Beginner Iso not part of exposure triangle AP

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this from Andy Westlake in response to forum chat about iso article in jan 2018 edition of AP

Clearly there's still a lot of misunderstanding here.

The technical definition of 'exposure' is purely about how much light reaches the sensor, which means that it's a function of shutter speed and aperture alone. Open the aperture wider, or extend the shutter speed, and the exposure is increased. Keep the shutter open for double the time and halve the aperture area, and the exposure stays the same, so 1/30sec at f/5.6 gives the same exposure as 1/60sec at f/4. This is true regardless of the ISO you choose to set on your camera, be it ISO 100 or ISO 100,000. It simply doesn't matter if you prefer to think differently - this is the technically correct definition.

The ISO setting then defines how bright the image will be for any given exposure. The higher the ISO, the brighter the image, so 1/60sec at f/4 and ISO 200 generates a brighter image compared to 1/60sec at f/4 and ISO 100, despite both having the same exposure. However, in-camera ISO settings can only be described with regard to the camera's JPEG processing. Raw files don't have any inherent ISO rating of their own, because they're not visually-meaningful images and require demosaicing, white balancing and gamma correction before they become actual photographs. Raw files can be quite happily developed to a wide range of different brightnesses and therefore ISOs, especially given the huge dynamic range of modern digital sensors.

Another myth is that ISO is intrinsically linked to in-camera electronic amplification of the signal from the sensor to increase its 'sensitivity'. In reality, the camera manufacturer's image processing can use any combination of hardware gain and mathematical manipulation to achieve the desired JPEG image brightness. Many in-camera dynamic-range expansion systems work by changing this balance, as excessive gain can irretrievably clip highlights.

Because ISO is so difficult to pin down, the current standard (ISO12232:2006) contains no fewer than five different definitions of ISO, which can potentially all give different answers. The most-used is probably 'Standard Output Sensitivity', which in effect states that an 18% grey card should be rendered as a mid-grey in the camera's JPEG output - no more, no less. But once you turn on adaptive dynamic-range balancing systems like Canon's Auto Lighting Optimiser, Nikon's Adaptive D-Lighting or Sony's Dynamic Range Optimiser, even this definition stops working and you're left with only one choice, 'Recommended Exposure Index', which broadly translates as 'Use this ISO and your images will look right'.

Increased noise at high ISO settings doesn't come as a result of extra processing of the signal by the camera. Instead, it simply reflects the fact that to get an image of a standard brightness, you use a lower exposure at high ISO. So if you're shooting at ISO 1600, you'll have used 16 times less light to make your image compared to shooting at ISO 100. But the less light you use, the higher the intrinsic 'shot noise' within the light itself turns out to be: this simply reflects the quantum or particulate nature of light. (Some 'read noise' is also introduced by the electronics along the way, but on modern cameras it's very low indeed.)

Incidentally, one logical consequence of all this is that the 'Exposure' slider in Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom is incorrectly labelled - it should really be 'ISO', as on some other raw converters.

Made me rethink things a bit deeper
 
I agree. Who cares as long as "you" understand what you're trying to do.
 
I know Phil V was saying that the well prescibed book Understanding Exposure wasnt that.wonder if he’ll comment here
 
Helps me to think of the variables I can control as a triangle and shoot better pictures. It’s possible to over think what is intended to be a simple model with practical application?
 
So it's not a triangle then.
Just a straight line.

If you are not going to pursue your photography to any great depth, it doesn't hurt to think of ISO as a part of exposure but once you have learnt something, it can be very hard to unlearn it. Then when you need to understand just the light going into the camera it becomes impossible to not include ISO. I have had to retrain a number of digital photographers who found film photography impossible for this very reason.
 
Just a straight line.

If you are not going to pursue your photography to any great depth, it doesn't hurt to think of ISO as a part of exposure but once you have learnt something, it can be very hard to unlearn it. Then when you need to understand just the light going into the camera it becomes impossible to not include ISO. I have had to retrain a number of digital photographers who found film photography impossible for this very reason.

Surely with film you have iso options too, just a narrower range? My old hasselblad (digital) is only really effective up to 800 so similar constraint to film? It’s a constraint to work within, doesn’t cause me a problem of understanding. Maybe I’m missing the point.
 
Sure, film has an ISO rating but you take no notice of it once you load the film into the camera. Your exposure considerations are simply shutter speed and aperture and, if in a studio, lighting. It would make more sense to teach new photographers an exposure triangle consisting of shutter speed, aperture and light as those are the three you need to control.
 
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Sure, film has an ISO rating but you take no notice of it once you load the film into the camera. .
I think know what you mean, but once you put a film into a camera you're stuck with that ISO and can only work by varying the aperture, shutter speed or amount of available light (for the sake of simplicity let's not get into film exposure latitude and muddy the waters!). You don't really forget about it, as it's one of the constraints you have to consider.

With digital there's the option to change the ISO significantly for each individual shot, thus giving a third variable rather than a relatively fixed constraint (or a 4th if we count increasing or decreasing the amount of light available to the lens before shutter speed and aperture come into play). Whether or not that amounts to an 'exposure' triangle is probably down to terminology, perhaps a 'light control and processing triangle' might be a better description for digital cameras?
 
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In photography, exposure is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminancetimes the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor, as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance. Exposure is measured in lux seconds, and can be computed from exposure value (EV) and scene luminance in a specified region.

In photographic jargon, an exposure is a single shutter cycle. For example: a long exposure refers to a single, protracted shutter cycle to capture enough low-intensity light, whereas a multiple exposure involves a series of relatively brief shutter cycles; effectively layering a series of photographs in one image. For the same film speed, the accumulated photometric exposure (Hv) should be similar in both cases.

Copied from wilki
 
It is part of the overall process of obtaining the final image, but is it part of the EXPOSURE?

This, of course, depends on what you define as exposure. To many, it is the total amount of light falling on the recording device. And that depends on the incoming light, lens aperture and length of exposure (shutter speed). ISO has zero effect on the number of photons registered by a particular sensor photo-site.

However, if you define exposure as the final value recorded in response to the light, then yes, you can count ISO in.

I found this in a search (of google) and i agree its how you define Exposure,hence 2 ways of looking at it .i have always looked at it as the 2nd way and never thought about it as in the 1st example but its clear now though.
 
Andy Westlake has put this about before, when he was on website DPReview. It's interesting, but not helpful in a practical sense and is mainly semantics.

'Exposure' (to light) only involves shutter speed and lens aperture. Only those two controls adjust how much light (photons) the sensor receives. But what we're really concerned with here is the brightness of the final image, and to get that right a third element is needed - a process that adjusts the brightness of the light signal received so it looks right - and we call it ISO.* Shutter speed and aperture alone are not enough, we need ISO - so it's a triangle.

*You can argue the toss about what ISO actually means, the processes manufacturers use and how and when they're applied (eg 'ISO-invariant' sensors), and how it relates to the ISO of film and so on. And while that can be interesting too on a technical/scientific level, it's not important in practise. ISO has exactly the same effect on the brightness of the final image as shutter speed and aperture do, and the end result is the same.
 
Andy Westlake has put this about before, when he was on website DPReview. It's interesting, but not helpful in a practical sense and is mainly semantics.

'Exposure' (to light) only involves shutter speed and lens aperture. Only those two controls adjust how much light (photons) the sensor receives. But what we're really concerned with here is the brightness of the final image, and to get that right a third element is needed - a process that adjusts the brightness of the light signal received so it looks right - and we call it ISO.* Shutter speed and aperture alone are not enough, we need ISO - so it's a triangle.

*You can argue the toss about what ISO actually means, the processes manufacturers use and how and when they're applied (eg 'ISO-invariant' sensors), and how it relates to the ISO of film and so on. And while that can be interesting too on a technical/scientific level, it's not important in practise. ISO has exactly the same effect on the brightness of the final image as shutter speed and aperture do, and the end result is the same.

To put it another way, is ISO anything to do with how much light the sensor is exposed to? No, it's not. But without ISO adjustment (or whatever you want to call it) our images would be hopelessly dark.

So, is ISO an essential part of adjusting image brightness to the correct level, alongside shutter speed and aperture? Yes. So it's a triangle.
 
Andy Westlake has put this about before, when he was on website DPReview. It's interesting, but not helpful in a practical sense and is mainly semantics.

'Exposure' (to light) only involves shutter speed and lens aperture. Only those two controls adjust how much light (photons) the sensor receives. But what we're really concerned with here is the brightness of the final image, and to get that right a third element is needed - a process that adjusts the brightness of the light signal received so it looks right - and we call it ISO.* Shutter speed and aperture alone are not enough, we need ISO - so it's a triangle.

*You can argue the toss about what ISO actually means, the processes manufacturers use and how and when they're applied (eg 'ISO-invariant' sensors), and how it relates to the ISO of film and so on. And while that can be interesting too on a technical/scientific level, it's not important in practise. ISO has exactly the same effect on the brightness of the final image as shutter speed and aperture do, and the end result is the same.

Well put. My thoughts exactly.
 
To put it another way, is ISO anything to do with how much light the sensor is exposed to? No, it's not. But without ISO adjustment (or whatever you want to call it) our images would be hopelessly dark.

So, is ISO an essential part of adjusting image brightness to the correct level, alongside shutter speed and aperture? Yes. So it's a triangle.
Yes this is the explanation that shows its how you interpret the word exposure.
And yes i can see that iso is part of the final image,when i 1st read the ap piece i was confused but i see if he was talking pure exposure then it doesnt involve iso .
Thanks for clarifying and that could be the last word on this thread lol
 
If you are not going to pursue your photography to any great depth, it doesn't hurt to think of ISO as a part of exposure but once you have learnt something, it can be very hard to unlearn it. Then when you need to understand just the light going into the camera it becomes impossible to not include ISO. I have had to retrain a number of digital photographers who found film photography impossible for this very reason.
That works the other way too, though. Those of us brought up using (say) aperture priority mode in the film era tend to regard the useful 'auto ISO with manual shutter speed and aperture' mode as dangerous witchcraft.
 




What ever… in the digital world too,
it is still a triangle to me!
 
Andy Westlake has put this about before, when he was on website DPReview. It's interesting, but not helpful in a practical sense and is mainly semantics.

'Exposure' (to light) only involves shutter speed and lens aperture. Only those two controls adjust how much light (photons) the sensor receives. But what we're really concerned with here is the brightness of the final image, and to get that right a third element is needed - a process that adjusts the brightness of the light signal received so it looks right - and we call it ISO.* Shutter speed and aperture alone are not enough, we need ISO - so it's a triangle.

*You can argue the toss about what ISO actually means, the processes manufacturers use and how and when they're applied (eg 'ISO-invariant' sensors), and how it relates to the ISO of film and so on. And while that can be interesting too on a technical/scientific level, it's not important in practise. ISO has exactly the same effect on the brightness of the final image as shutter speed and aperture do, and the end result is the same.


Good common sense explanation from Richard - as always! Although I'm not quite so sure about his understanding of the practice / practise dichotomy.......;)
 
To put it another way, is ISO anything to do with how much light the sensor is exposed to? No, it's not. But without ISO adjustment (or whatever you want to call it) our images would be hopelessly dark.

So, is ISO an essential part of adjusting image brightness to the correct level, alongside shutter speed and aperture? Yes. So it's a triangle.
So it is a brightness triangle. Not an exposure triangle.
 
Good common sense explanation from Richard - as always! Although I'm not quite so sure about his understanding of the practice / practise dichotomy.......;)

Still practizing Jerry :D

I liked Kodiak's answer best.
 
Like filling a bucket with water.
Iso is like the depth to which you want to fill it...
aperture is the flow rate of the water out of the tap.
and shutter speed is how long the tap needs to be turned on to fill it to the line.
in all cases the line represents the total light needed to achieve a correct (intended) exposure.

However when ever you move the line away from the native sensitivity of the sensor there are consequences.
especially in terms of Noise levels and the Tonal range it is possible to capture.

An ISO invariant sensor is one where you can can move the line with in reason, and with out undue quality problems.
 
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Like filling a bucket with water.
Iso is like the depth to which you want to fill it...
aperture is the flow rate of the water out of the tap.
and shutter speed is how long the tap needs to be turned on to fill it to the line.
in all cases the line represents the total light needed to achieve a correct (intended) exposure.

And the ambient light level is the water pressure ;)

However when ever you move the line away from the native sensitivity of the sensor there are consequences.
especially in terms of Noise levels and the Tonal range it is possible to capture.

Yes, there are other factors to consider when changing ISO apart from brightness, just as there are with shutter speed and aperture adjustments.

An ISO invariant sensor is one where you can can move the line with in reason, and with out undue quality problems.

Not quite. ISO invariant sensors simply allow you to adjust brightness in post processing with no more downsides than if done at the point of capture by changing ISO. But the downsides are still 100% there.
 
So it's not a triangle then.
Or is it only a triangle when I shoot film? :confused:

It's always been a triangle, but the third variable is (always was) actually EV and not ISO. With film ISO isn't really a variable either; you pick the film speed/sensitivity and thereafter it is fixed... unless you push or pull the processing. And the choice of using a higher ISO film to start with is an offset for an expected lower EV, with the same negative effect (more noise, coarser/larger/more obvious grain).

The ISO "variable" with digital is more akin to push/pull processing, and it has the same types of side effects... the digital sensor only has one level of sensitivity/reactivity to light, it's always fixed.

EDIT: EV is also the basis of the "sunny 16 rule" and Ansel Adam's "zone system." And because the variable is actually EV, you can use a higher ISO in brighter light/higher EV with less penalty (i.e. to get an even higher SS).
 
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And the ambient light level is the water pressure ;)

Ah, so is night photography akin to experiencing a drought then? ;) Oh, and is light painting like a water fight? :D

You're right, I'm not taking this whole thing very seriously am I? :LOL:
 
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