Is Photography "elitist" ?

C

coolershaka

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Hello,

I've always had a great interest photography as an art form, and very much wanted to take a deeper interest. However I felt I could never "get into it" as such due to the high cost of equipment and my experiences meeting Photography and other Visual Arts students at university.

I studied for my degree in Manchester (and later in Paris and London), and met a number of visual arts and photography students during my studies. Many got into it as their parents were either professional photographers and artists or art dealers and gallery owners, and it seemed a logical step for them. Very few rented equipment from the University, having a decent set of tools for themselves. Only one that I met could be regarded as coming from a "working class" background.

Also, many of the photos that used to be displayed in the graduate exhibitions were often of seemingly glamorous places abroad that I couldn't afford to visit myself until several years later. It made me think at the time that professional Photography, Sculpture and Painting were quite "elitist" careers, in the same way as one often regards being a professional tennis player or barrister. It was only later that I realised that I could be wrong about this.

Does anyone else have an opinion about this, or similar experiences?
 
To me, you need some artistic talent. Yes, some of it can be taught, some of it can be down to having fancy equipment, but at the end of the day "talent" wins (in my eyes anyway).

I, and am sure many other members too, are from a working class background. I never had anything given to me on a plate. So people swanning around giving the attitude they are better than you gets my goat. I have come across people like this so i know what you mean.

I have always been artistic, but due to a few silly mistakes in my life, have never made the most of it. I think if you are good enough, it will show. Whether you have a degree or o-levels, an expensive dslr or a compact, quality always shows through....mini rant over :)
 
I think some people are born with artistic talent that they can apply to any art form; but you can acquire that talent through learning as well. The end result may appeal to different markets, but there are plenty of stunning images on this site from all kinds of people just to prove that point!
Nothing wrong with being a "journeyman" - plenty wrong with being an elitist, snobbish pillock.
 
I don't think that's what the OP is saying. He is saying that in his experience, at least at degree and further education level. The people tends to be from privileged background, and not many from working class.
 
students tend to feel they are better than everyone else, whether it is the son of lord wotsit at cambridge who thinks breeding is everything or tom smith at the local poly who is agittating(sp) for the revolution because he is morally superior. a psychology (sp? maybe i should have went to college for spelling!) student would no doubt be able to give us a 2 hour monlogue on why.
just my 2 cents.
pbh
 
I don't think photography in itself is anything. Those who practice it can be any character trait you care to imagine.

The only one I would question is the one which uses "art" as an excuse to make something appear more than what it actually is. A bit like painting a canvas white and saying it represents the meaning of life or something, you know what I mean :p
 
Don't be soft. Anyone can buy a camera with full manual controls for £150 now. If you're work is good enough and you get the right exposure you can be in a gallery. Who ever said you need to travel to far off locations to take the best photos? I know a taxi cab driver who documented 24 hours in Liverpool and had it exhibited. Its not about the kit, its not about where you go, its about what *you* photograph. You could get a £20 Holga and document life on the streets in Swindon. If you're a good photographer you'll get good photographs.
 
Phil T said:
I think some people are born with artistic talent that they can apply to any art form; but you can acquire that talent through learning as well. The end result may appeal to different markets, but there are plenty of stunning images on this site from all kinds of people just to prove that point!
Nothing wrong with being a "journeyman" - plenty wrong with being an elitist, snobbish pillock.
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Quite agree Phil. The problem is, a lot of competition judges (NOT ALL) fall into the latter classification. One reason I gave up membership of the club I belonged to. One was 'expected' to enter competitions. It didn't help that a Licentiate of the RPS was in the 'beginner' class!

John :bonk:
 
Who caires about spelling on a fourum . If it bothers me I use M'soft Word, and a spell check, then cut and paste! If that's cheating then so is burning and doging in the darkroom or in P/Sh. Isn't it?
 
Spotshot said:
Who caires about spelling on a fourum . If it bothers me I use M'soft Word, and a spell check, then cut and paste! If that's cheating then so is burning and doging in the darkroom or in P/Sh. Isn't it?
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I do actually. Its very annoying reading a post full of typos. OSX has a built in spell checker that's system wide in every application. I'm sure Firefox has a spell checker now and you can get addons to do it easily enough.
 
Elitism exists in all systems set up by mankind. Just my take on it.

By our nature we put things in order by taste, style,cost, strength etc. etc.

It is quite diffecult to separate subject from quality in photography and I think that leads to a form of elitism that Pete mentions.

The other form is based on the jewelry we wear round our necks, bigger, better, faster and so on.

You cannot avoid it but you can see it for what it is and make informed judgements for yourself.

Luckily money doesn't (that often) bear fruit in our game until the pudding (talent) has been proven.

Personally I really try to SEE the point of an image, long before I allow the subject to speak to me. This may be wrong but it does stop me from giving the photographer the credit for being on a beach during a glorious sunset when I am trying to see the quality and point of his/her work.

Hope that makes sense:thinking:.
 
In the olden days, late 70s, my Career's tutor asked me what I wanted to do after leaving school - what career did I want (he asked)

"Photographer" I answered quickly

London is where you need to go (he said) 3-year course about £10,000 per year (adding) your parents can't afford that can they (rhetorical) so forget it

Oh (says I) and I've been a bum ever since

Cos it was all gonads even then, but it certainly did seem elitist at the time to us poor northern folk
 
petemc said:
Don't be soft. Anyone can buy a camera with full manual controls for £150 now. If you're work is good enough and you get the right exposure you can be in a gallery. Who ever said you need to travel to far off locations to take the best photos? I know a taxi cab driver who documented 24 hours in Liverpool and had it exhibited. Its not about the kit, its not about where you go, its about what *you* photograph. You could get a £20 Holga and document life on the streets in Swindon. If you're a good photographer you'll get good photographs.
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:agree:

As Pete rightly said, it's not what you've got, it's what you do with it that counts (I'm sure I've heard that before somewhere :thinking: :LOL:). There is a web site of someone (sorry, can't remember the name) who has some of the most stunning shots I've ever seen - all taken with a cheap point n shoot camera. It's only elitist if you strive to get the most expensive equipment.
 
petemc said:
I do actually. Its very annoying reading a post full of typos. OSX has a built in spell checker that's system wide in every application. I'm sure Firefox has a spell checker now and you can get addons to do it easily enough.
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I find that somewhat elitist as it happens. Not that I could care less though in reality but a point to be made.

My spelling is impeccable. My typing is just short of abysmal.
So typos are somewhat frequent depending on mood/time/bothered available.

I am learning how to use both elbows on the ketboard thoug hso improvements are on the way.:p
 
Funny - but a pal of mine won't use anything less than his Canon MK1 d 603 md 330 thehe snsnsu 505 II or whatever the damn thing's called - the 16mp one!

He says everything else is crap by comparison (he's a wedding pro, produces nice albums of 10x8s!!! - like you NEED 16mp for that)

Yet we went to see an exhibition by a chap some time ago with a pin-hole camera made from a shoebox - and he was blown away by the images!

Be truthful - had you been going to take some shots with your shoe-box and some chap nearby has the Canon ..... 16mp thing - wouldn't you feel inferior?

Or is this a male - size matters - thing?
 
Ratty said:
I find that somewhat elitist as it happens. Not that I could care less though in reality but a point to be made.
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Strange. I wouldn't call it elitist at all. Its just good manors to take your time and make sure your post makes sense. Why not go the whole hog and forget about punctuation and everything. I've been on sites that have nothing but text talk and its very annoying.

gr8 foto m8 rly top wrk
 
DiddyDave said:
Be truthful - had you been going to take some shots with your shoe-box and some chap nearby has the Canon ..... 16mp thing - wouldn't you feel inferior?
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Yes I would. Particularly in the knowledge that his pics were almost certainly going to be better than mine !









(assuming he's the one with the shoe-box )
 
DiddyDave said:
soz mate

But if we're being picky...

"I've been on sites that have nothing but text talk and its very annoying."

should be... it's

surely
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Said the guy who didn't capitalise his first letters on sentences :p You missed that i said manors not manners to by the way.
 
Ah who gives a monkey's whether it's elitist or not? If you like taking photos keep taking them. I don't drink much, don't smoke, don't have a flash car and don't have expensive overseas holidays so why not spend my spare cash on the things I like such as photography (and the wife ;) ).

Is photography in itself elitist or is it simply those who use photography as a means to publish a lifestyle ('well you simply must go to the Azores, the scenery is breath-taking')? If that's the case then I, like my father, am certainly working class as I love meandering through the old industrial heartland of Sheffield of a Sunday morning. Am I a great photographer? No, not at all - some of my photos are (I think) pretty good whereas many are just dull and don't deserve an audience.

I sometimes find myself looking at flickr and saying 'don't think much of that photo much' but my opinion doesn't really count - so long as the person taking it enjoyed it and their audience appreciated it then that's what photography is about. Call it art if you must.

Taking a sharp turn for a moment I think of myself fairly un-elite. I love talking about photography with colleagues, one of whom is, I believe, fantastic and whips a lot of your asses - hehe. My kit is modest and my audience is friends and family.

But then again I've had a glass of wine or two so my opinion may be rubbish :D
 
petemc said:
Strange. I wouldn't call it elitist at all.
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I would.
You said: Its very annoying reading a post full of typos.
Typos are nothing to do with bad manners or being too lazy to take your time.
The same way as bad spelling doesn't necessarily either.
I know a fair few people who are dyslexic and would find both elitisms rather offensive !


Its just good manors to take your time and make sure your post makes sense. Why not go the whole hog and forget about punctuation and everything. I've been on sites that have nothing but text talk and its very annoying.
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Not anywhere near to the point I was making though is it.
Making sense doesn't mean every single sentence has to be perfect. Making sense has far more to do with the grammar rather than spelling.
Your=you're. Their=there=they're etc.. etc...
You see many examples of this here and everywhere.
Easier to just make it make sense yourself than run after them to tell them of their errors. (even though I want to really).

I don't even like text speak when I'm typing texts so although I'm arguing some points it's not because I disagree with your motives.
 
unclerichy said:
I love talking about photography with colleagues, one of whom is, I believe, fantastic and whips a lot of your asses - hehe.
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Sounds like a dare to me. Sign him up :D

As for the spelling elitist stuff, bit off topic so may as well end that there.
 
unclerichy said:
*snip*
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Well said. I don't care if its elitist at all to be honest. I love taking photographs, and everything that comes with photography, as well as sharing my photographs with frinds and family. I don't go out much, I don't own a car or have a mortgage so I spend much of my money on camera equipment. Does it make me a better photographer owning more equipment? Not necessarily, but it does give me pleasure, and why shouldn't I spend money on my hobby and lifestyle?

With regards to less 'working class' people studying art, photography and sculpture etc at university, that's probably more to family tradition and financial situation. Studying fine art with a view to take it up as a career can be very risky with not a huge amount of jobs available. This in turn means that people from wealthier backgrounds tend to go in for it as they have more financial support if it goes wrong, ie they see it as less of a risk.

And for the spelling issue, yes its off topic, an no it has nothing to do with elitism. It only takes a minutes to skim read what you have typed before posting it to ensure it's not full of fault. I don't expect everyone to have no mistakes ever, but it does get annoying when you see posts riddled with faults.
 
Raymond Lin said:
I don't think that's what the OP is saying. He is saying that in his experience, at least at degree and further education level. The people tends to be from privileged background, and not many from working class.
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Isn't the idea of photography as a degree subject relatively recent though? Traditionally the way into a photographic career (as opposed to a hobby) was to apprentice oneself to a local pro for a number of years and learn the ropes by doing the ropes, starting with sweeping the floor and moving the lights around. As a route it provided access to knowledge, training, the use of high quality equipment and business know-how.

When did the first photographic degree course, rather than an HND or similar sandwich course, start? I'd guess within the past 20 years or so but could be wrong.
 
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