Junior footy tournament question?

redmonkee

redmonkee

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PHILIP
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I've been asked by a guy I know through Farsley AFC if I fancy shooting a under 7's tournament held by Pudsey Juniors.

I once did some free shots of the junior's when they were mascots at a Farsley match and the team coach contacted the guy at Farsley to ask me if i'd be willing to shoot this upcoming tournament this weekend.

Now I'm not getting paid for this but obviously I get any money I make from print sales, which hopefully could be good as there are 20 teams attending on the day.

Now the guy at Farsley seems to think it would be good on my part to make a donation to Pudsey Juniors for letting me shoot the tournament. What do you think I should do? Make a fixed donation, base donation on percentage of sales, or not donate.
 
Hi Phil

A % of sales sounds fair to me, if the parents are aware it may encourage more sales.

I recently did an action portrait shoot at my boys' rugby club and am putting the finishing touches to the poster style prints. I'll be selling through photobox and gallery will state a 30% donation from sales to the minis section.

By the way, how did you get on with your sports posters. Any sales?
 
so they want you to cover the day for nowt and then pay them a % of your possible sales as a dobnation sounds like the tail wagging the dog to me
 
redmonkee said:
I've been asked by a guy I know through Farsley AFC if I fancy shooting a under 7's tournament held by Pudsey Juniors.

I once did some free shots of the junior's when they were mascots at a Farsley match and the team coach contacted the guy at Farsley to ask me if i'd be willing to shoot this upcoming tournament this weekend.

Now I'm not getting paid for this but obviously I get any money I make from print sales, which hopefully could be good as there are 20 teams attending on the day.

Now the guy at Farsley seems to think it would be good on my part to make a donation to Pudsey Juniors for letting me shoot the tournament. What do you think I should do? Make a fixed donation, base donation on percentage of sales, or not donate.
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If you need onsite printing Phil, I can help you out with this.
 
I found junior tournaments a bit hit and miss to the point that I wont do them anymore unless they are proven earners.. or getting paid in advance.

if you print onsite then your should make lots of money

if your looking at web sales after the event then you could be wasting your time.. or you could make a fortune..

as for giving the club a percentage.. so long as you price accordingly so your not losing out then it makes no difference..
 
Lee I managed to sell one poster, but I think if these were advertised better they would sell more

blue marlin said:
so they want you to cover the day for nowt and then pay them a % of your possible sales as a dobnation sounds like the tail wagging the dog to me
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Well it is just the guy at Farsley that seems to think a donation would be a good idea.

Though I am like you I think covering the event for free, then giving a donation is a bit of a tall order to ask :shrug:
 
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Tugster said:
If you need onsite printing Phil, I can help you out with this.
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Cheers Tug but I was gonna use DSCL to print them after parents buy pics through my website, I was aiming at having all pics fully edited on the night of the event.

Just out of interest what could you help me out with?
 
KIPAX said:
I found junior tournaments a bit hit and miss to the point that I wont do them anymore unless they are proven earners.. or getting paid in advance.

if you print onsite then your should make lots of money

if your looking at web sales after the event then you could be wasting your time.. or you could make a fortune..

as for giving the club a percentage.. so long as you price accordingly so your not losing out then it makes no difference..
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This is why i'm not sure I want to give a donation. I don't want to increase my prices to cover the donation as they may not be attractive to parents.
 
redmonkee said:
Lee I managed to sell one poster, but I think if these were advertised better they would sell more



Well it is just the guy at Farsley that seems to think a donation would be a good idea.

Though I am like you I think covering the event for free, then giving a donation is a bit of a tall order to ask :shrug:
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It's common place in the events world, normally around 10%. The club won't be getting your images. Would you expect the ice cream van man to turn up and flog his ice creams with nothing in return for the club? Or would it be wrong to be charged rent for a pitch on your local market to sell turnips? They're doing YOU the favour in allowing you to be the official photographer, and the only allowed to make sales from pictures taken. What's wrong with that?
 
redmonkee said:
This is why i'm not sure I want to give a donation. I don't want to increase my prices to cover the donation as they may not be attractive to parents.
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haa if you already have set prices and they want part of that then the risk is too high.. I am guessing we are talking web sales not sales on the day prints?
I would personally say NO to that..

If print sales on the day then its not uncommon for people to pay up front to be able to attend and photogrpah.. i am talking the photogrpahers paying the event organisors.. but web sales is hit and miss.. i wouldnt give any of my set prices as that means your working cheaper than normal and if sales are slow..
 
phil purple just got in before me.. of course he is right.. but this is a much smaller event so rules should be bent.. doubt anyone else would even want to do it :)
 
Guys you're both right. And Phil I agree with what you are saying, but like Tony said this is a very small 'event' and as I already have set prices on my website i'm just a little reluctant to give up a percentage as the profits are not that great anyway once postage and packaging is factored in.

If I was selling prints on site then that would be different.

Also bear in mind that this opportunity came about by me shooting Farsley for Free and also shooting the mascots for Free and providing the Juniors with copies of my images for their website.
 
redmonkee said:
Also bear in mind that this opportunity came about by me shooting Farsley for .
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Thats what you need to decide first.. is it an opportunity ? there is a real possibility that you could work hard all day.. process the pics.. get them online and sell 5 pictures .... Your taking a risk with web sales... Believe me I know.. You could do all the above and make hundreds of pounds.... You need to decide if the amount of work is worth the risk.
 
KIPAX said:
Thats what you need to decide first.. is it an opportunity ? there is a real possibility that you could work hard all day.. process the pics.. get them online and sell 5 pictures .... Your taking a risk with web sales... Believe me I know.. You could do all the above and make hundreds of pounds.... You need to decide if the amount of work is worth the risk.
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I know what you're saying Tony. Last year I did a number of junior games and some paid off and some didn't. The one thing I did notice though was I made a lot of my sales quite some months after the event.

I think I'll just shoot the tournament without giving a donation. The one thing i'm beginning to learn is making money out of Sports Photography is very difficult
 
Personally I would give them 10% and if you make more maybe up it a little.

I have discovered with our event work if you push the fact that the charity or club is getting a share of the takings (takings not proffit push that part) people are much more willing to spend and maybe buy that extra print or take you up on your offer of 3 for £25 (normal price £10 per print) how ever you price it that is up to you but if you give a donation your more likley to be asked back next year. I know never do work cheap for the promise of future work but if your not asked to return then your not going to make anything, 90% of somthing is better than 100% of nothing.

I have found sometimes its a little embarrasing that you go and hand over £30 when you do £300 worth of sales but I always think its £30 they wouldn't have had and they did nothing for it anyway.
 
redmonkee said:
Cheers Tug but I was gonna use DSCL to print them after parents buy pics through my website, I was aiming at having all pics fully edited on the night of the event.

Just out of interest what could you help me out with?
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Hi Phil,

If you wanted to go down the line of printing on site at the event. I, as many others do on TP, are doing the junior sports events. We have several Dye Sub printers, and a viewing system. etc etc

I am in discussion with a body at the moment to cover their games. The initial contact was to tell them who I was, what I did and what we could do for them.

The reply came back, Very interested but could you tell us what you would charge for the prints and what percentage you would be giving to the organisation.

This is pretty much a standard reply nowadays. I think as times are getting finacially tough for everyone, the organisations want their cut of your profits.

Web sales are very hit and miss. You hit the nail on the head though, Advertising the event in advance and perhaps offer some form of incentive prior to the event to keep interest and also to save the Farsley players some dosh.

The offer is there should you want any assistance.
 
Not to put you off, but just to inform you. Myself and another photographer covered the final of the junior Kent Cups last summer. 3 games and a the best part of the day in the sun.

We sold our prints thru the web, handing out leaflets on the day with the url on.

We made 30 quid in sales from about 3 purchases, this is also to be split in between the 2 of us.

Not the most I have ever earned in a day!
 
hjwatso1 said:
Not to put you off, but just to inform you. Myself and another photographer covered the final of the junior Kent Cups last summer. 3 games and a the best part of the day in the sun.

We sold our prints thru the web, handing out leaflets on the day with the url on.

We made 30 quid in sales from about 3 purchases, this is also to be split in between the 2 of us.

Not the most I have ever earned in a day!
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Hi Helen, i know what you're saying and I'm prepared not to make much. I have shot one off games before and made quite a lot on them, and like I say I find I get sales from the games throughout the course of the year particularly in the run up to Xmas, so i'll shoot the tournament and just leave them on my website.

I've designed some flyers (printed them free at work (y)) so the parents know who I am and where to see/buy the images, so we'll see how well it pays.
 
hjwatso1 said:
Not to put you off, but just to inform you. Myself and another photographer covered the final of the junior Kent Cups last summer. 3 games and a the best part of the day in the sun.

We sold our prints thru the web, handing out leaflets on the day with the url on.

We made 30 quid in sales from about 3 purchases, this is also to be split in between the 2 of us.

Not the most I have ever earned in a day!
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and there we have the gamble.. I ahve done games / tournaments like above and also had ones that earn me a fortune.. swings and roundabouts.. but its certainly put me off and like I say ..I wont even do them now unless being paid.. lot of hard work for possible litte return.. imagine helens situation and handing over 10%

printing on site is the way to go every time IMHO but not always possible.. i wish you all the best on it and hope this is a good occasion and you amke loads :)
 
KIPAX said:
and there we have the gamble.. I ahve done games / tournaments like above and also had ones that earn me a fortune.. swings and roundabouts.. but its certainly put me off and like I say ..I wont even do them now unless being paid.. lot of hard work for possible litte return.. imagine helens situation and handing over 10%

printing on site is the way to go every time IMHO but not always possible.. i wish you all the best on it and hope this is a good occasion and you amke loads :)
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Cheers Tony (y)

I'm gonna decide against printing on site as it'll be too much to worry about so Cheers Tug for the offer but i'll leave it.

The way I also see it is I wouldn't be shooting anything else on Saturday so hey ho may as well go :D
 
The other thing about giving to the club it gives them an incentive to promote the sale of photos.

Another thought for you, how are you going to cover the games of football? It is unlikely that they will last 90 minutes each maybe 10 minutes each way is more like it especially for the early rounds. Is it a simple knockout tournament or are they going to start with groups? just so you can get an idea of how many games your going to need to cover.

To maximize sales you want at least one photo of each kid playing. If you don't get a shot of them then their parents ain't going to buy one. That means covering at least 10 games in the first round after all you don't know who will progress to the next round. and its not always possible to get each kid in a single game so really you want to cover more. Then you go for the next round where the pressure is off a little as you probably have most of the kids shot anyway.
 
All good points coming out of Bolton :)
 
Cheers Little John.

Well i've had some more info re the tournament. There's gonna be 20 teams and approx 300 parents. each team plays in a league and have 5 games of 10 mins each way. with the top 2 teams playing off against each other.

Apparently all players get a medal too.

The pitches will be divided up into 4x7 (whatever size that is :thinking:)

There will be programmes sold on the day and I have arranged for my flyer to be given out with these programmes, and in return I have advertised that 10% of my sales will be donated to the Juniors, whose reason for hosting the tournament is to raise some much needed cash to pay for their training pitches during winter where they used to get the lights for free, but now have to pay £25ph.

One Question for you guys, what lens combo should I go for?.
I have 2 bodies
17-40L
35 1.4L
135 f2L
300 2.8
1.4XTC
 
you wont need the tc for anyhting..


135 will be perfect and the 17-40 for team shots


what are you going to do about parents bringing there 7d and 70-200 then putting them all on facebook for everyone to grab... thus killing your sales
 
KIPAX said:
you wont need the tc for anyhting..


135 will be perfect and the 17-40 for team shots


what are you going to do about parents bringing there 7d and 70-200 then putting them all on facebook for everyone to grab... thus killing your sales
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I was thinking the 135 (y)

I may take the 300 may come in handy for grabbing action on nearby pitches.

As for parents bringing their own cameras, i'll just have to lump it :D
 
redmonkee said:
As for parents bringing their own cameras, i'll just have to lump it :D
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It only takes one to upload hundreds to facebook and thats you killed off because nobody will buy your pictures no matter how good if they can get simmilar off facebook for free.. lesser quality or not (just because someone isnt official doesnt mean they cant take good pics)

The organisors want a percentage off you.. they need to give somehting in return.. I ahve always made sure that apart from pointy clicky.. nobody else is allowed to take pictures... I know half of TP hate that.. but it's business.
 
At our annual tornament in august DFE ( i think it is. The well equipped van)

The seem to get a roaring trade never look at the pics to be honest and pricing but as i say they seem to sell a fair few. But its defo printing on the day in one of those high class cardboard frames that seems to work.

He turns up and gives our club a percentage of his sales or whatever and we seem to get a good chunk of money. He has been coming for the past 3 years so he cant do that bad out of the weekend.
 
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I really think you're missing a huge opportunity here Phil. On these types of events, at the age they are at, you need to print on the day and get some sales.

It seems that it's the only way to make any money in junior sports. Kipax is the oracle on this subject, and I will confirm, if you don't get a sale on the day, facebook will kill you dead. If on the other hand, you want to be there for fun, and make a sale or two if they happen later, then good on ya for that.

Look at what you want to gain from it, sales or being part of the day. Then make a decision based on that, good luck either way.

ps, if you want, i'll pm a link to an event tog website, who makes sales on the day, and the quality of work is .......... :puke::bang: if they can make sales, you could retire early (y)
 
I do ALOT of kids stuff including full day tourneys etc and do alright off it, Web sales only. What I cant justify is selling at £9 per image when my normal web rate is no where near that, I would come accross greedy if I upped prices for that day alone and dont think I will get much more sales as people know they can go online tomorrow and buy them cheaper, The exact same picture. I cant offer onsite regually as Midweek and Saturdays I travel from pitch to pitch to cover games, Its only the tourneys that are based at one place. However, The 4 junior leagues I cover all have my advert as there back page of the programme and I have banners and A Boards about the place so people know where to buy from. What do I do regards parents with camera.... Not alot but out of the 5 events a year I do 3 are at pro grounds where they cant come pitchside anyway. Just be crafty, Team pics on halfway line etc
 
redmonkee said:
Cheers Little John.

Well i've had some more info re the tournament. There's gonna be 20 teams and approx 300 parents. each team plays in a league and have 5 games of 10 mins each way. with the top 2 teams playing off against each other.

Apparently all players get a medal too.

The pitches will be divided up into 4x7 (whatever size that is :thinking:)
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They will probably be using four 7 a side pitches which are 50-60m long by 30-40m wide which are about half a full size pitch.

You will be looking at 2 leagues/groups with 10 teams in each so 50 games in that round 4 games at a time, make sure you get the schedual so you can plan where you will be to make sure you cover each team once. thats over 4 hours if they play back to back.

2nd round will probably be the top 4 of each group so 4 games all at the same time. Good luck with that one ;)

3rd round will be the winners of those 4 games so 2 games at the same time

4th round will be 2 games winners of the previous round for 1st and 2nd and loosers fight for 3rd and 4th place.

So 58 games over the day, hope you got lots of memory cards or some decent way of storing your images quickly from your cards.

Plus team photos before the games kick off, team photos with their medals or trophys.

300mm will give you full length and width of the pitch coverage but pretty useless for quite a lot of the rest of it that kids tend to play on in the centre as they chase the ball. So 135mm is probably better. Be prepared for penalties in the later rounds. Make sure you get the winning team shot with their trophy its always been a good seller for us, usually the coach buys one each for his team.

I am doing my first none selling on the day this weekend so I can't comment on how that goes but I do know from the event stuff we have done on the night is huge, I don't think we have sold a single print after even people saying they want large canvases or 10 of what ever but don't have the cash with them they never buy after.
 
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KIPAX said:
It only takes one to upload hundreds to facebook and thats you killed off because nobody will buy your pictures no matter how good if they can get simmilar off facebook for free.. lesser quality or not (just because someone isnt official doesnt mean they cant take good pics)

The organisors want a percentage off you.. they need to give somehting in return.. I ahve always made sure that apart from pointy clicky.. nobody else is allowed to take pictures... I know half of TP hate that.. but it's business.
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I see what you're saying Tony but this is a fairly laid back event and I don't feel comfortable asking the organisers to stop other people bringing their cameras in.
 
Haven't covered football but I do youth rugby matches. Usually at a tournament there are several matches running at the same time in the early stages, only at maybe the semi's and final are there single matches running.

How are you going to cover several games running at the same time?

How long are the matches? With 7 year olds I'd guess around 10-15 mins so you won't have long to get shots. The usual stuff I've seen is a shot of every player, even if they are standing around, hopefully an action shot of the player with the ball and a team shot.

I've seen DE work these type of events and they'll have 4 shooters plus someone in the van printing contact sheets, handling sales. As the matches wind down they'll double up on the van staff. Framed prints and cardboard framed prints seem to sell well. Single prints plus multi combined prints.

Easier for me as I just cover one team :D Hope this helps
 
Cheers Ste

Its good to see people doing well out of web sales after the event(y)

Little John said:
They will probably be using four 7 a side pitches which are 50-60m long by 30-40m wide which are about half a full size pitch.

You will be looking at 2 leagues/groups with 10 teams in each so 50 games in that round 4 games at a time, make sure you get the schedual so you can plan where you will be to make sure you cover each team once. thats over 4 hours if they play back to back.

2nd round will probably be the top 4 of each group so 4 games all at the same time. Good luck with that one ;)

3rd round will be the winners of those 4 games so 2 games at the same time

4th round will be 2 games winners of the previous round for 1st and 2nd and loosers fight for 3rd and 4th place.

So 58 games over the day, hope you got lots of memory cards or some decent way of storing your images quickly from your cards.

Plus team photos before the games kick off, team photos with their medals or trophys.

300mm will give you full length and width of the pitch coverage but pretty useless for quite a lot of the rest of it that kids tend to play on in the centre as they chase the ball. So 135mm is probably better. Be prepared for penalties in the later rounds. Make sure you get the winning team shot with their trophy its always been a good seller for us, usually the coach buys one each for his team.

I am doing my first none selling on the day this weekend so I can't comment on how that goes but I do know from the event stuff we have done on the night is huge, I don't think we have sold a single print after even people saying they want large canvases or 10 of what ever but don't have the cash with them they never buy after.
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Some useful info there mate, and given me plenty of food for thought :thinking: I'm gonna have to have some kind of strategy to this so covering all the games is gonna be tough.

At these events where you're walking from one pitch to another do you make sure you sit down to take your pics? i'm a big believer in getting as low as possible and its gonna be a work out getting up and down all day to cover these games:LOL:
 
Frantic_Inc said:
It depends what quality of shot your after. Look at DE photos stuff. They all stand with a monopod and that shows in the end result.

Can the parents tell the difference though?
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The ones I've seen use Canon 1D mk3's, 70-200 f2.8 IS L lenses, sometimes with a 2x TC on. Only one person uses a monopod.

The little fold up seats can be useful and quick to move
 
redmonkee said:
I see what you're saying Tony but this is a fairly laid back event and I don't feel comfortable asking the organisers to stop other people bringing their cameras in.
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Then you need to keep your fingers crossed because one person can kill your whole day and make it a complete waste of time for you.. They felt comfortable asking you for part of your profits BTW :)
 
Frantic_Inc said:
It depends what quality of shot your after. Look at DE photos stuff. They all stand with a monopod and that shows in the end result.

Can the parents tell the difference though?
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I'm after quality similar to these i've done of cricket in the past
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=245118

There's no way i'd walk around and get snap shot quality photos just for the sake of covering every player. If I do this then i could run the risk of parents questioning the quality of my work and therefore not wanting to pay my prices.

I doubt i'll be able to shoot every player, but i'll give it a good go. (y)
 
KIPAX said:
Then you need to keep your fingers crossed because one person can kill your whole day and make it a complete waste of time for you.. They felt comfortable asking you for part of your profits BTW :)
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Tony I've just emailed the guy to see if there's anyway we can let P&S cameras in but no DSLR's (y)
 
Just had a reply to my email.

Not sure how we could but I very much doubt they will as parents taking pictures of kids is banned at league level, only event photographers are allowed.

I have been to lots of tournaments and never seen parents taking loads of pictures, theres always a big q if the photrapher has a tent.

Seems fair enough :)
 
redmonkee said:
I doubt i'll be able to shoot every player, but i'll give it a good go. (y)
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I have that written in my terms of service.. just in what services I offer on my website.. I make it clear up front that I can't guarantee capturing every player in a game or comp. I try but :)

Had a parent contact me once.. she was well upset.. her son was playing right back and I seemed to have everyone but him..... first half he was at the apposite corner to me.. as far away as you could get and always players in front.. 2nd half he was right under my nose and usually too close to shoot.

I replied saying the only pics I had of him he was half obscured or back to me.. she bought a back to me picture that i retreived from the trash :)
 
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