Leica M-D - the $6k camera with no screen...

Well this thread escalated quickly :/

Ignoring insults etc and moving on back to the OP, I do struggle to see why Leica charge more or the same without the screen as it's less technology that needs to be installed and coded for ultimately. It would have been nice to see some sort of saving over the 240 or 262
 
Andrew, its a shame its not cheaper but I suppose that the rub of something being different. I doubt they will sell loads but I would prefer a screen, doesn't have to be brilliant as long as it has Wi-Fi because my mobile screen is bigger. Its good that a company does things like this camera and of course Fuji Canon etc. for their camera development too. Until the other brands make something as good for less this is the problem we face high Leica prices.
 
Andrew, its a shame its not cheaper but I suppose that the rub of something being different. I doubt they will sell loads but I would prefer a screen, doesn't have to be brilliant as long as it has Wi-Fi because my mobile screen is bigger. Its good that a company does things like this camera and of course Fuji Canon etc. for their camera development too. Until the other brands make something as good for less this is the problem we face high Leica prices.
They already make *better* for a lot less, let alone "as good"? That's half the problem.
 
I fundamentally disagree... Leica cameras are a textbook Veblen good. They had sales of €365 million last year, what possible maths supports them being such a low volume producer with a sales figure like that?

Regardless of whether they're bought as jewelry or by enthusiasts, they're still status symbols; their sensors don't outperform the market leaders and their lenses are not physics-defying miracles. There is no functional ability of these cameras that can't be done elsewhere at much lower prices. There is no practical reason to buy a (modern) Leica camera.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with wanting one or buying one, but let's not pretend that the prices make any sense objectively, any moreso than a Land Rover does for the school run or a Rolex does for telling the time.

As I understand it Nikon's camera revenues are maybe 50 times Leica's US$300 million - if you look at the average unit cost obviously Nikon produce many many more units than Nikon.
Leica indeed seem to be on the up, starting when it de-listed, but this has not always been the case and Nikon have been up and down in the last few years ... US$300mm is not a high Revenue figure

Both manufacturers produce other equipment,

without any doubt, in relative terms

" the selling price of the M cameras reflects the high costs of low production runs and the the high element of specialist labour included in their costs versus the mass market and large product range of say Nikon or Canon who produce many of their products in low labour costs countries"

I stick to that statement

been trying to think of comparisons, but they are all German

I was until a few years ago an active fan of BMW Motor Bikes - I have had maybe 12 different models, from the R60/5 to the R1250GSA, (I still have 3 that I cannot part with), - if you look at the history since say the early 1950's you will see that they cost 2 or 3 times the prices of British and then Jap Bikes, but their design and sophistication changed very little particularly post war to the mid 1980's, i.e. with the Airhead Models, but even today the basic design has remained with Oilseeds and Hexheads
The BMW motor cycle division has always been a low production, high cost operation, but IMHO their Bike have always been the best in the world.

Do you think that they were bought mainly as status symbols by the rich - they were/are twice as heavy as Jap Bike, twice as expensive and far less sophisticated - I certainly did not buy them as such and much preferred as used BMW to a new "Rice Burner"

The price of even the basic VW Beetle was more expensive than a far more kitted up British car as were the BMW 2000 series produced in the 1970' and 1980's - these German manufacturers had up and down financial performance - but they had faith in their products and design and they kept going and history has provided them right ...... people still bought them and they were not celebs

Compare this with what happened in the UK
 
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They already make *better* for a lot less, let alone "as good"? That's half the problem.

Point me in the direction of these digital full frame range finder cameras, that are better and cost less with out video etc. I might buy one tomorrow.
 
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Point me in the direction of these digital full frame range finder cameras, that are better and cost less with out video etc. I might buy one tomorrow.
I meant better cameras full stop, not RFs.
 
Well Jim, thats the problem here, you cant compare a Leica RF to any other digital camera, its just stupid to try, the cost is unimportant to the argument.
 
Well Jim, thats the problem here, you cant compare a Leica RF to any other digital camera, its just stupid to try, the cost is unimportant to the argument.
I disagree about the cost, if the hypothetical you must have a retro style RF camera, why not buy an original RF camera for a fraction of the price. You've also then got no rear screen without paying an additional premium on top of that ;)

Or, are their target market not *quite* as purist as they think, and can't live without digital?!
 
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I disagree about the cost, if the hypothetical you must have a retro style RF camera, why not buy an original RF camera for a fraction of the price. You've also then got no rear screen without paying an additional premium on top of that ;)

Or, are their target market not *quite* as purist as they think, and can't live without digital?!

I'm not getting into name calling and slanging. Just wanted to say that first as typing on screen just isn't the same as talking to someone. So, Jim, in good spirit and being friendly and all... You seem to have posted criticism of Leica a few times and I do wonder, why?

I've had RF's and I don't have any now but I can still see the appeal and whilst I'd never pay the prices Leica ask I do see the appeal and can appreciate why people buy them be it to use or just fondle or stick in a glass case. Buyers choice.

I do wonder why you've mention Leica a few times now. If it's in an effort to understand the appeal and the market then I'm sure some have tried. I just think that repeated apparent criticism, if that is indeed what you're doing, of a product / brand / market that just isn't for you isn't getting us anywhere.

Just sayin.
:D
 
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I disagree about the cost, if the hypothetical you must have a retro style RF camera, why not buy an original RF camera for a fraction of the price. You've also then got no rear screen without paying an additional premium on top of that ;)

Or, are their target market not *quite* as purist as they think, and can't live without digital?!

Ahh but then you'd be back into film, which even for those of us who've shot film for years, it's now considered an all too cumbersome process for many.
 
I'm not getting into name calling and slanging. Just wanted to say that first as typing on screen just isn't the same as talking to someone. So, Jim, in good spirit and being friendly and all... You seem to have posted criticism of Leica a few times and I do wonder, why?

I've had RF's and I don't have any now but I can still see the appeal and whilst I'd never pay the prices Leica ask I do see the appeal and can appreciate why people buy them be it to use or just fondle or stick in a glass case. Buyers choice.

I do wonder why you've mention Leica a few times now. If it's in an effort to understand the appeal and the market then I'm sure some have tried. I just think that repeated apparent criticism, if that is indeed what you're doing, of a product / brand / market that just isn't for you isn't getting us anywhere.

Just sayin.
:D


I've mentioned them a few times indeed (though in fairness I'm not alone there?). I started this thread as I thought it was interesting, and actually reinforced why I don't like Leica as a company (note, I'm not saying I don't *like* their cameras or lenses!).

I explained why I don't like the company philosophy in previous postings - their pricing is frankly ridiculous, given what you actually get, the Leica M-D is almost a parody of that. A ridiculously priced camera, priced even more ridiculously because they've taken features away. It's not like a track car, where doing so has improved performance. They just do it because that's what they do. And now they sell overpriced key rings and ball point pens too...

People buying them and even collecting them is another thread :)
 
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I've mentioned them a few times indeed (though in fairness I'm not alone there?). I started this thread as I thought it was interesting, and actually reinforced why I don't like Leica as a company (note, I'm not saying I don't *like* their cameras or lenses!).

I explained why I don't like the company philosophy in previous postings - their pricing is frankly ridiculous, given what you actually get, the Leica M-D is almost a parody of that. A ridiculously priced camera, priced even more ridiculously because they've taken features away. It's not like a track car, where doing so has improved performance. They just do it because that's what they do. And now they sell overpriced key rings and ball point pens too...

People buying them and even collecting them is another thread :)

I can see where you're coming from and indeed I agree with much of it.

I don't know what the way forward is with threads like this though as like you I like to raise an old favourite and maybe have a bit of a rant now and again but these things often don't go well as not everyone sees it all as just a friendly discussion or even just light hearted ribbing... some seem to take it a bit far. A shame IMO.
 
I'm old now - but go out on my BMW Bike now and again - it is wonderful, lots of money sitting around for less than 1,000 miles per year - insurance cost, etc...... it was expensive ...... but it's a joy in the right conditions in the Spring and Summer ........ I use my wife Skoda Fabia a lot more better for shopping and get from A to B ......... but which experience to I enjoy more?

Should I sell it or not buy a new one to do the same if I wanted to

i really enjoy cleaning the Bike, the car goes through the car wash

Do I appreciate wine from a bottle more than from a carafe ...........Does wine from a bottle generally taste better than from a carafe ...... for me it does ......... but who knows

we are all different and appreciate different things, fortunately within reason lots of us can buy stuff our parents could not

Don't knock it, celebrate it

(I seldom use my M8 and now never use my M6 ........ I have a look at it now and again, as the Bishop said to the Actress, just to make sure it's still there)
 
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I can see where you're coming from and indeed I agree with much of it.

I don't know what the way forward is with threads like this though as like you I like to raise an old favourite and maybe have a bit of a rant now and again but these things often don't go well as not everyone sees it all as just a friendly discussion or even just light hearted ribbing... some seem to take it a bit far. A shame IMO.
Bar one comment (which I thought was completely unnecessary and out of the blue!) I think it's been ok so far (retreats into the dark...)
 
I'm old now - but go out on my BMW Bike now and again - it is wonderful, lots of money sitting around for less than 1,000 miles per year - insurance cost, etc...... it was expensive ...... but it's a joy in the right conditions in the Spring and Summer ........ I use my wife Skoda Fabia a lot more for better for shopping and get from A to B ......... but which experience to I enjoy more?

Should I sell it or not buy a new one to do the same if I wanted to

i really enjoy cleaning the Bike, the car goes through the car wash

Do I appreciate wine from a bottle more than from a carafe ...........Does wine from a bottle generally taste better than from a carafe ...... for me it does ......... but who knows

we are all different and appreciate different things, fortunately within reason lots of us can buy stuff our parents could not

Don't knock it, celebrate it

(I seldom use my M8 and now never use my M6 ........ I have a look at it now and again, as the Bishop said to the Actress, just to make sure it's still there)
But there's a reason you prefer going out on the bike, it's a **wholly** different experience and the money, as expensive as it is, you're actually getting in material costs.

Do Leica users enjoys experience more or is it a placebo? Is the experience that much different from using a FF DSLR or, say a Fuji x100?
 
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But there's a reason you prefer going out on the bike, it's a wholly different experience and the money, as expensive as it is, you're actually getting in material costs.

Do Leica users enjoys experience more or is it a placebo?

I would saw that using a Leica is a very enjoyable experience

my wife goes to the local market every Saturday when we are here ....... I hardly ever go, but when I do I take the M8, I may get a good shot or two ..... a shot that I would never have got with my DSLR and probably not with my small Canon

here's the last a few weeks ago

I seem to remember more of the shots when taken with the M8 more than the "spray and pray" birds etc., taken with the DSLR
OK you may say that I could have taken this shot with any old camera, but that if true of most - I am only an average photography

market_man.jpg
 
I would saw that using a Leica is a very enjoyable experience

my wife goes to the local market every Saturday when we are here ....... I hardly ever go, but when I do I take the M8, I may get a good shot or two ..... a shot that I would never have got with my DSLR and probably not with my small Canon

here's the last a few weeks ago

I seem to remember more of the shots when taken with the M8 more than the "spray and pray" birds etc., taken with the DSLR
OK you may say that I could have taken this shot with any old camera, but that if true of most - I am only an average photography

market_man.jpg
I honestly can't see why that couldn't be captured with any camera (unless he's laughing at the price you paid for it, lol!!!)? In all seriousness, maybe the Leica just gives you more confidence for some reason?
 
But there's a reason you prefer going out on the bike, it's a **wholly** different experience and the money, as expensive as it is, you're actually getting in material costs.

Do Leica users enjoys experience more or is it a placebo? Is the experience that much different from using a FF DSLR or, say a Fuji x100?

Jim, for me, using a Leica M6 was a very different experience than using a DSLR as they're totally different kinds of camera. If we're talking about quality and feel you can't compare an X100 to a Leica. I had an X100 and whilst I loved the images the build quality is not even comparable to a Leica. As for comparing Leica digital IQ to that of Fuji, I don't know so can't comment. I've never used a digital M, though I'd like to at some point. At the moment my X-T1 covers all my needs so that will be some time in the distant future, I suspect.
 
I honestly can't see why that couldn't be captured with any camera? Maybe the Leica just gives you more confidence for some reason?

as i said it could have been captured with any camera, maybe ...... do you think that i would have got the same reaction had I stuck a DSLR in his face?

would I have got that shot at 1/60th and less, (down to 1/20sec) - would I have got that shot as quickly on a f9.5 setting and infinity - or fumbled around with the DSLR to change this and that

I did not need to look at the rear screen - I just set the thing at infinity and f8 and work from there . the Leica is extremely quick to use, so fortunately I captured his smile and gesture

as I said I am just an ordinary photographer - the question to be asked is "could I have got that shot with any old camera" - not could this shot have been taken with any old camera and would I have enjoyed the experience as much and because of this did the image benefit

On your confidence point - I think that it is the reverse - if you look at my bird shots, they are all about technical quality, hardly any passion or artistic element ..the DSLR digital machine takes over and I have confidence in it ... it is far better than me for producing images of that type
 
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as i said it could have been captured with any camera, maybe ...... do you think that i would have got the same reaction had I stuck a DSLR in his face?

would I have got that shot at 1/60th and less, (down to 1/20sec) - would I have got that shot as quickly on a f9.5 setting and infinity - or fumbled around with the DSLR to change this and that

I did not need to look at the rear screen - I just set the thing at infinity and f8 and work from there . the Leica is extremely quick to use, so fortunately I captured his smile and gesture

as I said I am just an ordinary photographer - the question to be asked is "could I have got that shot with any old camera" - not could this shot have been taken with any old camera and would I have enjoyed the experience as much and because of this did the image benefit
I'm wondering if what I mentioned above has an effect here - the placebo. I'd think he was reacting to *you*, not the camera. Most people don't know the difference between a Leica, Olympus Pen or a Canon 500d when it's pointed at them, and even if hey did, would it really change their reaction? :)

Why would you have been fumbling with the settings on an SLR though? No more difficult than an RF?
 
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I'm wondering if what I mentioned above has an effect here - the placebo. I'd think he was reacting to *you*, not the camera. Most people don't know the difference between a Leica, Olympus Pen or a Canon 500d when it's pointed at them, and even if hey did, would it really change their reaction? :)

maybe your are right - but it is not about him surely, it is about me
 
I'm wondering if what I mentioned above has an effect here - the placebo. I'd think he was reacting to *you*, not the camera. Most people don't know the difference between a Leica, Olympus Pen or a Canon 500d when it's pointed at them, and even if hey did, would it really change their reaction? :)

Why would you have been fumbling with the settings on an SLR though? No more difficult than an RF?

I think Bill meant that the Leica is quite small and charming in it's way so people are not shocked or bothered when they see it pointing in their direction. A DSLR with a standard zoom lens will likely bring a different response, which is why RFs have always been the camera of choice for street and candid photographers. They're great for getting in amongst people without them really noticing your camera.
 
I must admit I'm not into street photography so maybe that's why it's missed on me?

Either way, the M-D is ridiculously priced!
 
I must admit I'm not into street photography so maybe that's why it's missed on me?

Either way, the M-D is ridiculously priced!

The EP-1, (the first), no money these days used, with the panasonic 20mm f1.7 (first series) is very good

The new Pen is supposed to be excellent
 
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The original point of the thread - why it costs more - not the cost of the camera

Do you think that they are charging more for the model without the screen because it will cost more to produce, i.e. limited production runs, setting up modifications in the production line and similar ...... the selling price being a function of the actual production costs calculated in a typical Germanic way or "the Leica way" - (I have the book so I will look it up) .. sorry just looked the book is "The Nikon Way"
 
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I must admit I'm not into street photography so maybe that's why it's missed on me?

Either way, the M-D is ridiculously priced!

Yeah, rangefinders really come into their own in that environment. That and for low light photography they're brilliant. I guess now we also have mirrorless so they now compete with the likes of the X-Pro2 etc.. There definitely is "something" which is difficult describe about the way Leica render images that some of us fall in love with and some don't. It's a very similar "something" that gave the original X100 a cult following.
 
My guess is that if they produced a digital Nikon S today it would cost more than the Leica M ......... that's maybe why they haven't

but that would be a thing of beauty
 
The original point of the thread - why it costs more - not the cost of the camera

Do you think that they are charging more for the model without the screen because it will cost more to produce, i.e. limited production runs, setting up modifications in the production line and similar ...... the selling price being a function of the actual production costs calculated in a typical Germanic way or "the Leica way" - (I have the book so I will look it up) .. sorry just looked the book is "The Nikon Way"

My guess is that if they produced a digital Nikon S today it would cost more than the Leica M

I'm sure that is part of it, Bill. They won't sell anywhere near the same amount of these as the standard Ms and it will need an entirely new casing etc..
 
Yeah, rangefinders really come into their own in that environment. That and for low light photography they're brilliant. I guess now we also have mirrorless so they now compete with the likes of the X-Pro2 etc.. There definitely is "something" which is difficult describe about the way Leica render images that some of us fall in love with and some don't. It's a very similar "something" that gave the original X100 a cult following.

I also believe I have spoilt the image above by processing it ....... but that's another story, the downside of pp on digital images, maybe as used by the mass of us
 
I also believe I have spoilt the image above by processing it ....... but that's another story, the downside of pp on digital images, maybe as used by the mass of us

I actually really like the image above and processing tends to be a taste thing. I usually spoil the processing on mine if I've had a couple of drinks before starting as they make me a little too trigger happy. :D

With both X100 images and Leica images back when I used to shoot Leica, they always made me want to keep the images smooth and the skin tones soft as that really felt like the forte of the cameras. The rendition of skin tones and skin details was fantastic. With Nikons I used to prefer to sharpen the images and really delve into the imperfections of skin which is why for many years I shot macro with Nikons because for detail they're brilliant.

Fujifilm seem to manage to do both very well, particularly for me the X-T1. I get great detail for macro and nice tones and colours for people and landscapes and it's a small package to carry. It IS a compromise, though. If money was no object I'd probably have a Nikon Pro FF, a Leica M and a Fujifilm system but that's probably £30-40k tied up in equipment, which is a lot for an enthusiast and difficult to justify.
 
Nikon S4 - just been looking back at them

https://www.cameraquest.com/nrfs4.htm

should have bought one a few years ago when they were reasonable prices . the black bodies just look "magic"

why don't Nikon produce a digital S - they have the money and the ability?

They have a new SP (film of course) at greys of W for £5k

http://www.graysofwestminster.co.uk/products/secondhand.php?cat1=8&pg=1

in 10 years time it will be worth £10k, unused of course

let's not also forget than Nikon have produced one off digital specials at quite high prices ..... and the DF cost more than the D800
 
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Nikon S4 - just been looking back at them

https://www.cameraquest.com/nrfs4.htm

should have bought one a few years ago when they were reasonable prices . the black bodies just look "magic"

why don't Nikon produce a digital S - they have the money and the ability?

They have a new SP (film of course) at greys of W for £5k

http://www.graysofwestminster.co.uk/products/secondhand.php?cat1=8&pg=1

in 10 years time it will be worth £10k, unused of course

let's not also forget than Nikon have produced one off digital specials at quite high prices ..... and the DF cost more than the D800

It wouldn't surprise me if they were working on one, Bill. They already produced a DF, which I'm rather hankering after but resisting for the mo' and they'll have duly noted the love out there for the S type cameras.
 
Nikon S4 - just been looking back at them

https://www.cameraquest.com/nrfs4.htm

should have bought one a few years ago when they were reasonable prices . the black bodies just look "magic"

why don't Nikon produce a digital S - they have the money and the ability?

They have a new SP (film of course) at greys of W for £5k

http://www.graysofwestminster.co.uk/products/secondhand.php?cat1=8&pg=1

in 10 years time it will be worth £10k, unused of course

let's not also forget than Nikon have produced one off digital specials at quite high prices ..... and the DF cost more than the D800
That Nikon S4 is a thing of beauty - if you're into that type of thing :)
I've not seen one before this thread, so some good has come come out of it!
 
http://bokeh.digitalrev.com/article/meet-the-new-screenless-leica-m-d

Have I missed something? This seems ridiculous... A (big) feature(s) missing, costing more?

Nope, you haven't missed anything, it's just the other manufacturers have missed a massive trick. It's easily within their grasp to build a pure photography tool like this yet none do. This is how I use my X100S, everything switched off and just the OVF. It's just unfortunate that it's not a rangefinder.

The lack of digital cameras like this is the main reason I still shoot film. All you need and nothing extrenuous. Such a shame you have to pay more for all you really need.

Expensive? Yes. Worth it? No. Want it - yes!
 
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It's interesting to me that people like the rangefider so much, I'm not that much of a fan. Yes, manual lenses are nice and well made metal ones doubly so and it's so nice to set the aperture, shutter speed and these days the ISO too but the actual rangefinder, the small little bit and lining stuff up, I'm not a great fan of that or the limitations and annoyances that come with the optical RF system ( can't use long lenses, can't move the little window about, the lens intrudes into the view, what you see isn't what you get...) I'd much rather use nice lenses on a different system.

In modern times I started using old manual lenses on MFT cameras and I occasionally use them on my Sony A7 too and personally and on balance I much prefer the modern non rangefinder cameras. You can if you want still use them (modern cameras) the way people used to use RF's much of the time, not by focusing deliberately and precisely on your subject but by setting the camera up and then framing the shot and shooting. I used to use my Panasonic LXx cameras like this sometimes and of course the smaller sensor and increased depth of field helped a lot. Used this way and not having to focus and meter even quite humble (and slow to do so) modern cameras can get you grab and fast action shots. There isn't the joy of using nicely made metal lenses though with all of the tactile niceness they bring.

I'm not longing for an actual optical rangefinder way of focusing though :D
 
Nope, you haven't missed anything, it's just the other manufacturers have missed a massive trick. It's easily within their grasp to build a pure photography tool like this yet none do. This is how I use my X100S, everything switched off and just the OVF. It's just unfortunate that it's not a rangefinder.

The lack of digital cameras like this is the main reason I still shoot film. All you need and nothing extrenuous. Such a shame you have to pay more for all you really need.

Expensive? Yes. Worth it? No. Want it - yes!

That's pretty much my thinking.
 
The lack of digital cameras like this is the main reason I still shoot film. All you need and nothing extrenuous. Such a shame you have to pay more for all you really need.

I think there are a couple of reasons why manufacturers load digital cameras with "features". The mass market being what it is, every feature you add is another possible group of customers that will be attracted to your offering. Again, with digital, as opposed to mechanical, a lot of facilities are just extra bits of firmware and once you start writing routines to do 'x' the additional effort to write 'y' and 'z' is often quite cheap. I doubt that a mass production company would entertain a spartan camera because they are in a market driven by competition, whereas Leica is in a market driven by the perception of exclusivity.

It would be interesting to see the internal marketing data on their customers, to understand how many are purchasing for the facilities offered by the product and how many buy because few other people could or would spend that amount of money on the item. While I expect that Leica have a clear idea on that, I very much doubt they would tell anyone outside of their company, so this will remain a matter for speculation.
 
I think there are a couple of reasons why manufacturers load digital cameras with "features". The mass market being what it is, every feature you add is another possible group of customers that will be attracted to your offering. Again, with digital, as opposed to mechanical, a lot of facilities are just extra bits of firmware and once you start writing routines to do 'x' the additional effort to write 'y' and 'z' is often quite cheap. I doubt that a mass production company would entertain a spartan camera because they are in a market driven by competition, whereas Leica is in a market driven by the perception of exclusivity.

It would be interesting to see the internal marketing data on their customers, to understand how many are purchasing for the facilities offered by the product and how many buy because few other people could or would spend that amount of money on the item. While I expect that Leica have a clear idea on that, I very much doubt they would tell anyone outside of their company, so this will remain a matter for speculation.

I agree that a lot are trying to cast a wide net for wide appeal, that's fine and all but there are plenty of examples where camera built just for photographers have been a success. Ricoh GR springs to mind. Hopefully Voigtlander will pull their finger out and mimic the new Leica. They have the M mount lenses after all :)!

Personally I think we have reached saturation (probably surpassed) in terms of IQ & features being ostensibly good enough for even the most demanding circumstances. My predictions for the next 5-10 years;

1) Continue the retro theme to it's logical conclusion - true emulation of manual focus and film like the new Lieca.
2) Affordable medium format digital, and I mean REAL medium format, not this 'little bit bigger' than 35mm MF we have for extortionate prices.

and in 10-20 years digital large format :).

EDIT : oh, and a digital version of the Hasselblad XPan please... a real copy with 2 x 35mm sensors.
 
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I agree that a lot are trying to cast a wide net for wide appeal, that's fine and all but there are plenty of examples where camera built just for photographers have been a success. Ricoh GR springs to mind. Hopefully Voigtlander will pull their finger out and mimic the new Leica. They have the M mount lenses after all :)!

Sigma keep trying with the DPM's etc., ...... but they really have not had any success

I have a 1 and a 3 which I use maybe once a month - amazing IQ at low ISO's and 50 shots from each battery
 
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