Large Format photography group - From "zero to hero!"

It's just a few days until I can use my Intrepid MK3 birthday present. I think I have an understanding of reciprocity failure and have been trying out theoretical exposure with the use of an app that compensates for this (I've been surprised to see how much this increases exposure time on Foma 400).

This has thrown up a couple of other exposure related questions:
1- will use of a yellow filter require any compensation adjustment? If so 1/3, 1/2 stop etc?
2. I'll be using a 135mm lens. When would a Bellows Extension Factor come into play? I've tried to research this but I don't really get this concept. If anyone has a straight forward explanation or link to this it would be very helpful. Thanks

Congratulations, I reckon you're about 8 weeks ahead of me :)

Yellow filter, as any filter with density, will require some exposure compensation. as to how much, i'm dredging my memory banks here from 30 years ago, but I think there are different strengths of yellow filter which will have different compensation values,. If I am correct then the value will be marked on the filter or its case somewhere, if I'm wrong, someone will correct me shortly :)

Bellows extension......I'll be watching for your answers with interest.

Which app are you using for reciprocity failure calculation?
 
I've just played around with the formulae for close up photography to give you a sense of perspective. One of the simplest methods of calculating the increase to to calculate the effective aperture of the lens (e.g. at 1:1, lifesize, you need 2 stops extra so the effective aperture is the marked value x2 - f/8 on the lens gives the expected exposure at f/16. If this is confusing - it might be - the result follows.

Using a 150mm lens with a subject 6 feet away, the effective aperture is given by 1.09f, so f/8 gives the exposure you'd expect at f/8.72. Most people wouldn't bother to do anything for this small amount.

My practice is if the subject is 6 feet or more away, do nothing; if getting closer but not what I'd call macro, add half a stop; if closer but not a lifesize image, add a stop etc. That's in theory - for the distances I use it's either ignore or add a half stop.

Edit to add:
The equation I used was simple as it involves no squares and square roots. If the magnification is M and the marked aperture is f, the effective aperture E is given by

E = (1 + M)f

There is an approximation involved to give this simple equation, but we'll ignore that (it usually only matters if you're reversing a non symmetrical lens).
 
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Another way of looking at exposure increase (I'm now thinking of Woodsy's explanation) uses the idea of effective aperture. The aperture is expressed as f/8 (for example) to indicate it is a fraction. Specifically, in this instance, the diameter of the lens opening is 1/8 the film to lens distance, true only for infinity focus. As the lens is moved out more, f becomes smaller and more exposure is needed. It's arithmetically simple, especially if your camera has an engraved scale on the bed to show how much extension you're using. None of my cameras do, and I don't carry a tape measure...
 
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1) Yes. It will depend upon the exact yellow filter used, but my filter (I forget which number it is) requires adding 2/3rd of a stop.
2) Two ways of looking at this. There is the technical argument, which is that after placing the lens more than it's focal length away from the film plane - the position at which the aperture value gives the correct irradiance on the film plane - bellows extension begins to have an effect. Now for most scenarios, the ideal correction to the exposure is so small, it's within the latitude of even slide film, and hence no one cares. However, the question is *when* does bellow extension need to be considered, or rather, at what extension. The inverse square law states that doubling the distance of the lens from the film plane equates to a drop in intensity to 25% of the original intensity, and hence a 2 stop increase in exposure is required (assuming this does not fall into the region where reciprocity is also required). For colour negative films like portra 160, 1 stop over or under exposure will likely not affect the colours of the reproduction by any significant degree, and will still give a fine result overall. From vague memory, and I think due to the symmetry of the problem, a drop of intensity requiring a 1 stop increase correction equates to the lens being the square root of 2 times the focal length away from the film plane (about 1.4(14) * 135mm, or 191mm). Do check this though, as it's early and my brain is not functioning on all coffee fuelled cylinders right now!

For slide film, I'd start adding correction at around +1/3rd to +1/2 of a stop required correction, as this will render in the slide, especially if the dynamic range of the scene is pushing towards the dynamic range of the film. In other words, not adding correction would potentially yield dense shadows. Take care however, as blown highlights are considerably harder to deal with than darker shadows in my experience.

Thanks Woodsy for both the filter reply and especially the bellows extension reply - the effect in most scenarios is so small "hence no one cares" was the answer I was hoping for!:)

I've been trying an exposure app that includes reciprocity failure called Inverso - however it will only calculate if you include a bellows length at or above lens focal length. I reckon it's making things to complicated for me. 4x5 is going to be tricky enough without taking a tape measure to the bellows as well!!
 
Congratulations, I reckon you're about 8 weeks ahead of me :)

Yellow filter, as any filter with density, will require some exposure compensation. as to how much, i'm dredging my memory banks here from 30 years ago, but I think there are different strengths of yellow filter which will have different compensation values,. If I am correct then the value will be marked on the filter or its case somewhere, if I'm wrong, someone will correct me shortly :)

Bellows extension......I'll be watching for your answers with interest.

Which app are you using for reciprocity failure calculation?
Thanks flook999. See above for app info on Inverso free from Google play.
 
however it will only calculate if you include a bellows length at or above lens focal length
Hopefully you have got from the above that there is no bellows correction if the bellows is not extended beyond the focal length so it's only really needed for macro type shots and you will soon get a feel for when you need to start thinking about it.

This has got me wondering if "TTL" metering off the ground glass is an option, obviously different GGs will transmit different amounts of light but is there a consistent factor for a given GG which, when metered could be translated into actual exposure settings? I might do some experiments :thinking:

4x5 is going to be tricky enough
Like anything, practice, and you can of course practice with no film in the dark slide whilst still going through all the motions. Conceptually I see my 4x5 as a collection of separate parts and each one has to be set, focus, shutter, aperture, dark slide, etc.
 
TTL is possible, as is spot metering. There are (or used to be) probes that could go either side of the ground glass to spot meter. Obviously, you need to calibrate them.
 
There was a chap on here ages ago who used to use this kind of metering on the lens side of the ground glass on his 10x8. No doubt the best way to get the correct exposure (assuming correctly calibrated), but did look like a bit of a faff...
 
I have a strobe for the lunasix 3 light meter which enable readings directly from the GG.

I've used it a couple of times, one was disaster as I hadn't understood the instructions correctly ( for what dials to read on the meter), but the second effort was reasonable.

It's been a while so i would have to re learn how to do it.

It involves an additional poece of equipment ( the strobe) and without doubt is more time consuming than taking an incident reading , but in capable hands, it definetly has potential to offer very accurate metering.
 
There's a Horseman meter that slips into the back like a filmholder, but I've no idea how accurate it is and Google suggests there may be obsolete battery issues.
 
I guess I was thinking of using something like a digital camera pointed at the ground glass...

I know, I know :sorry: off to cleanse my mind of these impure thoughts
 
What Asha and I both have is a Lunasix 3 and a fibre optic probe Gossen called a Mess Sonde (from memory, I don't have the box in front of me). I think Gossen indicated it could also be used to check negative densities.

Also from memory, Sinar made the probe that went in front of the ground glass.
 
Well, the Gossen one isn't hard - it's flexible :p

Gossen could get away with this because the Lunasix was incredibly sensitive - never surpassed, as far as I know. The loss of light involved in taking readings from a very small and potentially very dark area meant it had to be.

Spot metering in any form requires higher light levels than incident or wide area reflective. My Sekonic spot meter could give an incident reading in one church, but failed to register anything when swapped to spot mode.

So do factor in the required sensitivity - or try buying a Lunasix and the appropriate attachment. Warning though - Lunasixes cost about £39 last year, but the current price is £49.
 
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Just did some basic trials, I placed a piece of black card against a white wall, shined (shone?) a light at it and set up the camera so it was half/half black and white on the ground glass. I tried two meters, the one on my phone and my Sekonic. The first point to note is that due to bezels, rebates, etc. neither could be held completely flat against the GG. First test was to see if there was a difference between the light and dark halves of the image and there was a significant difference, good start. Next test was to stop the lens down and see if the meter changed accordingly and on the white side of the image they did change by one stop for each lens stop. Things were a bit more hit and miss on the darker side but that could be the effects of ambient etc. even though I was using the dark cloth.

Final test was trying using the phone in front of the GG. This was a bit of a faff and there was no difference between the white side and the dark side of the image, think this is because the phone camera was focusing on the back of the LF camera lens and the lens board etc. and hence detected no difference.

From this very rough and quick trial, some sort of light pipe with the phone camera on the end (or may be even the Sekonic meter on the end) would seem fairly viable. If this plague continues much longer I might get sufficiently bored to have a try.

BTW and again very roughly, 1600iso metering on the back of the GG was equating to 100iso for the metered scene for my pretty dim ground glass.

And a final thought, could the phone to be used as focusing loupe? More trials for another evening...
 
I may report myself for this reply but in the spirit of your investigations....

Set up a mirrorless digital camera inside your darkcloth, with the image displayed on a computer in the light. Use the on screen image (magnified of course) to adjust the focus while you're in the light, and the camera settings (suitably calibrated) to set the exposure.

Wasn't Steve looking into some sort of exposure metering from a ground glass some time ago?
 
I was originally thinking of using the EM5 for metering but I'm liking that idea as I can WiFi the EM5 to my phone so use it like that in the field. If only there wasn't a dirty great 4x5 in the way I might even get a decent photo :LOL:
 
I may report myself for this reply but in the spirit of your investigations....

Set up a mirrorless digital camera inside your darkcloth, with the image displayed on a computer in the light. Use the on screen image (magnified of course) to adjust the focus while you're in the light, and the camera settings (suitably calibrated) to set the exposure.

Wasn't Steve looking into some sort of exposure metering from a ground glass some time ago?

I did design an integrated spot meter into one of the original rear Chroma bodies, but at the time it wasn’t something I progressed.

Since getting to know Matt from ReveniLabs, we did some testing between us, of a mount for his Reveni meter, which allowed the meter to be pressed up flush against the ground glass. Unfortunately, the testing wasn’t massively successful as, even with a relatively bright f5.6 lens, the light falloff at the GG meant that the meter wasn’t able to obtain consistent results across the frame (I was hopeful for a spot meter style performance).
 
Obviously wasting a sheet but simply is pic 1 the right way in for the film?IMG_20201201_194103759.jpg

Foma 400 leaflet says matt side is emulsion. Other side is shiny and green (pic 2) so I'm guessing pic1 is correct.
IMG_20201201_194147780.jpg
 
Only very slightly OT, but I see the ex-demo Intrepid 8x10 Mk 2 just sold for £530 without even a lensboard on the auction site, and it's only £480 for a new one. Saved the 6-8 weeks delivery time I suppose, but good to see that level of interest in LF. (y)

How nuts is that!

As an ex demo it sold with no warranty yet someone happy or dim enough to pay 50 quid over the cost of a brand new one with choice of colour and warranty.

Whatever!
 
How nuts is that!

As an ex demo it sold with no warranty yet someone happy or dim enough to pay 50 quid over the cost of a brand new one with choice of colour and warranty.

Whatever!

Christmas present? Still, Chistmas has, I understand been put back to July, so no rush...
 
Christmas present? Still, Chistmas has, I understand been put back to July, so no rush...

Quite possible, i suppose but still nuts lol

Christmas ..... there’s a huge Santa stood on a roof in the village to try fool us into believing that Xmas is still on the cards when in actual fact he’s a spy keeping track of the movements of locals during lockdown. :LOL:

i might just have to photograph him.
 
The notch goes top right or bottom left, so yes the first picture is correct.

I think it's worth adding to your description that what you state is true for portrait orientation, otherwise this is confusing if people assume landscape orientation, as per the picture.
 
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Of course you are correct but I suppose it depends about how you think about the DDS when it's in the dark bag, for me the loading end of the DDS is the top because that is how I hold it when I am loading it. I mainly shoot in landscape orientation but that does not alter how I load.
 
It does indeed matter the orientation of the film holder, as even my 2 books describe it slightly differently! Hope this helps rather than confuses! ;)

20201202_160543-tp.jpg

20201202_160331-tp.jpg
 
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Film notch bottom right when in landscape orientation..... nowt to get confused about imo.
If right handed like me, the natural way to load is to put holder on table in landscape orientation with hinged opening to the rhs.
‘Load film from that side with right hand .
close darkslide with left hand.
It’s not a complicated procedure unless one wishes to make it as such.
 
Just did some basic trials, I placed a piece of black card against a white wall, shined (shone?) a light at it and set up the camera so it was half/half black and white on the ground glass. I tried two meters, the one on my phone and my Sekonic. The first point to note is that due to bezels, rebates, etc. neither could be held completely flat against the GG. First test was to see if there was a difference between the light and dark halves of the image and there was a significant difference, good start. Next test was to stop the lens down and see if the meter changed accordingly and on the white side of the image they did change by one stop for each lens stop. Things were a bit more hit and miss on the darker side but that could be the effects of ambient etc. even though I was using the dark cloth.

Final test was trying using the phone in front of the GG. This was a bit of a faff and there was no difference between the white side and the dark side of the image, think this is because the phone camera was focusing on the back of the LF camera lens and the lens board etc. and hence detected no difference.

From this very rough and quick trial, some sort of light pipe with the phone camera on the end (or may be even the Sekonic meter on the end) would seem fairly viable. If this plague continues much longer I might get sufficiently bored to have a try.

BTW and again very roughly, 1600iso metering on the back of the GG was equating to 100iso for the metered scene for my pretty dim ground glass.

And a final thought, could the phone to be used as focusing loupe? More trials for another evening...
How about adapting one of those endoscope attachment for a mobile phone? I think they use fibre optics and would be able to measure a small area on the gg. Advantageously they don't autofocus.
 
On film loading, I have the holder in portrait orientation on the bench, opening end towards me, and insert to have the notches on the left. Having the notches at the open end makes it easier for me to distinguish empty from exposed holders by running my finger along the bottom.

On fibre optic probes, that's what Gossen did. The problem I could see with a mobile phone (mine doesn't even have a camera, very basic £10 job from ASDA) is potentially insufficient sensitivity to register. But that's a doubt born of total ignorance of the technology.
 
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I was just experimenting with this, a small cardboard tube, square in section an about 2" long fitted into the phone case. I'm not convinced it worked for metering because stopping down two stops didn't seem to cause the meter app to go down two stops. But it does make an excellent focusing loupe - just zoom in the phone camera on the opening and it was very clear when things were in focus.

DSC03013.jpg
 
is potentially insufficient sensitivity to register
Not at all, most phone cameras are optimised for shooting selfies in night clubs and food in dimly lit restaurants ;)

In testing the above device I put my finger over the end just in domestic lighting to see what the light meter went down to and got a nice pink image on the screen as if I was shining a bright torch through my finger. I successfully used it for focusing on the GG when stopped down to f16, beyond f16 the phone was struggling to focus due to lack of light.
 
I was just experimenting with this, a small cardboard tube, square in section an about 2" long fitted into the phone case. I'm not convinced it worked for metering because stopping down two stops didn't seem to cause the meter app to go down two stops. But it does make an excellent focusing loupe - just zoom in the phone camera on the opening and it was very clear when things were in focus.

View attachment 300658

How have you attached that tube to the camera case/ lens?..... just some tape?
 
How have you attached that tube to the camera case/ lens?..... just some tape?
It's just slotted in behind the phone case, the tube has a wide flange on the bottom that is larger than the cut-out in the case which sits between the case and the phone if that makes sense
 
just to add that I think I would make something more robust for use in the field but this OK for trials
 
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