
They are not the moderate majority, they are the extreme/violent/radical minority who despise the West, our culture and our democracy. They also despise the idea that women should be regarded as equal.
Sorry for the rant, but I think that sometimes we are too tolerant, and occasionally we have to be intolerant to those who would deny liberty, democracy and freedom to others.
 
andy700 said:
Sorry for the rant, but I think that sometimes we are too tolerant, and occasionally we have to be intolerant to those who would deny liberty, democracy and freedom to others.
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So are you suggesting that in order to be intolerant to those who would deny liberty, we deny people the liberty to wear whatever they want?


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
So are you suggesting that in order to be intolerant to those who would deny liberty, we deny people the liberty to wear whatever they want?


Steve.
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I know quite a bit about Islam, the culture and religion, because for the past 25 years I have been married to someone who was brought up a Muslim.
Let me answer your point first though, because you seem to be igoring something very obvious. If you turned up at a bank or passport control, or appeared in court, or went for an inteview, would you be allowed to wear a balaclava or a hood which completely covered your face, even though you may try to argue that it is part of your "civil liberty" to do so?
So, now that we have got that little bit of common sense out of the way, we have to address why these women - who are all from one particular branch of Islam - "choose" to wear full hejab - it is because they have no choice. They may say to others that they choose to do so, but for them to refuse would mean them being ostracised by their families, face violence or maybe death.
There are people driving around North London, targeting British people who may not be dressed appropriately, holding hands, because they are not complying with what the deranged people regard as "Sharia".
The people from the Wahhabi Sunni communities, unlike those from Turkey, Iran, Algeria, do not wish to integrate into British society, because they do not agree with our culture. There is an investigation which is ongoing, looking at certain schools in the Midlands, where Sunni people have taken over the running/policy/curriculum of the schools.
Liberty to say, do, wear whatever you want, is a fine concept, but unfortunately some people use that concept to further their own agendas, be it preaching hatred against a country which they live in, or maintaining medieval beliefs to oppress women in a free society.
 
andy700 said:
Let me answer your point first though, because you seem to be igoring something very obvious. If you turned up at a bank or passport control, or appeared in court, or went for an inteview, would you be allowed to wear a balaclava or a hood which completely covered your face, even though you may try to argue that it is part of your "civil liberty" to do so?
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No - because my civil liberty to do so is curtailed by the bank's, passport office's or court's right to have their own rules once I choose to move from a public space into their private space. You are free to choose if to comply with their rules or not but non compliance will likely be met with refusal of entry.

This does not need to have a new law to enforce it. It works now under existing laws.


Steve.
 
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SarahLee said:
:wideyed: Hang on a minute.
Are you suggesting that all overweight men should go around naked from the waist down? :hungover:

:LOL:
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NO! NO NO NO NO!!!!
OK I'm done lol
 
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