Landscapes & Filters

WillNicholls

WillNicholls

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Will
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Hi,

I've got my hands on a Nikkor 24-70mm f2.8. It's a very nice lens, and I would like to do some landscape work in Cambodia later this year.

The priority is to film however, so this will also be used to take scenic footage I think.

Anyway - I'm new to the landscape scene. It takes 77mm filters. Anything that I should have in my bag? And please state what it can be used for :D

Thanks - noob questions.
 
Circular Polarising filter. Essential. Can drmatically enhance the difference between blue sky and white cloud by selectively darkening the former. Also handy for reducing reflections on water and foilage.
Graduated Neutral Density. They have a dark bit at the top, transforming to clear half-way down. For selectively darkening skies. Very handy.
Neutral Density. Blocks a proportion of the light. Great for long exposures to get those those silky waterfall images.
 
hollis_f said:
Sorry, yes you're correct. A CPL is only essential for a landscape photographer who wants to produce the best possible landscape images. It's not essential for those willing to be 'meh'.
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I've never used one, does that mean I'm willing to be meh?

:cuckoo:
 
hollis_f said:
A CPL is only essential for a landscape photographer who wants to produce the best possible landscape images. It's not essential for those willing to be 'meh'.
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Yeah, because a CPL will make every crap photographer's landscape images suddenly amazing and every other talented photographer's images will be rubbish without one...
 
TBH, although I might not have put it as strongly as Frank I do tend to agree that a CPL is a very very important addition to a landscape photographer's kit.

James, you're right that there are issues with using CPLs with ultrawides, but then again landscapes don't have to be taken on ultrawides do they? I have used each of my lenses for landscapes, right up to the long end of a 100-400.

The main issue is that the effect of a CPL can't be replicated in post. If I take a shot of a shoreline and want to see the rocks under the surface of the lake through the reflections I have no option other than a CPL.
 
markmullen said:
A CPL is one of the only filters that can't be replicated in post.
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I am rather asking than advising (or trying to be 'meh' :) ) so apologies to the thread starter... Mark, this is a beautiful picture, but can this really not be achieved in post? In Lightroom for example, by changing the luminance of the dominant sky colour?

Of course, with a filter it is easier and even faster, as you get all the colours affected, and in your image, you'd have to work with blue and also red I guess for the mountains, but is it really not possible to achieve the same in post?
 
AchimT said:
I am rather asking than advising (or trying to be 'meh' :) ) so apologies to the thread starter... Mark, this is a beautiful picture, but can this really not be achieved in post? In Lightroom for example, by changing the luminance of the dominant sky colour?

Of course, with a filter it is easier and even faster, as you get all the colours affected, and in your image, you'd have to work with blue and also red I guess for the mountains, but is it really not possible to achieve the same in post?
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Sorry, which one?

In my blog about grads? If it is blown (properly blown) then no amount of PP will recover a sky, short of stripping it in from another shot (which is forbidden in a lot of competitions, LPoTY for example).

I recognise that some people prefer to use exposure blending, and indeed there are times when I sometimes use it, but mainly I prefer to use filters.

As I say a CPL can't be replicated.
 
markmullen said:
James, you're right that there are issues with using CPLs with ultrawides, but then again landscapes don't have to be taken on ultrawides do they?
Click to expand...

Well seemingly according to Frank to get the "best possible landscape" you have to use a CPL at all times, I guess even if you get loads of dodgy banding in the sky when used with a UWA. :shrug:

The simple fact is CPL is not essential, it's a "nice to have" item. However for videos containing landscapes a ND Grad is far more useful, where you probably aren't going to be shooting in raw and so balancing sky and ground is more difficult.

Just my opinion.
 
Mark, apologies, I was referring to the ND Graduated article. I used to use filters in the days of analog cameras, but right now after having come back to an SLR and PP in Lightroom, I was wondering if it isn't maybe easier and cheaper to do some mods in Lightroom, rather than buy and carry expensive filters.

For CPL, is your preference the same brand you mention in your blog?
 
redddraggon said:
Right.........

You do know that CPL don't work too well on UWAs right?
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Not true. The patchy blue sky thing you're referring to is far from the norm and only happens at certain angles when the sun is low. Even then, you can rotate the filter to moderate it and still retain the benefit of better greens on foliage etc.

Any landscaper that doesn't have a CPL is seriously missing out.
 
AchimT said:
Mark, apologies, I was referring to the ND Graduated article. I used to use filters in the days of analog cameras, but right now after having come back to an SLR and PP in Lightroom, I was wondering if it isn't maybe easier and cheaper to do some mods in Lightroom, rather than buy and carry expensive filters.

For CPL, is your preference the same brand you mention in your blog?
Click to expand...

Using PP is fine if that is your preference, you might be lucky and have enough detail left to be able to use a software grad in LR, or it might have blown so much you have to strip in the sky from another exposure.

For me filters are quick and easy, particularly on a scene with moving elements, they get it done in one frame and mean I spend more time on location than on editing afterwards.

I use a Lee CPL, alternatives (that work with the Lee system) include the Heliopan 105mm which I understand has a slimmer bezel though I've never used one so couldn't comment on that.
 
redddraggon said:
Well seemingly according to Frank to get the "best possible landscape" you have to use a CPL at all times, I guess even if you get loads of dodgy banding in the sky when used with a UWA.
Click to expand...

You really do need to take some lessons in reading and comprehension. Please point out where I said that you need to use a CPL at all times. I said that it is an essential part of every landscape photographer's kit.

Do you disagree that a CPL is essential sometimes if one wants to get 'the best possible landscape'?

Even on an UWA a CPL can be useful for removing reflections. And if you understand how they work they can even be used without nasty banding effects in the sky (hint: try to get banding on a landscape shot with the sun directly behind you).
 
PMN said:
Yeah, because a CPL will make every crap photographer's landscape images suddenly amazing and every other talented photographer's images will be rubbish without one...
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Another one who doesn't seem to be able to read and comprehend English.

Please explain where I even suggested that a CPL can convert crap to amazing (I wish it were true). I said it can convert 'meh' to better than 'meh'. Do you disagree with that?
 
markmullen said:
A CPL is one of the only filters that can't be replicated in post.

A couple of blog posts of mine which might help you decide what you need:

ND grads http://www.markmullenphotography.co.uk/blog/2013/3/filters-for-landscape-photography

Long exposures http://www.markmullenphotography.co.uk/blog/2012/8/long-exposure-photography---my-tips

Hope they help.
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hollis_f said:
Circular Polarising filter. Essential. Can drmatically enhance the difference between blue sky and white cloud by selectively darkening the former. Also handy for reducing reflections on water and foilage.
Graduated Neutral Density. They have a dark bit at the top, transforming to clear half-way down. For selectively darkening skies. Very handy.
Neutral Density. Blocks a proportion of the light. Great for long exposures to get those those silky waterfall images.
Click to expand...

redddraggon said:
Here's a tutorial on filters:

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=319012

Personally I'd have a few (square) ND grads in my bag for both stills and video.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice all - will check out in more detail soon.
ND filters sound good. Heard about them indeed.


Reddragon: Why square? If you mean physically square...
 
Mark - thanks! Getting sky detail back in PP is indeed a one-click-and-drag matter of seconds. OTOH I had to do it on a lot of photos of my last trip to Asia, and in order to get proper colours on the ground, I have to adjust some more aspects, so overall, it is a work of 2 minutes or so per image, which I might be able to save by using filters.

I take it from what you write that a 2-stop ND Grad filter, and a 3 stop CPL are a good starting point?

Apologies again to Will for using his thread if this is not interesting for him

Edit: I forgot to mention one major limitation of processing the sky in PP - I think you call this halos. They appear almost invariably for example around the treeline if you reduce the luminance of the blue sky drastically. So PP is limited, sometimes less is possible than what you would need.
 
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AchimT said:
Mark - thanks! Getting sky detail back in PP is indeed a one-click-and-drag matter of seconds. OTOH I had to do it on a lot of photos of my last trip to Asia, and in order to get proper colours on the ground, I have to adjust some more aspects, so overall, it is a work of 2 minutes or so per image, which I might be able to save by using filters.
Click to expand...

Be wary of relying on this, if the dynamic range really is too much even for a raw file (which will give you more latitude for recovery than jpeg, but not an infinite amount) then you'll end up with pure white skies.

AchimT said:
I take it from what you write that a 2-stop ND Grad filter, and a 3 stop CPL are a good starting point?
Click to expand...

I'd go for a 3 stop grad, and a CPL (they're all much of a muchness in terms of how much light they reduce, usually 1.5-2 stops).
 
hollis_f said:
Sorry, yes you're correct. A CPL is only essential for a landscape photographer who wants to produce the best possible landscape images. It's not essential for those willing to be 'meh'.
Click to expand...

Nicely put.:lol:

You're right! (tho not sure about the meh! bit........)

I'd advise anyone planning to do landscapes to get and use a polariser, and ideally one for each lens. The Hoya HD polariser only reduces exposure by 1 stop, I think. This is usually an advantage but not always. Sometimes a 2 stop reduction in exposure is more useful - e.g. photographing waterfalls without a big stopper.

Personally if I was looking for one, all-purpose, ND grad I would choose a 2 stop hard. 3 stops can often be too dark.

The problem with polarisers and wide angle lenses is that the polarising effect is uneven. You do get an area of maximum polarisation which can be intrusive. However you can sometimes disguise this if there are patchy clouds in the darker area.
 
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hollis_f said:
Another one who doesn't seem to be able to read and comprehend English.
Click to expand...

Another one who needs educating in basic manners.

You very clearly wrote two distinct categories and only two. You very clearly indicated in the way you wrote that unless you use a CPL your images will never get above "meh" level. I wasn't the only person who took what you wrote that way so I'd suggest it's in fact you who has a problem expressing yourself in the written word rather than others who have problems understanding English. Just for your information, should you wish to try patronise me any further, I can read and comprehend English really rather well.
 
PMN said:
Another one who needs educating in basic manners.

You very clearly wrote two distinct categories and only two. You very clearly indicated in the way you wrote that unless you use a CPL your images will never get above "meh" level. I wasn't the only person who took what you wrote that way so I'd suggest it's in fact you who has a problem expressing yourself in the written word rather than others who have problems understanding English. Just for your information, should you wish to try patronise me any further, I can read and comprehend English really rather well.
Click to expand...

Boys, please stop it!
 
jerry12953 said:
The problem with polarisers and wide angle lenses is that the polarising effect is uneven. You do get an area of maximum polarisation which can be intrusive. However you can sometimes disguise this if there are patchy clouds in the darker area.
Click to expand...

Or, you can totally avoid it if you know what causes it. If the sun is low in the sky then you can avoid it by shooting with the sun directly behind (or in front of) you. However, the CPL won't really have much of an effect on the sky at all. It is, on the other hand, still very useful for reducing reflections.

The other time that you don't have to worry about uneven polarisation is when the sun is overhead (or near overhead) as long as you don't include too much sky (vertically) in your image. Of course, there are other reasons why one might not want to shoot near high noon.
 
WillNicholls said:
I have :)


What make of filters should I go for? Do I need to to for the most expensive Hoya?
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The Hoya HD polariser is very good. You only lose 1 stop of light using it, and has a narrow thread so doesn't cause vignetting . Not sure how much it is these days though. I should avoid the cheaper makes and ranges or you'll only need to buy again at a later date.

Regarding the ND grads, the very expensive Lee's are always regarded as the best, but in a comparative test in a current / recent photo mag - I can't remember which - Hitech's came out very well as well.

It might be worthwhile perusing this month's photomags in WHS and trying to find the one with the test.
 
WillNicholls said:
I have :)


What make of filters should I go for? Do I need to to for the most expensive Hoya?
Click to expand...

Will, before you rush out and buy, the key decision is what system to go for, rather than which particular filters.

Round screw-in filters (eg Hoya HD CPL) generally don't play well with square system filters (eg grads) and there are two main square systems - 100mm wide (Lee, HiTech) and 84mm wide (P-system, Cokin and many others).
 
HoppyUK said:
Will, before you rush out and buy, the key decision is what system to go for, rather than which particular filters.

Round screw-in filters (eg Hoya HD CPL) generally don't play well with square system filters (eg grads) and there are two main square systems - 100mm wide (Lee, HiTech) and 84mm wide (P-system, Cokin and many others).
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Ok I'm lost :p

What do you mean by different systems ??
 
WillNicholls said:
Ok I'm lost :p

What do you mean by different systems ??
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Let's make this easier.

Do you want to use grads? If so, then you need to choose between the smaller/cheaper P-System, and 100mm type.

Or, you can do what I do, which is a screw-in CPL and a screw-in 10-stops ND, and blend bracketed exposures to get the grad effect in post.
 
HoppyUK said:
Let's make this easier.

Do you want to use grads? If so, then you need to choose between the smaller/cheaper P-System, and 100mm type.

Or, you can do what I do, which is a screw-in CPL and a screw-in 10-stops ND, and blend bracketed exposures to get the grad effect in post.
Click to expand...

Apologies for sounding dense - but how come I can't just buy a 77mm ND grad, polariser etc and use that?
 
WillNicholls said:
Apologies for sounding dense - but how come I can't just buy a 77mm ND grad
Click to expand...

The horizon will be stuck in the middle of the frame and you won't be able to adjust it. This is the best thing about the square filters, you can have the graduation line in any part of the frame (within reason).
 
robhooley167 said:
The horizon will be stuck in the middle of the frame and you won't be able to adjust it. This is the best thing about the square filters, you can have the graduation line in any part of the frame (within reason).
Click to expand...

I seeeeee. But everything other type that isn't grad, just get a normal 77cm circular?
 
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