I'm not sure that this is much help, but from the Ilford Monochrome Darkroom Practice manual:
View attachment 295128
Possibly a red herring here Woodsy, but Barry Thornton has views on hardening fixer if you happened to use one?It’s odd though, at least so far from what I’ve seen in my negs, the damage is sporadic over the age of the negs. For instance, of say 4-6 negs taken on a single trip that were very likely processed in the same tank/process, only one shows signs of damage or degradation (I’m still not 100% sure what’s going on in my case). If it were a bad batch of film, I’d expect to see a more convincing correlation in what frames are damaged. I’d expect to see similar damage on multiple frames from the same development though, if indeed the process is at fault - unless my technique is on the verge of fault, and in which case just a single frame being damaged from a single development is just bad luck (Especially after so long)?
Quick wash with water to remove dust,
Stand in fixer solution 1:4 at room temp for 10 mins,
Thorough wash in water,
Then leave to dry.
Is there any risk to any negatives, new or old, in doing so?
For what it's worth, the way I washed my negatives back in the 1960s, was 6 changes of water at 5 minute intervals. First wash at processing temperature, then dropping a little until I finished with water from the cold tap.
Films Spiral tank processing method For minimal water usage the following method is well tested;
• After fixing, fill the spiral tank with water at the same temperature, +/- 5ºC (9ºF), as the processing solutions. Invert the tank 5 times.
• Drain the water away and refill. Invert the tank 10 times.
• Once more, drain the water. Invert the tank twenty times and drain the water away.
• Finally rinse with a few drops of ILFORD ILFOTOL Wetting Agent (1:200) added to the rinse water
I use a slightly modified version of the Ilford wash method with inversions of 7, 14, 21 & 30 times with water very close to 20C
I've got the motor base ............. I actually take the lid off for washing and make sure that the sheets aren't sticking to the Orbital, so that the chems are washed off the rear of the sheet as well as the emulsion side. I wash for 1 minute, 2 mins, 4 mins and 6 mins.,What about with the orbital processor , do you agitate all the time through rinse?
Tap water temp- I'm Farhrenheit throughout
What brand of film is it Woodsy, or are there different brands? If there are any affected Ilford negs it would probably be worthwhile dropping an email to their tech people as the're very helpful.
There's an email contact link on this page for when the FAQs don't have the answer.
No risk that I'm aware of.
I've actually done that exact process myself with no problems.
May i suggest however that as none of us can 100% confirm the cause to the stains on the negs, that you do this initially with one "lesser important" neg and wait say a minimum of 24hours after drying to ensure that there is no ill side effect.
Perhaps take a photo of the neg before you begin so as to have a record that you can compare against.
This is pretty much my washing procedure too although I try and maintain the same temperature ( within a degree or two.)
I have found that if the temperature of the water is too low, it is actually less effective at absorbing / removing the residue chemicals.
I presume this is same when washing prints, hence i try and maintain a fairly stable wash temperture.
Just out of curiosity, do you guys agitate throughout the rinse cycle or not.?
Initial rinse for me is generally very quick, like a half minute or so with continual agitation....this i feel removes the bulk of the residue sat on the negative and in the tank.
After that I follow Stephens 5 minute ( aprroximative) method but folowing the first or second change of water, I reduce the amount of agitation, instead leaving the negative to 'soak' .
I learnt from somewhere / somebody, yonks ago that agitation doesn't actually offer any real benefit to the removal of chemical residue, it is simply the duration of contact with water that has the effect of diluting, thus removing the chems.
Like most methods, it is open to debate......
I use a slightly modified version of the Ilford wash method with inversions of 7, 14, 21 & 30 times with water very close to 20C
Tap water temp- I'm Farhrenheit throughout, using 68 degrees for all the procrsses. Apart from anything elsr, I only have thermometers that use that scale. Water temperature probably varies by region and season, but on the one occasion I measured, it was 54 F. Which just happens to be the temperature below which a common developing agent doesn't work.
On agitation in washing, when using the six changes method, I worked on the assumption that removing the chemicals was like washing anything else of - new water, lift and lower the reel a few times to force the water through and make sure the chemical carry over in the water from the previous wash that remained behind was thoroughly diluted.
Chemically, all you have to do is achieve an equilibrium where there's so much in the water that no more will come out of the film, and then swap the water again.
Using the Ilford method, I do agitate a little more than specified, using water at 68 degrees. After washing, there's a final rinse in distilled water and wetting agent, so another chance to remove chemicals.
Over fixing can remove some of the silver image, but we're not measuring this in minutes, more hours. In fairness, I've only ever observed this once, and that was with a print, not film. I left it in the fixer while making more prints...
Fixer dilution is an interesting one. As far as I know, it shouldn't have any deleterious effect if it clears the film. Which reminds me, I always go by the double the clearing time, and when the clearing time doubles, throw the fixer. I haven't used the films that require longer fixing though.
Back on water temperature. I was taught that low temperatures shrink the emulsion, making it harder for the water to get in (and chemicals to get out).
Presumably, if you want hardened negatives, and still want to use non hardening fixer, you finish with a formaldehyde bath. I'm pretty sure formulae are all over the place for one.
I tend to process in the evening and dry the film overnight. As someone who feels the cold, my go-to temperature for the central heating is 19C, and mixing (coffee paper) filtered tap water to 20C takes minimal time. It pretty much maintains itself after that, plus it only needs 2 litres for 4 changes of wash water on a 120 film, so a suitably sized jug works for that. The stop and fix are already mixed and only need to be set out for a while in their bottles to reach room temperature. I'm not sure that it's any more effort than most, but domestic harmony may benefit from agreement on timing and frequency!Ok, so it would appear that my washing using water straight from the tap may well be a big part of the issue. I've not measured it, but I imagine it's a fair bit colder than the 20 degree water I achieve for the developer. In degrees C, I would be surprised if it were much above 16-17 right now, though I shall measure it.
In light of all of this, I feel that my processing technique is really rather minimal in effort. Perhaps I should start taking it a bit more seriously, especially to avoid problems like this in the future!
I'm amazed at these fix times! I've never fixed for more than 5 minutes; clearing time for an exposed leader in a saucer is usually about a minute (Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+4). But I do agitate (rotate in the Rondinax in my case) throughout....
In case it's relevant, I use Ilford Rapid fixer. Reading the point about temperature, I do simply wash with water from the cold tap. I assume that this is around 15-20 degrees depending on the season? In general, I tend to fix for about 12-15 mins in 1:4 (fix:water) solution rather than 1:9. I don't know why, it's just what I've always done. I also agitate by inversion for approximately 10s per minute - the same as I do during the developing stage.
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Incomplete fixing
inadequate washing post fix.
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Stand in fixer solution 1:4 at room temp for 10 mins,
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Edit. Well, that pushed my postcount up! Sorry for monopolising the thread.
I’ve been using the Ilford washing technique for the past few years, I fill three large jugs when I start developing and let the wash water come up to room temperature. I think gives me better results. Tap water, particularly in the winter, can be very cold straight out of the tap and despite me trying to regulate it with some from the hot tap it was never consistent. It also saves wasting a lot of water.It's a mixture. I started shooting Adox CHS 25, then moved to Acros, and now I'm rationing my remaining Acros, and hence shooting Delta 100. So far, the damage is only to the adox and acros, but I suspect this is due to their respective ages more than anything else, if all else is constant.
Excellent, thanks for confirming. Yep, the plan was to only test a few of the damaged ones to begin with, and I was indeed going to take before and after photos
So at work, I do a little bit of wet bench work in the cleanrooms, as we have to etch off semiconductor substrates to release our sample structure of interest. I appreciate an etch process is different from a diffusion or dilution process, but in order to achieve uniform etch rates, we have to use magnetic stirrers. This acts to strip away the layers that have reacted, revealing fresh substrate material to the etchant. I appreciate this example is not perfectly analogous, but if the process of removing a (relatively) highly concentrated chemical from a material relies on a diffusion mechanism, I would ere on the side of agitation being effective until such a time that the relative concentrations in the material and water are slowing the progress to the desired result.
Ok, so it would appear that my washing using water straight from the tap may well be a big part of the issue. I've not measured it, but I imagine it's a fair bit colder than the 20 degree water I achieve for the developer. In degrees C, I would be surprised if it were much above 16-17 right now, though I shall measure it.
In light of all of this, I feel that my processing technique is really rather minimal in effort. Perhaps I should start taking it a bit more seriously, especially to avoid problems like this in the future!
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Does this mean that Woodsy's more concentrated than specified fixer strength plus longer than needed times - fresh rapid fixer probably does the job in 2 minutes at normal dilution - could have a bearing on the stains?
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I don't think Jonathan's 1+4 dilution is "more concentrated than specified"... Ilford's document says:
"For all film fixing applications ILFORD RAPID FIXER is diluted 1+4 with water.
For use as a fixer in paper processing machines ILFORD RAPID FIXER is diluted 1+4 with water but for manual fixing applications it can be diluted either 1+4 or 1+9."
Thanks for the correction. I didn't check the Ilford information and made an assumption based on the phrase "1:4 rather than1:9". I should never assume anything.
Pedantry point sorry: 1+4 (20%) rather than 1:4 (25%). I'll go now....Thanks for the correction. I didn't check the Ilford information and made an assumption based on the phrase "1:4 rather than1:9". I should never assume anything.