Is mirrorless the way forward?

[yzfmike]

I thought Sony made the sensors for Fuji, Hasselblad, and Phase One medium format cameras - maybe I'm wrong

 

[KitsuneAndy]

I thought Sony made the sensors for Fuji, Hasselblad, and Phase One medium format cameras - maybe I'm wrong

They do.

 

[twist]

I know that the sony marketing department wants everyone to believe this but Sony ore way down on the list of best sensors. Please google Panasonic Fujifilm GFX 100 then check the specs of the Panasonic S1R & while you at it do a web search for the Phase One XR. Oops I forgot about the Hasselblad's, Sony are much lower in the list than I initially thought.

See the previous posts

 

[dcash29]

Is mirrorless the way forward?
For some yes, for some no. The industry has got us just where they want us. Squabbling over which system is best or whether its the end of M4/3, the end of Aps-c, the end of Full frame? I don't think any system is really idea for every genre. Its down to personal preference and even that can be a nightmare.

 

[snerkler]

Is mirrorless the way forward?
For some yes, for some no. The industry has got us just where they want us. Squabbling over which system is best or whether its the end of M4/3, the end of Aps-c, the end of Full frame? I don't think any system is really idea for every genre. Its down to personal preference and even that can be a nightmare.

I think we’ll see globe transition from DSLR to mirrorless just like we did film to digital tbh, with DSLRs being more of a niche second hand market. Can’t see it happening for a while but if I had the cash I’d be swapping my DSLR lenses out for native mirrorless as there’ll come a point where my current lenses will suddenly drop in price I reckon.

 

[hunnymonster]

I thought Sony made the sensors for Fuji, Hasselblad, and Phase One medium format cameras - maybe I'm wrong

You also have to consider that they might specify different grades and/or sizes of sensor; the post image capture handling is likely (more.like certain) to be different... A good sensor with mediocre image processing is never going to be as good as a good sensor with good processing... depends on the glass in front... how good is the focusing... is a mediocre big one is likely to outperform even a good small one...

Way too many variables involved to say sensor by X is always the best.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Is mirrorless the way forward?
For some yes, for some no. The industry has got us just where they want us. Squabbling over which system is best or whether its the end of M4/3, the end of Aps-c, the end of Full frame? I don't think any system is really idea for every genre. Its down to personal preference and even that can be a nightmare.

I find this level of cynicism really sad. We have an amazing range of incredibly good cameras, lenses and other accessories available to us, effectively less expensive in many cases than ever before, and technology is being used to make photography easier and allow us to create ever more powerful and effective images.

If one wants access to the latest tools then mirrorless is going to become increasingly adopted, but if you're happy taking excellent pictures with a DSLR using slightly older tech then there's no reason not to continue doing so. Just as some people still use film because they prefer it - or even pour their own wet plates. Personally I love having a camera that can find and focus on an eye as it moves across the frame, allowing me to compose and take a better image than I ever could have done with a more conventional camera. I also really like having more than 14 stops of dynamic range, being able to pull detail from shadows and still keep everything looking natural.

I'll never feel that the camera is better than me - that's a conceit used to cover personal inadequacy - but it's great that they can help more and more in the creative process instead of hindering through limitations.

 

[Brazo]

I think we’ll see globe transition from DSLR to mirrorless just like we did film to digital tbh, with DSLRs being more of a niche second hand market. Can’t see it happening for a while but if I had the cash I’d be swapping my DSLR lenses out for native mirrorless as there’ll come a point where my current lenses will suddenly drop in price I reckon.

Imo the only global transition is towards full digital aka computational photography. Mirrorless is almost an irrelevant/unnecessary step on the way and whilst mirrorless is more relevant than DSLRs’ it’s simply a small step along the route to full digital. Is dslr dead? Absolutely. Mirrorless is however five minutes behind it on a long and rocky road!

 

[snerkler]

Imo the only global transition is towards full digital aka computational photography. Mirrorless is almost an irrelevant/unnecessary step on the way and whilst mirrorless is more relevant than DSLRs’ it’s simply a small step along the route to full digital. Is dslr dead? Absolutely. Mirrorless is however five minutes behind it on a long and rocky road!

I think photography as we know it will be obsolete one day yeah, which would be a shame imo as I like the whole process of photography and it's not all about the final image for me. But yes there will be a time when computer whizzes can churn out better end results than a seasoned photographer

 

[woof woof]

I've been following a thread on another site about the latest ipone and how it could potentially be a tipping point with smartphones accelerating their take over of the photographic marketplace. There's one poster who claims to be an ex Hollywood type who's just finished a project and all the vid and stills were done with his phone and the client is of course very happy. Impressive stuff if true. But... I can't get over the fact that I just hate using a phone for taking pictures. I hate holding one in front of my face and trying to keep the composition I want as it waves about as I jab at it and then there's the sun on the screen problem. I just don't like any of it apart from the fact that it's always in my pocket and available.

Until phones get nicer to use for taking pictures for me I'm not too interested and will much prefer cameras and any and all predictions of phones taking over are irrelevant for me.

DSLR's may become a niche and mirrorless may at some point be niche too and although I do expect the camera market to shrink ever more as phones and their built in lenses and clever software get better I struggle to see any alternative to a camera for me and those of us who like the experience of using a camera more than jabbing at a screen 2 feet from our face.

 

[MatBin]

I've been following a thread on another site about the latest ipone and how it could potentially be a tipping point with smartphones accelerating their take over of the photographic marketplace. There's one poster who claims to be an ex Hollywood type who's just finished a project and all the vid and stills were done with his phone and the client is of course very happy. Impressive stuff if true. But... I can't get over the fact that I just hate using a phone for taking pictures. I hate holding one in front of my face and trying to keep the composition I want as it waves about as I jab at it and then there's the sun on the screen problem. I just don't like any of it apart from the fact that it's always in my pocket and available.

Until phones get nicer to use for taking pictures for me I'm not too interested and will much prefer cameras and any and all predictions of phones taking over are irrelevant for me.

DSLR's may become a niche and mirrorless may at some point be niche too and although I do expect the camera market to shrink ever more as phones and their built in lenses and clever software get better I struggle to see any alternative to a camera for me and those of us who like the experience of using a camera more than jabbing at a screen 2 feet from our face.

Trouble is we are a shrinking market, in the same way vinyl records are a niche market, hopefull like record players there will still be enough choice.

 

[Deleted member 49428]

I think photography as we know it will be obsolete one day yeah, which would be a shame imo as I like the whole process of photography and it's not all about the final image for me. But yes there will be a time when computer whizzes can churn out better end results than a seasoned photographer

Like knitting, carving, painting and drawing. We still have analog film, wetplate and a plethora of traditional processes that may be obsolete in the social media but serve a purpose in art and hobby.

 

[f/2.8]

I've been following a thread on another site about the latest ipone and how it could potentially be a tipping point with smartphones accelerating their take over of the photographic marketplace. There's one poster who claims to be an ex Hollywood type who's just finished a project and all the vid and stills were done with his phone and the client is of course very happy. Impressive stuff if true. But... I can't get over the fact that I just hate using a phone for taking pictures. I hate holding one in front of my face and trying to keep the composition I want as it waves about as I jab at it and then there's the sun on the screen problem. I just don't like any of it apart from the fact that it's always in my pocket and available.

Until phones get nicer to use for taking pictures for me I'm not too interested and will much prefer cameras and any and all predictions of phones taking over are irrelevant for me.

DSLR's may become a niche and mirrorless may at some point be niche too and although I do expect the camera market to shrink ever more as phones and their built in lenses and clever software get better I struggle to see any alternative to a camera for me and those of us who like the experience of using a camera more than jabbing at a screen 2 feet from our face.

iPhones are already being used by professionals. A videographer at one of our recent weddings used iPhone's to shoot a fair part of the day and have seen others over the last couple of years do the same.

 

[woof woof]

Yup. I believe it but for me it's a joyless experience and actually it's worse than that, for me holding a slippery oblong device two feet in front of my face and jabbing at it is something I just don't like doing.

The vid and stills may be acceptable or even good and whilst the handling for me is awful I can imagine many not noticing or caring. It is just a completely different way of doing things.

 

[snerkler]

iPhones are already being used by professionals. A videographer at one of our recent weddings used iPhone's to shoot a fair part of the day and have seen others over the last couple of years do the same.

I can understand videos on an iphone, after all they're 4K aren't they? But what happens to a pro tog using an iphone when someone wants an A4 print or larger, are they going to be happy still?

 

[ancient_mariner]

I can understand videos on an iphone, after all they're 4K aren't they? But what happens to a pro tog using an iphone when someone wants an A4 print or larger, are they going to be happy still?

Probably to A4 but not A3.

 

[woof woof]

Just a little story on smartphone picture technical quality.

It's a few years ago now that my brother in law died and my sister wanted me to print out a picture to have on display at the service. Sadly I was out of ink so we went to asda to have it printed but the machine said the file wasn't of sufficient quality and wouldn't print it. The attendant got involved and somehow forced a print through and it looked very nice and looked even nicer framed, was on display at the service and is now on my sisters wall.

The point of all this is that pictures viewed normally can be easily good enough even when people like us think they're technically rubbish and the print machine thinks so too.

I've printed older smartphone pictures A4 and they've all been ok for normal viewing by normal people. I don't know about A3 but maybe the latest smarphone kit is good enough for that now at least in good light and when viewed normally by your average non geek. Detailed landscapes, maybe not but other stuff including people pictures and scenic stuff maybe.

 

[Brazo]

I've been following a thread on another site about the latest ipone and how it could potentially be a tipping point with smartphones accelerating their take over of the photographic marketplace. There's one poster who claims to be an ex Hollywood type who's just finished a project and all the vid and stills were done with his phone and the client is of course very happy. Impressive stuff if true. But... I can't get over the fact that I just hate using a phone for taking pictures. I hate holding one in front of my face and trying to keep the composition I want as it waves about as I jab at it and then there's the sun on the screen problem. I just don't like any of it apart from the fact that it's always in my pocket and available.

Until phones get nicer to use for taking pictures for me I'm not too interested and will much prefer cameras and any and all predictions of phones taking over are irrelevant for me.

DSLR's may become a niche and mirrorless may at some point be niche too and although I do expect the camera market to shrink ever more as phones and their built in lenses and clever software get better I struggle to see any alternative to a camera for me and those of us who like the experience of using a camera more than jabbing at a screen 2 feet from our face.

I can see a middle ground. As good as the new iPhone is there are lots of situations where it’s output will be worse than very poor.

I can see a chunky compact camera with 2-3 one inch sensors inside and a silly looking lens cluster on the front with 3-4 lens of different focal lengths. Perhaps even this lens cluster could be interchangeable. Using the combination of lenses and sensors and high end processing power I believe this would match the quality we are now used to.
Of course it’s just a clunky prototype and in time that would be shrunk down to smart phone size and eventually a chip behind our eyes

 

[MatBin]

I can see a middle ground. As good as the new iPhone is there are lots of situations where it’s output will be worse than very poor.

I can see a chunky compact camera with 2-3 one inch sensors inside and a silly looking lens cluster on the front with 3-4 lens of different focal lengths. Perhaps even this lens cluster could be interchangeable. Using the combination of lenses and sensors and high end processing power I believe this would match the quality we are now used to.
Of course it’s just a clunky prototype and in time that would be shrunk down to smart phone size and eventually a chip behind our eyes

Not sure I'm up for chips behind my eyes, in front sounds ok, especially with fish
Part of the problem is going to be camera shake, for that a standard camera is much more holdable but in time I guess the technology will overcome that.

 

[4tea2]

I was never looking for the perfect answer. Really seeking to listen to the everyone's thoughts and help crystallize my feelings about possibly moving to the mirrorless Nikon Z6.

Clearly technology is always developing. What maybe the right decision today does not guarantee that it will always be the best. The bottom line is that selecting a camera/system is very much a personal decision. And for me the move to the Z6 feels right.

 

[snerkler]

I was never looking for the perfect answer. Really seeking to listen to the everyone's thoughts and help crystallize my feelings about possibly moving to the mirrorless Nikon Z6.

Clearly technology is always developing. What maybe the right decision today does not guarantee that it will always be the best. The bottom line is that selecting a camera/system is very much a personal decision. And for me the move to the Z6 feels right.

The Z6 is a great camera, there’s a Nikon Z6/7 thread if you have any questions about the system

 

[the black fox]

Wasnt there a phone announced yesterday that shoots at around 40mp and can be interpolated to produce a 100mp image

 

[woof woof]

I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me

There's a blog I read by a long time photo guy who uses film and FF and has been a big user of MFT but he's recently sold all his MFT gear and shifted to the latest iPhone. All well and good but even at small screen sizes I can see issues that I'm sure wouldn't be there with MFT.

Here...

http://pindelski.org/Photography/

 

[ancient_mariner]

Wasnt there a phone announced yesterday that shoots at around 40mp and can be interpolated to produce a 100mp image

Xaiomi Mi10 - 108mp main camera, and AFAIK that's not interpolated.

 

[MitchV]

I would appreciate some view on my current thoughts on future kit purchases. I'm currently a Nikon D7000 owner and would like to move to full frame. My dilemma is should I go mirrorless with something like the Z6 or stick with SLR?

My feeling is to go with the Z6 and grow with that range. The option of picking up some second hand FX lenses is open to me while waiting for the Z range to develop.

How does this sound? Or am I still jumping to soon?

Any comments much appreciated.

Cheers
John

I appreciate it's been some time since you posted this but I'm interested in what camera did you go for in the end. I also have a D7000 and am looking to upgrade to either D780 or Z6 II. Lots of interesting posts on your thread. Personally I'm interested in landscape, travel and some action shots of my dogs. My concern with the Z series is the cost of the lenses compared with the F Mount. I hope they'll come down but plenty of Nikon and other branded F mount around at competitive prices.

Size is not a major deciding factor, I like the idea of a smaller body/lens combination although I have big hands so FF DSLR is not a problem if it's the right camera for what I want. Am not in the slightest bit interested in Video so that's not a factor. However, development does seem to be favouring the ML so maybe that's the way to go.

Decisions, Decisions

 

[4tea2]

I appreciate it's been some time since you posted this but I'm interested in what camera did you go for in the end. I also have a D7000 and am looking to upgrade to either D780 or Z6 II. Lots of interesting posts on your thread. Personally I'm interested in landscape, travel and some action shots of my dogs. My concern with the Z series is the cost of the lenses compared with the F Mount. I hope they'll come down but plenty of Nikon and other branded F mount around at competitive prices.

Size is not a major deciding factor, I like the idea of a smaller body/lens combination although I have big hands so FF DSLR is not a problem if it's the right camera for what I want. Am not in the slightest bit interested in Video so that's not a factor. However, development does seem to be favouring the ML so maybe that's the way to go.

Decisions, Decisions

I did go mirror-less with the purchase of the Z6. I'm very happy with the Z6, yes there are niggles..... single card slot, lack of add on vertical grip, but nothing is perfect.

The key factor that I would suggest a potential buyer considers is weight. Yes the body is lighter than the equivalent DSLR, but like all full frame cameras the weight comes from the lenses.

If I was buying now then I would stick with the Nikons and buy a Z6ii.

One final point, if you do have really big hands then I would try to find somewhere that will let you try handling one.

 

[MitchV]

Many thanks for the update. The Z6ii addresses one of your concerns with the added card slot so am leaning that way at the moment. I do have a vertical grip on my D7000 but don't use it much so it wouldn't be a big loss.

I agree with the advice on handling one but difficult at the moment as most shops are closed.

Knowing me it will be a snap decision when I have the money! however all of these cameras are excellent, all have their pro's and con's and which ever one I end up with I'm sure there will be some features I'll be delighted with and some I'll have to accept as a compromise.

 

[AdamSi]

I really love my Nikon Z7, I changed a D850 for a Z7 and D500

The Z7 is not great like the D500 for birds in flight but its certainly not unusable, also love it for static subjects and finding high ISO is actually really good IMHO for what I have been taking lately, pairs really nice with the Nikon 500mm PF for wildlife and happily take takes the TC14e III teleconverter nicely, the 24-70 F4 lens is really good value for money too.

 

[MitchV]

I really love my Nikon Z7, I changed a D850 for a Z7 and D500

The Z7 is not great like the D500 for birds in flight but its certainly not unusable, also love it for static subjects and finding high ISO is actually really good IMHO for what I have been taking lately, pairs really nice with the Nikon 500mm PF for wildlife and happily take takes the TC14e III teleconverter nicely, the 24-70 F4 lens is really good value for money too.

Out of interest what's the issue with birds in flight and the Z7?. I would like to use the camera for action shots of my dog so if there's a weakness around shooting moving subjects then maybe I would be better going down the dslr route.

 

[AdamSi]

Out of interest what's the issue with birds in flight and the Z7?. I would like to use the camera for action shots of my dog so if there's a weakness around shooting moving subjects then maybe I would be better going down the dslr route.

I think once you have used a D500 or similar nothing will feel as good, there is nothing wrong but you do not get no where as many keepers but when you do that 45mp sensor really shines ! I would guess the D500 with a running dog towards you might get 7/10 bang on maybe even more the Z7 would be closer to 4 again just a guess, bear in mind it was never meant as a wildlife fast moving subject camera and firmware version 3 makes it a lot better than the release firmware, I only intend to change it for a Z7 II at some point but no time soon, its an amazing camera for it size in my opinion but the D500 is still amazingly good as fast moving birds in flight etc but half the resolution and not as good at higher ISO as the z7

 

[robj20]

Absolutely love my A7C I couldn't go back to a DSLR. It's light and small, but has the best AF I've ever experienced it feels like cheating it tracks so well.
I've gone from having a DSLR and a compact to just having the one camera.
I can stick a 35mm on it and put it in my pocket, couldn't do that with even a crop sensor DSLR never mind a full frame.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Cameras are just tools for Photographers.
There's is by now no doubt at all, that mirrorless cameras are in the process of replacing the DSLR
In much the same way that the Slr replaced the Rangefinder and twin lens reflex.

At the family camera level the Phone has almost completely replaced the compact.

Technology does not run backwards, all research development and new production is focused completel on mirrorless cameras..

It is pure fantasy and wishful thinking, to supposed otherwise.

However there will be sufficient working DSLR,s around to cater for those with a nostalgic need for them
Long after production has ceased. Just as there is for all other historic camera types.

 

[robj20]

I certainly wouldn't say they are only a tool, otherwise you wouldn't be able to get them in different colours for instance. I see mine as a toy to satisfy a hobby much the same as an expensive mountain bike.
But yes I agree things move forward therefore DSLR is on the out mirrorless is the future.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I certainly wouldn't say they are only a tool, otherwise you wouldn't be able to get them in different colours for instance. I see mine as a toy to satisfy a hobby much the same as an expensive mountain bike.
But yes I agree things move forward therefore DSLR is on the out mirrorless is the future.

Tools can be as beautiful as you like. I find all my woodworking tools have qualities far beyond just being tools.
Likewise cameras have their own appeal and aesthetic way beyond their function. But I would never buy one for those atributes alone.
Marketing considerations go far beyond function. And dig far into our psyche.

But it is the technology that really appeals to me.

 

[Fstop Jack]

Mirrorless are certainly technologically very advanced. Although I have not used a mirrorless body, IBIS sounds very promising, particularly as a way of "upgrading" lenses with no VR (as a Nikon shooter I am principally thinking of good value lenses such as the 300mm f/4 D here)