Junior footy tournament question?

KIPAX said:
I have that written in my terms of service.. just in what services I offer on my website.. I make it clear up front that I can't guarantee capturing every player in a game or comp. I try but :)

Had a parent contact me once.. she was well upset.. her son was playing right back and I seemed to have everyone but him..... first half he was at the apposite corner to me.. as far away as you could get and always players in front.. 2nd half he was right under my nose and usually too close to shoot.

I replied saying the only pics I had of him he was half obscured or back to me.. she bought a back to me picture that i retreived from the trash :)
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:LOL: and we always insist on binning those back shots haha, just goes to show the usage of the shot determines what quality is deemed acceptable.
 
Frantic_Inc said:
I think you will need some form of lighting to guarantee well lit shots. Can you get hold of some continuous/video lighting?
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No not really :shrug:

The only lighting I have is a YN560 flash with stand and Westcott SoftBox, but even then I'm very new to OCF work and still need to learn a lot to be fully confident when using it.
 
I shoot between 20 and 30 footy and rugby tournaments each year. They range from 50 to 300 teams.

IMHO, if you don't offer on-site printing then then you're losing around 80% of your potential sales, so I'm surprised that you didn't bite Tugsters hand off when he offered you his facilities.

In terms of commission, we always offer this. It's a sliding scale starting at 10% of the first £1k, and getting larger. We do this because tournaments are our shop window, and we want to be invited back the next year.

For an under 7's tournament, make sure that you shoot EVERY player, regardless of whether they're scoring a goal or just standing there with hands in pockets.

When you offer the photos for sale, offer them with the players name on it, and possibly team / competition name. that makes them more valuable in the parents eyes.

Also - and this is really important - make sure that you cover every single team. You should have a shooting schedule worked out that allows for this. If it can't be done by a single photographers, then get someone else in to help.

Missing the odd player or two is forgivable and explainable, but if you miss a whole team then you wont be asked back.

Whilst the awards will be popular, you'll be in direct competition with parents cameras, and you probably wont take a photo that will be worth the parents buying it from you, unless you engineer it so ;~).

Good luck !
 
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Jerm said:
When you offer the photos for sale, offer them with the players name on it, and possibly team / competition name. that makes them more valuable in the parents eyes.
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Can we just clarify this.. I am guessing you mean.. offer the facility to put the name on which they will provide.. Not publish pictures of kids football with names on...

I have been meaning to offer this for quite some time on my pictures and really must get round to it...
 
Byker28i said:
Re above. Pay attention to if a parent says "make sure you get a shot of my son". I've been asked that a few times and every time made sales.
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oh absoloutly.. they get extra pics taken if they ask up front.. nothing like sure interest :)
 
I am guessing you mean.. offer the facility to put the name on which they will provide..
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Exactly right. I'll try to post an example tomorrow, but basically it would say..

John Smith
Melchester Rovers
Esher FC Under 7's Tournament 2011
 
oh absoloutly.. they get extra pics taken if they ask up front.. nothing like sure interest
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Agreed again.

It also helps if you have an 'Official Photographer' bib on.. you can get them made up for a tenner.
 
Hi. Hope its OK to ask a Q here.
I think Phil is very brave to do all this. Surely you'll work your a* off all day, taking loads of pics, running from pitch to pitch etc. Exhausting.

On a purely practical level, I don't see how you can shoot, print and sell if its just a 'one-man' show. Surely you need a partner, someone to take the CF card and download, then be on hand to show and sell. I've seen this sort of set up, a car and trailer or big van with all the printer stuff, advertising boards, computer, generator etc set up. To have all that is mighty expensive, I've no doubt. It would only be worth it if it was your 'living'. the setup outlay would be prohibitive unless there is some sort of grant available. I mean, I'd have to get a car with a tow bar, maybe a trailer, somewhere to store said trailer, by a generator, a printer, all that stuff. £000s. I'm sure Tugster could elaborate. Someone with that ability for hire would be great to test the water for this sort of thing.

I toyed with this idea a couple of years ago for junior motocross. Web sales meant lots of views, no sales. Good for my portfolio building/experience, but not income. And then the idea of traipsing around various motox venues 1-2 weekends a month, rain or shine, just really did not appeal for a limited income - average £5 a pic! I earn more regular teaching weekends during term time, may be not as much as a potential earner, but at least guaranteed!

Good luck Phil, let's hear how you get on.
 
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There is no doubt that to do it 'properly' is an investment.

Our setup is larger than DE photos have.. we have twin marquees, 15 viewing screens, 2 sales desks, 5 printers... frankly it's frightening.

But, as you say, it's our living - that's how I pay the mortgage.

I didn't start that size though. A genny, small tent and dyesub printer would set you back maybe £2k. If you assume a modest return of say £500 per event, then you've covered the cost pretty quickly.

That was why I was surprised that Tugsters offer wasn't taken up.

Our print prices start at £10 and rise to £20 for personalised 12x8 prints. The only product we offered below that was keyrings at £6, but we've now stopped doing these as they took too long to produce, in favour of a plastic card printer which prints the images onto a 'credit card' in a fraction of the time.

I've only covered motocross once (for a colleague), but found the sales to be decent. Not 4 figures, but a good way towards it.

Fundamentally you have to ask yourself why you're doing it. If it's for the money (as well as the love) then you need to try to maximise your earning ability within the constraints of your finances.

If however it's for the love / portfolio, then that's fine as well.. nowt wrong with that.
 
Photodiva said:
Hi. Hope its OK to ask a Q here.
I think Phil is very brave to do all this. Surely you'll work your a* off all day, taking loads of pics, running from pitch to pitch etc. Exhausting.

On a purely practical level, I don't see how you can shoot, print and sell if its just a 'one-man' show. Surely you need a partner, someone to take the CF card and download, then be on hand to show and sell. I've seen this sort of set up, a car and trailer or big van with all the printer stuff, advertising boards, computer, generator etc set up. To have all that is mighty expensive, I've no doubt. It would only be worth it if it was your 'living'. the setup outlay would be prohibitive unless there is some sort of grant available. I mean, I'd have to get a car with a tow bar, maybe a trailer, somewhere to store said trailer, by a generator, a printer, all that stuff. £000s. I'm sure Tugster could elaborate. Someone with that ability for hire would be great to test the water for this sort of thing.

Good luck Phil, let's hear how you get on.
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Cheers Carol and thanks for putting this into a little perspective.

Yes I'll be a one man band on Saturday and hence the reason why I want to keep it as simple as possible without the onsite printing.

Also I agree that to do this 'properly' involves a big outlay, one which i've already spent on acquiring my camers bodies, lenses and laptop so my aim on Saturday is to get by with what I have and if I make a few hundred pounds then I see it as a Saturday well spent (y)

Yeah it wont, pay the mortgage (er well actually i dont have a mortgage, but you get the idea :D) but as this is not my day job I am doing it more as a hobby with an aim to 'one day' making a more serious living out of it.
 
There was a chat about event setup costs recently. I think the DE franchise plus kit worked out about £55K

Phil. If you've a laptop, ipad etc, get some shots onto it in the clubhouse/presentation, then you'll attract interest, at which point you can hand out your business card/website address.
 
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Byker28i said:
There was a chat about event setup costs recently. I think the DE franchise plus kit worked out about £55K

Phil. If you've a laptop, ipad etc, get some shots onto it in the clubhouse/presentation, then you'll attract interest, at which point you can hand out your business card/website address.
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Now that my friend is a cracking idea. I could put some kind of slideshow together showcasing my Farsley pics as well as Junior Sport pics, plus details of my website.

hhmmmm now what software would be best for this?:thinking:
 
Not sure. I bought an iPad cheap, shoot raw and small jpeg so the iPad loads just the small jpegs, which is quick. I shoot a match, connect the camera whilst walking back to the clubhouse (or in the clubhouse) and I've soon got lots of pics loaded. It generate interest and I hand out business cards as I just sell via the web for club funds.

I guess with a laptop you could just use the screen saver picture display that shows all pics in a folder. One of those pics could be your website address.
 
Byker28i said:
Not sure. I bought an iPad cheap, shoot raw and small jpeg .
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RAW at a footbll tournament where he will take a couple of thousand pictures? I dont think thats such a great idea myself :)
 
Byker28i said:
Not sure. I bought an iPad cheap, shoot raw and small jpeg so the iPad loads just the small jpegs, which is quick. I shoot a match, connect the camera whilst walking back to the clubhouse (or in the clubhouse) and I've soon got lots of pics loaded. It generate interest and I hand out business cards as I just sell via the web for club funds.

I guess with a laptop you could just use the screen saver picture display that shows all pics in a folder. One of those pics could be your website address.
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Hmmm I was thinking of just putting together a slideshow of images I've taken in the past to give people a general idea as to the quality of my work.

If I just load unedited images from the day, they could contain wonky horizontals and pics that would look better with cropping. I suppose I want to parents to see my images at their best after i've edited them, unlike a certain event company who just seem to post all images on their site even ones OOF and ones with heads missing :LOL:
 
I was thinking of just putting together a slideshow of images I've taken in the past to give people a general idea as to the quality of my work.
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TBH and very blunt, no one is really interested in the quality of your work. You either have a photo of their child playing or you don't. They'll be buying a memento of the day, not a piece of art.

In fact, I suspect that you'll confuse people as they'll be expecting to see images from the day in a slide show.

We try to filter out the OOF and obvious bad uns from our upload, but the reason that event companies do a bulk upload is the simple economics.
 
Lots of advice here but mostly not good. I cover many events of this nature throughout the year and you cannot do them half cocked or like football league coverage, it just doesnt work.

You need a base to sell from either a van or marque. Onsite viewing is essential as is printing. If you dont offer these there are plenty more tournaments over the coming months were these options will be available.

Depending on how many pitches are in use will determine how many extra photographers you'll need plus sales staff and a means of displaying the images. Trying to cover these type of events single handed will just be a waste your time. Best option is to team up with someone who has the right equipment and knows what they are doing. Just remember 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing (y)
 
snapzz said:
Lots of advice here but mostly not good. I cover many events of this nature throughout the year and you cannot do them half cocked or like football league coverage, it just doesnt work.

You need a base to sell from either a van or marque. Onsite viewing is essential as is printing. If you dont offer these there are plenty more tournaments over the coming months were these options will be available.

Depending on how many pitches are in use will determine how many extra photographers you'll need plus sales staff and a means of displaying the images. Trying to cover these type of events single handed will just be a waste your time. Best option is to team up with someone who has the right equipment and knows what they are doing. Just remember 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing (y)
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I see what you're sating Graham but why do you think i'll make 100% of nothing if I work on my own?

I'm confident the quality of my work will win through as I have sold pretty well from single games where I've just turned up on the day without any prior advertising or onsite printing/viewing.

But here I have flyers printed which will be handed out by the organiser's and I am planning a slideshow on my laptop to further advertise my work and who I am. Also bear in mind a lot of the people will recognise me as the photographer from Farsley AFC which I'm sure will help with my sales.

Add the fact i'm giving 10% back i'm confident I can make the day pay for itself. Sure If I went along the lines of hiring helpers, and renting/paying for printing services i'd make it pay more, but then i'd have a load more pressure and probably wouldn't enjoy the day as much.

I think I need to point out this is fairly low key event from what I gather and they are just happy to have me helping out.
 
Phil
I have no wish to dent you enthusiasm or confidence but listen to Jeremy, Tugster and others who cover these type of tournaments on a regular basis, we know what works and what doesnt. However there is always the odd event that will be different so I hope its yours (y)
 
Graham I do not doubt what you guys are saying as you all have expeience I can only wish for.

I just think that I should take it a step at a time, and as this is my first event I think I should concentrate on covering as many games as I can and getting decent images.

If and when I cover another event I may take Tug up on the offer (if its still available) of onsite printing assistance. I think I'll learn a lot from doing this on my own and I'll get an idea of the kind of money one can expect to make from these events.
:)
 
Phil

We all wish you the best of luck, and we don't want to put a damper on your day.

If you go in with your eyes open and sensible expectations then that's fine - you'll have a good time and you may earn a bit.

My concern is that I'm getting mixed messages from your postings.

If you're confident in your abilities and you're looking to do this in a more serious way in the future as you said, then you should IMHO be doing your best to maximise the potential income from this small tournament as a springboard to greater things.

The risk you run by doing it 'half cocked' as Graham said is that you'll end up with the worst scenario - not enjoying it, working very hard AND not making any money.

I don't think anyone is having a go at you, just giving the benefit (if that's the right word in this case !) of our experience.

Whatever you decide.. good luck !
 
Phil

There is some great advice that has been given and there is some advice that is well meant but is not really how it is in the real event photography world.

You have to make the decision as to what you want to achieve from the tournament. If this is to maximise sales then you need to be looking at an established eventer to maximise sales and also to take advantage of their experience in this line of photography. Also that they have the kit necesary to do the job. Pinters, Viewing Stations and Either a Van or a Marquee, or better still both.

On the other hand if you want to offer a more personal bespoke service and maximising sales isn't the aim, then you will do fine by doing the tournament the way that you have stated above. That way you will not have to change your existing pricing structure.

I think you have the support from the club and also from reading your posts, you are well known with the players. So with as much advertising as possible, you will make sales and I guess gain further work from the day.

I would offer only one piece of advice myself, I think Phil also touched upon it too. Make sure you get a shot of all the players. Do a Team shot of all the teams and also if possible, get a posed shot of each of the individual players.
You can then make up a template to do Team and Individual print with some text on it, making it specific to your Farsley Tournament.

Good luck...You will be a busy guy on Saturday, I hope the weather is kind to you.

Offer is still there for the future.
 
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redmonkee said:
Hmmm I was thinking of just putting together a slideshow of images I've taken in the past to give people a general idea as to the quality of my work.

If I just load unedited images from the day, they could contain wonky horizontals and pics that would look better with cropping. I suppose I want to parents to see my images at their best after i've edited them, unlike a certain event company who just seem to post all images on their site even ones OOF and ones with heads missing :LOL:
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Hi Phil. That was what I was thinking when I did motox. I'd want time to preview, roughly crop, bin the crap, but there's no time. I should have had an iPad but they didn't exist then and there was no clubhouse! Jerm, I certainly think you make good points. If Phil is not considering this as a 'business', I think the problems outweigh the benefits (or at least that's how I see it). Its a catch 22 - you can't do a 'professional' job without the equipment, but you don't want the outlay if you're not going 'full time'. Unless you get one of those little 6x4 printers and churn them out ...

Incidentally, I did a dinner/dance event for a friend who cried off doing it, a year or so ago. Just that, taking shots of party goers before the sit down in a corner of a room (all that was available) and trying to get most if not all before the sit down was a nightmare. People come in, want to chat, don't necessarily want a shot until they've supped a glass or two. Then, after the food, showing the images on the lappie (having previewed and hid the wonky ones) and trying to take orders when all are looking over each others shoulders, figuring out what size, name, address, taking a cheque or cash. It was really a struggle. I was drained at the end of the night. I tried to be organized, but it was the first time I'd done this and boy was it a steep learning curve. I think that decided me that really I didn't want to do events for a living ... I hope your experience is much more positive!
 
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Tugster said:
Phil

There is some great advice that has been given and there is some advice that is well meant but is not really how it is in the real event photography world.

You have to make the decision as to what you want to achieve from the tournament. If this is to maximise sales then you need to be looking at an established eventer to maximise sales and also to take advantage of their experience in this line of photography. Also that they have the kit necesary to do the job. Pinters, Viewing Stations and Either a Van or a Marquee, or better still both.

On the other hand if you want to offer a more personal bespoke service and maximising sales isn't the aim, then you will do fine by doing the tournament the way that you have stated above. That way you will not have to change your existing pricing structure.

I think you have the support from the club and also from reading your posts, you are well known with the players. So with as much advertising as possible, you will make sales and I guess gain further work from the day.

I would offer only one piece of advice myself, I think Phil also touched upon it too. Make sure you get a shot of all the players. Do a Team shot of all the teams and also if possible, get a posed shot of each of the individual players.
You can then make up a template to do Team and Individual print with some text on it, making it specific to your Farsley Tournament.

Good luck...You will be a busy guy on Saturday, I hope the weather is kind to you.

Offer is still there for the future.
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Thanks Tug there's some good advice there.(y)

In your experience do you find prints sell best when the player is completely isolated regardless of he/she having the ball, as opposed to a good action shot which may contain a few players in the frame.
 
This is an example of the personalised photos, as promised.

We charge £15 for 2 images on the photo, then £2.50 per image thereafter, although this one was sold as a wall poster size for £75.

Note my comments about shooting everyone, even if they're standing still. Very ordinary images....

rugby%20composite%20small.jpg
 
That's interesting Jeremy

I have actually sold a poster print in the past
Dave_POS-2.jpg

Obviously the final design had 3 different images.

These are other examples of posters and prints I can offer
harry_poster1.jpg


A more fine art example
poster.jpg


Also I could use the flyer design as a possible template.
Farsley_pos.jpg


So to make these possible sales alternatives i'm really gonna have to shoot shoot shoot :nuts:
 
That's good stuff, and adds value really well.

The one point that I'd make is that in order for these types of products to be efficient they need to be really easy to produce. Our templates (one of may above) are drag and drop, and type the name, so the production takes us less than 30 seconds.

I really like your offerings but they look like they're quite involved ? I wouldn't worry too much about the quantity of images, I'd say that 70% of the named images we sell are single photos.
 
To be honest apart from the fine art example these are pretty much drag and drop, except the obvious use of the pen tool to clip the main subject out, but I can do these in 5 mins.

Obviously these would be no good to do onsite, but this is where the advantage of web sales comes in as it affords me a little more time to produce products like these.
 
I have been following this thread since the first posting. I have recently started selling my rugby photographs and was looking to get into event photography, there are numerous mini and junior rugby tournaments in South West Wales so the opportunities are there, however the posters illustrated above are not (as far as I am aware) being offered, so I am going to give it a go and see what becomes of it.

Thanks guys for the inspiration.
 
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redmonkee said:
Thanks Tug there's some good advice there.(y)

In your experience do you find prints sell best when the player is completely isolated regardless of he/she having the ball, as opposed to a good action shot which may contain a few players in the frame.
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I like the stuff you have displayed in the past and also on this thread.

I can only echo what Jerm has said reference what are the best sellers.

I have toyed with taking my epson 7800 onsite to print larger images but they take approx 15 mins to print out ...It would work but you would have to take the order and ask them to come back and collect later in the day.

Just make sure you take payment before anything is printed. Card facillities are something I'm looking at for the future. Maybe the club could help you out with taking card payments.

If you have the abillity to show all your images on the day, you will be surprised what sells and strangely, what doesn't sell....Black magic sometimes.

I'm now shooting three jujnior games on Saturday and three on Sunday but I'll be just doing web sales for these as they are not tournament or gala's.
 
These posters are excellent and would sell very well at sports events. You may even be able to sell and post after the event but for maximum effect printing onsite would be a must.
 
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