is a layer mask pixel editing

Messages
9,590
Edit My Images
Yes
In Affinity photo raw develop you can use a layer mask say to alter the sky.is this not pixel editing then?
whats the difference between doing it in raw develop in Affinity as opposed to doing it after the raw development apart form your using a Tiff or Jpeg etc
 



That's an interesting set of question that will clarify a lot of
misunderstandings.


A few things to know, clarify, understand
  1. a RAW file is NOT EDITABLE

  2. a RAW file is not an image but digitalized information from
    a recorded scene… so it contains no pixels, no colour
    space, no WB…
    Only values from 1 to 255 in terms of both
    luminance and chrominance

  3. When working on a RAW file, in fact you are not working
    on a RAW file but telling whatever app how to render that
    very given RAW file (s).
  4. for that purpose, the whatever app will generate separate
    files that will reflect your tweaks. These files —stored on
    your disk in the case of Capture One and may be revisited
    at any time later on— are then read back and applied as
    YOUR interpretation of the RAW file when you publish the
    rendition. This rendition will always be an image with pixels,
    colour space, WB and what not.

  5. Affinity will not generate and/or keep files when working in
    the Develop Persona. The ultimate goal of this app is not
    to be a RAW converter but to permit access to a RAW file
    and then save a new resulting image generating a final
    and editable
    file format… Tiff or Jpeg, etc.
is this not pixel editing then?
Nope, not yet Chris!
…and will not be ever if working with a ".AFPhoto" document.





Was this of any help?
 
Last edited:
Hi Kodi ,
Yes it is a big help,but. I will need to read this a few times to sink in,thankyou
 
Ok a more direct question,if i wanted to do a layer as before to alter the sky when saved in my application and i have choice to do it in either develope mode or photo mode which would i choose and why?
 




I do use Affinity Photo a lot and with the greatest pleasure,
however, I would never develop a RAW file with it because
it does not serve my massive professional production well.

The Develop Persona will ALWAYS produce none destruc-
tive and better results as nothing is modified but the work
files.

The Photo Persona will only operate its magic on image
files — with pixels. The drawbacks of this persona are 2:
  1. the working history is lost upon save and close
  2. every additional save generates more or less nasty
    degradation and the risk of artifact due to compres-
    sion among other causes.

Good enough?
 
In Affinity photo raw develop you can use a layer mask say to alter the sky.is this not pixel editing then?


ADDENDUM

When developing RAW files, layer masks are not pixel editing.
When working on images — TIFF, JPG— then they are.

…just to clarify! :cool:
 
When is an image not an image? Surely a raw file IS an image - it's what the sensor saw. And is its structure not of pixels?

Is not everything pixel editing, until you print it out?
 
When is an image not an image?
When it is a RAW recording of what was shot at SR.
Surely a raw file IS an image - it's what the sensor saw.
Nope, it isn't! …and exactly BECAUSE it was recorded
by a sensor that is not a medium — like film— nor is it
an optical device… of any kind.
And is its structure not of pixels?
Again, NOPE!

The digital technology behind the photographic capture
is not of photographic nature
at all but digital data that
may be converted to a pixel based image by means of
a RAW file converter.

Here, it is IMPORTANT to remember that the wording is
standard in the field or industry. RAW data files are what
the name says and describes them perfectly. Image files
are pixels.
Is not everything pixel editing, until you print it out?
Sorry buddy but nope again!

Editing means to change and no RAW format file can be
edited, changed. When working on a RAW recording, one
is only tweaking the converted preview on screen, all the
tweaks are saved in sidecar files (that are themselves data)
and, in most cases, saved on disk.

When happy, one may publish the result where all the
tweaks will tell the converter HOW to convert the recorded
data in any given, chosen pixel rendition format like TIFF or
JPG etc.

NO PIXEL EXISTS UNTIL PUBLICATION, only data.

Capture One Pro is my RAW converter
and
Affinity Photo my favourite pixel editor.

Does this help?
 
Last edited:
I disagree.

A file, be it a raw, jpeg or tiff is just a collection of data.

In each case you need to know something about the data before you can extract any useful information from it.
  • In the case of a raw file, that might be the necessary demosaic algorithm so you can assign the right colour values to the stream of quantized voltages.
  • in the case of a jpeg, that might be the decompression algorithm necessary to unpack the compressed data.
In both cases though, neither file can be viewed in any form in its native state (try opening a jpeg file in notepad), but both files can rightly be considered image files in my opinion because that is the nature of the information that have encoded within them.

A key difference between raw and jpeg is the number of steps that need to be taken before the data within would represent a fair reflection of what was seen by the photographer at the time they pressed the button.
  • In the case of a raw, you need to apply a white balance, colour levels, contrast levels etc (all the things you can change in your basic raw processor).
  • In the case of a jpeg, you will have either applied these before and resaved, locking in your decisions or perhaps the camera has chosen them from you based on a preset.
But in my opinion, they are still both image files, they simply have more of less steps baked in at the point of saving.

As to what constitutes pixel editing, I think that's changed over time.
  • Pixel editing used to mean grabbing that brush tool in your favourite editor and overwriting part of the image in some way. ie. a very localised change which was then baked into the saved file so it could not be undone.
  • Then came layers in photoshop for example, this meant you could apply destructive changes, but have the option to undo some of those at a point in time in the future.
  • Then came the none-destructive editing we see today in the likes of Lightroom and Capture One.
The speed of computers today is such that, in the majority of cases, it's perfectly acceptable to apply these edits on the fly without impacting the user experience, so in said tools, all edits are simply stored as a 'to do' list dynamically applied.

In these tools, its perfectly possible to affect local pixels in the image in a very specific way that could only have been achieved previously by 'pixel editing', but there comes a point however when you need to perform such a large volume of changes (or complex changes more effectively than the tools allow), and this is when you may wish to bake in a number of those changes and save the changes into a new version of the file.

I'd personally make a distinction between changes applied in a none destructive manner in say Lightroom, and changes baked in to an image in something like Photoshop (not withstanding layers etc). I might refer to the latter as pixel editing, but it's a bit of misnomer really.
 



Then, let's agree to disagree! :cool:

I cannot argue in your language but what I can do is
make someone understand why some approach is
better than an other without stretching their
self-esteem.

I hope this translation says what I mean to say!
 



Then, let's agree to disagree! :cool:

I cannot argue in your language but what I can do is
make someone understand why some approach is
better than an other without stretching their
self-esteem.

I hope this translation says what I mean to say!

A thinly veiled insult I think. :-(

Just offering a different view. Sorry mine is not the 'correct' one.
 
A thinly veiled insult I think.
Translates by "une critique à peine voilée" from google translate.

But I read "insult" in your reply… that I would not try to do!
For what I know of you —nothing but a cartoon avatar, a
user name and not accessible profile, you may just be 6'6",
250 lbs and better trained than I… just joking!

I am at my first cup of coffee, the Sun is brilliant and I am
preparing to go to one of my favourite clients. I am in a
good mood and do not think of insulting anyone. No time
nor desire for that king of things.

Sorry if you felt insulted… that's why I wrote:
— I hope this translation says what I mean to say!
 
Translates by "une critique à peine voilée" from google translate.

But I read "insult" in your reply… that I would not try to do!
For what I know of you —nothing but a cartoon avatar, a
user name and not accessible profile, you may just be 6'6",
250 lbs and better trained than I… just joking!

I am at my first cup of coffee, the Sun is brilliant and I am
preparing to go to one of my favourite clients. I am in a
good mood and do not think of insulting anyone. No time
nor desire for that king of things.

Sorry if you felt insulted… that's why I wrote:
— I hope this translation says what I mean to say!

Ça marche

I too am at my first coffee! Have a great day with your client.
 
I think the term "pixel editing" as a derogatory term has come to stand for a kind of image editing sometimes deemed as improper, cheating, etc.. In fact the term pixel editing used in this way is technically incorrect, because that kind of "cheating" editing, which used to have to be done by manual editing at the pixel level, can now be accomplished by sophisticated smart algorithms which do not involve the user in operating at the pixel level.

So what is this "cheating" editing? It's altering the image in such a way as to remove things which spoiled the view, such as an electricity pylon behind a house, or to add things which weren't there at the time, such as adding a missing person into a group photo. Whereas global edits, such as changes in contrast, colour saturation, white balance, sharpness, etc., change the appearance of the image without introducing or removing anything which would have been seen (or not seen) at the time.

In fact this distinction can't be made watertight. What about a simple slight blurring of the whole image which removes small skin blemishes on the model's face? That's a global edit, but removes small pixel level details visible at the time. So what about removing the model's tiny wrinkles and skin blemishes with a soft focus portrait lens? Same effect, but accomplished purely optically in the camera with no post processing.

I would forget the endlessly disputable meaning of the term "pixel editing" and focus upon the effect you desire to accomplish, or wish to avoid, rather than focusing on one rather ambiguous technical method.
 
Sensors have photosites that receive light which is then encoded and recorded. If photosites are synonymous with (or translate to) pixels, then everything from capture onwards must deal with pixels, n'est pas? Regardless of whether the processing is destructive or not, or indeed whether the encoded image is in a form that can be viewed. Surely the pixel is a basic reference in the image structure right from the instant of capture?
 
Last edited:
Sensors have photosites that receive light which is then encoded and recorded. If photosites are synonymous with (or translate to) pixels, then everything from capture onwards must deal with pixels, n'est pas? Regardless of whether the processing is destructive or not, or indeed whether the encoded image is in a form that can be viewed. Surely the pixel is a basic reference in the image structure right from the instant of capture?
The pixel is a reference from the start, in the sense of being the goal of the image making process, but the translation from the conventional Bayer sensor, each photosite of which is monochromatic behind one of three colour filters, into an RGB pixel is a process which involves at least nine photosite values to make a good statistical and non-deterministic guess at the RGB pixel values, a process which different Raw converters do in different and sometimes secret ways, is a sufficiently complex translation process that the values in the Raw image file can't be regarded as pixels, or as nearly equivalent to pixels.
 
If photosites are synonymous with (or translate to) pixels, then everything from capture onwards must deal with pixels, n'est pas?

Non, pas vraiment!

Photosite refers to a sensible area that can record
both luminance and chrominance but the onboard
OS must keep record of where the data comes from
in this whole mosaic.

I say to my students that cameras have sensors of
"x" many pixels which of course is wrong but when
manufacturers are talking in terms of pixels… peo-
ple who need to understand will use (wrongly) the
same words, language.

I don't think that to cook a good omelette one has to
know the biochemistry of chives to be recommended
to use them.

A converter is an app that can understand the RAW
data and render a preview of it
Surely the pixel is a basic reference in the image structure right from the instant of capture?
I know it sounds confusing but the wrong termino-
logy is used since the beginning.

If the sensor is a mosaic, how do you call the smallest
part of a mosaic, a stone? a block, a cell? a photosite?
Certainly not a pixel. :cool:


Tu parles Français pour vrai?
 
Surely the pixel is a basic reference in the image structure right from the instant of capture?
I can't help thinking of an allusion to "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin (or a pixel)!"
A pixel is a single point in a graphic image, i.e. a physical point in a two-dimensional grid of an image display. It is a physical entity and exists at the point and time of display. Pixels refer to and are derived from "picture", whereas photosites refer to an element of a camera sensor. They (pixels) are the product of whatever algorithm is used, not an entity within.
I'd personally make a distinction between changes applied in a none destructive manner in say Lightroom, and changes baked in to an image in something like Photoshop (not withstanding layers etc). I might refer to the latter as pixel editing, but it's a bit of misnomer really.
This ^ is what most of us think of when referring to "pixel editing". You could say it's all a bit like the discussion of numbers of angels on pins, but maybe not quite as useless!
 
The pixel is a reference from the start, in the sense of being the goal of the image making process, but the translation from the conventional Bayer sensor, each photosite of which is monochromatic behind one of three colour filters, into an RGB pixel is a process which involves at least nine photosite values to make a good statistical and non-deterministic guess at the RGB pixel values, a process which different Raw converters do in different and sometimes secret ways, is a sufficiently complex translation process that the values in the Raw image file can't be regarded as pixels, or as nearly equivalent to pixels.
That's lucid. Thanks, Chris.
 
Back
Top