Light meter the right tool ?

JonathanRyan said:
To the OP (yeah, there was a question there): sure, get a 308S and chuck it in your bag. As for grey cards these are kind of nice http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-lastolite-30cm-ezybalance-grey-white-card/p12332
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Yes, get a 308S. Or any other meter come to that, because in my experience all meters work equally well, all that you actually get if you spend more money is more features, and maybe an easier-to-read display.

Someone mentioned a Minolta earlier. I have 2 of them, I use the Minolta V every day and I have a much older one too, the Minolta 2, as backup. I don't use the older one much because it takes button batteries and doesn't have an auto off, but it works perfectly. The big thing about the Minolta's is that if you drop them you just pick them up and carry on using them, with cheaper makes you may have to kick the bits under the table instead - but if you look after your gear and don't employ assistants, cheaper ones are fine.
 
BarryDawsib said:
Garry, light is not light, its either controlled or it is not, flash or ambient.

So to ask the same question but with more figure to try and get a STRAIGHT answer:

Are we talking about metering for studio flash?
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Seems irrelevant to me - it might be a snoot, it might be a shoot through umbrella in a white room with white walls splashing light all over the place

If I am at a wedding, I might be balancing sunlight and hotshoe flash
Light is light, my meter measures light, flash and ambient
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes, get a 308S. Or any other meter come to that, because in my experience all meters work equally well, all that you actually get if you spend more money is more features, and maybe an easier-to-read display.

Someone mentioned a Minolta earlier. I have 2 of them, I use the Minolta V every day and I have a much older one too, the Minolta 2, as backup. I don't use the older one much because it takes button batteries and doesn't have an auto off, but it works perfectly. The big thing about the Minolta's is that if you drop them you just pick them up and carry on using them, with cheaper makes you may have to kick the bits under the table instead - but if you look after your gear and don't employ assistants, cheaper ones are fine.
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And I am happy with my Gossen F. I have used a few, they all seem to do just about the same job. As Garry says - if you treat stuff with contempt get a solid bullet proof one
 
Guess I'll add Lightmeters to my list of topics not to read in future as they seem now go down a very predictable (where's the 'yawn' smilie?) route. So I'll unsubscibe from this one and add a few more people to the ignore list ;)

Paul
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes, that's what happens, and that's why I and other people have been trying to explain why you need to measure from the subject to the camera. And why I told BarryDawsib that light is light.

Debate is healthy, but I really don't understand why it's become heated - the principle is obvious enough.
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Perhaps Garry you're notr understanding tgfhe train of my thought here. For those faces to be 2 stops under exposed then clearly the sun itself is not the main light.
 
EOS_JD said:
Perhaps Garry you're notr understanding tgfhe train of my thought here. For those faces to be 2 stops under exposed then clearly the sun itself is not the main light.
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Depends where the "main" light is
 
So here is the typical event lighting setup, meter to each light is approx f5.6 decimal 5 and meter to camera is f8, correct exposure is achieved at f8. Metering to lights would have over-exposed.

event-lighting.png


In fact you get a nice wall of f8

Mike
 
... Ahem, thanks for all the input. I have just bought an L-358 and can confirm the use manual backs up the lovely diagrams above, point it at the camera. The length of the meter and the small blockage of light from the back of the meter will give a "wrong" reading, but these effects are negligable and a check of the histogram will sort it (not a dorect quote obviously, they were a bit more elegant than that). I wanted it to evenly set multiple lights in the studio then get a ballpark setting for the camera and 2) get a ballpark setting for some of the more difficult bride shots. Job done and again thanks for the advice. As it is nearly xmas, to try and create TP peace and goodwill to all, can we just agree it is a handy tool, whatever way you use it, if it works for you thats the main thing, does not matter of you or others think it is the right or wrong way to use it ... agree ?
 
mike weeks said:
So here is the typical event lighting setup, meter to each light is approx f5.6 decimal 5 and meter to camera is f8, correct exposure is achieved at f8. Metering to lights would have over-exposed.

In fact you get a nice wall of f8

Mike
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Why anyone would want to use a lighting setup like that is beyond me! The problem you have here is 2 keys lights. Naturally 2 lights of equal power will give you an extra stop of power!
 
Bryan,

that clearly demonstrates your knowledge of event photography (not that I would expect you to know) and its requirements so here is an explanation to help you understand. Imagine having to photograph anything from 1 to 20 people, maybe 500 - 1000 shots in an evening, so no time to reset or change lights, just pose people.

Can you have 2 key lights? We need to be able to pose people left and right due to hair and dresses for example.

Due to their respective angles have you got a full stop extra of light? As I said much more like half a stop.

Would I light a single portrait like this by choice? No, but then I am not shooting a single portrait.

Mike
 
Mike, I do several events every year, and no I'd never light them like that, in my opinion it's appalling!
 
Bryan,

how do you then suggest coping with 500-100 images in one night then, with having to shoot the varying numbers? I know a lot of event photographers i.e. people that do a lot more than several events in a year. The diagram was to prove a point about metering and meter direction. Perhaps you would like to share your knowledge.

Mike
 
Mike,

That diagram doesn't prove anything. By all means have 2 lights set up either side, but I'd only use 1 at a time. If I were to do that, yes I only do a few each year and folks that do more, I'd expect to have there work flow more polished, my biggest event is 90 children with 3 costume changes each and I don't give flat crappy lighting!
 
And are they in groups from 1 to 20 in size?
Sorry I dont know how you light, so I am not able to make disrespectful comments about what you do!
The lighting like all photographic lighting setups done properly, is done for a purpose and to aid workflow. I know how to, and I use many different light setups depending upon what is required and what is available, this was just one of them to demonstrate meter use.

Mike
 
Mike,

That lighting diagram you posted up is perfect for photographing artwork or documents! In my opinion that's all it's good for and I wouldn't choose to use that
setup for portraiture, it's also a bad example for the point you tried make.

That particular event I cover, people tend to come out in there age groups so sizes can vary, some folks even have glasses on and I need to watch and sometimes adjust for that, as glare affects sales!

My set up is a simple 1 , I feather the key light across my subject acting as key and fill and use a separation/fx light behind and on opposite side to key light. Very simple :)
 
Bryan, you'll find most event photographers will go for a very even lighting setup (ask Jeremy on SWPP)

Might not be photographically the best but it's quick, simple and allows a quick turaround for onsite printing without any need to edit the images. Most people would be happy with that.

Whether you have singles or groups of two, three, five, ten etc, the light is even and easy and quick meaning you don't need to change your light.

Event photography is not portraiture.
 
Jim event photography is portraiture, ol maybe it's me, but I aim to give everyone my best possible service. And I ant going to give them flat pictures, ever!
 
I wouldn't class it as portraiture in the true sense but yes I see your point. When someone turns up at an event and wants a picture you have two minutes to get the shot sell it and print it. When you have a queue of people at an event and the setup for each one is different you need to be shooting quick with as even a light as you can get.

I suppose it may depend on the event too....
 
Maybe I'm missing something blindingly obvious but if I was shooting a head shot and I had two lights as in the event photography example, but one set on full power and the other on half which light would I aim the light meter at?

Surely they would give two different readings - which would be the correct one?

That's the bit I can't get my head around for advocates of that method.

I can however see the logic for example of putting the light meter on the subjects nose and pointing that back to the camera as that would give me a reading of the combine effect of the two different lights from the cameras perspective.

In fact this is from Sekonic's website

http://www.sekonic.com/Whatisyourspecialty/Photographer/Articles/How-to-Use-a-Handheld-Meter.aspx

This extract is how I would naturally understand the function - it makes sense in my head anyway :)

When you are taking an incident reading from the subject’s position, the meter should be held so that the white dome faces the camera lens, not the light source. This ensures that the light strikes the dome exactly as it is falling upon the subject. For example, if you are photographing a face that is side lit, as with the young Indian girl in the photo below, the light must hit the meter from the side. Hence, the dome must face the lens just like the subject’s face does. By positioning the meter correctly, you will allow it to calculate the exposure correctly, regardless of the colors or the reflectivity of the subject.
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I agree 100% with you Jim, but to get an even and consistent exposure over a 3m space, doesn't require flat lighting, the way I do it, I can and do singles, couples and groups if required, all without changing or fafing with lights. 2 lights , equal power is good for flat subjects and that's it, ( bearing in mind this is all my opinion), if I get someone with glasses, some times I nail it ok, sometimes I need to adjust that's it.
 
bryan elliott said:
I agree 100% with you Jim, but to get an even and consistent exposure over a 3m space, doesn't require flat lighting, the way I do it, I can and do singles, couples and groups if required, all without changing or fafing with lights. 2 lights , equal power is good for flat subjects and that's it, ( bearing in mind this is all my opinion), if I get someone with glasses, some times I nail it ok, sometimes I need to adjust that's it.
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Most event togs are just looking to provide a basic pleasant image that looks better than anything the majority will have had. No matter the lighting pattern most people wouldn't be able to see much of a difference :)
 
What part (or both)? If I showed a group an image I doubt any (non photographers) would notice the differences

Speak to Jeremy Nako (on thew SWPP site) - one of the UK's most successful event togs and very willing to give info out. He shoots with 2 softboxes almost straight onto the subject very even light just for speed.

If you're on Pt4U he has a cracking video there.
 
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As Jeremy and I have given a number of seminars together I can confirm that this is the standard setup for many event photographers, and I am sure he would happily confirm it as well.

Bryan, even and consistent lighting must be flat lighting by definition, so which of your arguments is wrong?

The subject however is not flat, so by turning the subject the light reflected back to the camera by different planes of the subject will appear lighter and darker. Shadowing will also occur when you have more than one person so the lighting does not appear flat to the camera. Flat lighting will only appear flat on a flat subject.

Mike
 
A consistent exposure doesnt need to be flat, just because lots of people do something doesn't make it right! Again my opinion , your 2 light sources will fill your shadow areas, and give no modeling to your subject, I'm not a big fan of photographing 4u but watch kenny Martin he knows his lighting :)
 
But he's not so much an event tog.
Like his videos - but Jeremy is the event pro.
 
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Your missing my whole point, just because it's an event people should get and expect a lesser quality picture?
 
I would disagree there Bryan. A photographer shooting a aportrait session will deal with a client and the lighting at an event in a totally different way.
 
Agh just watched a photographing for u video , Mark used his light meter and guess what he exposed to the light source ( a window) shock horror!
 
Perhaps thenit's the studio clients who are suffering Bryan as my clients get totally different lighting. (I say that flippantly Brian as I cannot see how you would shoot a portrait session the same way as an event) Look at Kenny's portrait day.

Light on the portrait subject was very different from that of the group - and the gropu was not setup as you would shoot an event or a portrait.

They all have their own lighting basics.
 
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My "standard portrait customers" who come on for White background stuff get 45 degree lighting feathered across so it gives me a consistent exposure across my backdrop, which means customers can get shot in a group or single and all will have a good standard of lighting and they can go anywhere on the backdrop eithout worrying about exposures all with modeling and shadow on there face regardless. obviously if I was shooting for modeling or comercial where I was using different lighting patterns etc depending on client brief then that's all out the window.

I apply the same technique at any events a have the pleasure of shooting

Simples :)
 
The issue here is that Mike generally shoots big events, and his lighting has to fit in with both the pace, and the PP / Printing work-flow. If he changes stuff shot to shot, he just adds time to each shot, and then time to the PP etc.. In other-words the process falls over, and little business will be done

He will light like this, because there is no real alternative, that can equally deal with both a single person and a medium sized group. This is about business, throughput and having a homogeneous look and system. You also need to consider safety and layout at events too, and this layout allows a in and out zone for punters without any trip hazards

Event photography is not about extracting the very best portrait out of an individual sitter. Its the MacDonalds principle - produce lots of simple but palatable goods quickly for a low price. If someone wants a hour or two of Mikes time, I am sure he can give the Michelin Star chef service too, and produce something exquisite
 
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bryan elliott said:
I disagree jim, I give my event customers the same quality of lighting, as my studio customers
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You have a BUSINESS choice. Produce lots of reasonable and good work, and sell lots of £10 or £15 prints. Or work slower and produce a few excellent portraits, and sell a few £10 or £15 prints
 
bryan elliott said:
My "standard portrait customers" who come on for White background stuff get 45 degree lighting feathered across so it gives me a consistent exposure across my backdrop, which means customers can get shot in a group or single and all will have a good standard of lighting and they can go anywhere on the backdrop eithout worrying about exposures all with modeling and shadow on there face regardless. obviously if I was shooting for modeling or comercial where I was using different lighting patterns etc depending on client brief then that's all out the window.

I apply the same technique at any events a have the pleasure of shooting

Simples :)
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Diagram ? We currently shoot two softboxes at front (like the event diagram) and two softboxes to light the white background, would like to try different setups, can be a single baby on the floor or a group of six. Approx 6 light heads available including a nice hairlight on a boom.
 
Your missing my whole point, just because it's an event people should get and expect a lesser quality picture?
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You have a BUSINESS choice. Produce lots of reasonable and good work, and sell lots of £10 or £15 prints. Or work slower and produce a few excellent portraits, and sell a few £10 or £15 prints
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Richard has hit the nail on the head. It's horses for courses.

If I'm shooting a studio portrait session where I have more time then I'll light it in the most appropriate way. I dont apply a formula.. I will assess the clients, their requirements, the look/finished product that is required and create my lighting accordingly.

However, when I have 600 guests to shoot per evening (and print their photos) on 13 consecutive nights then, through necessity, I'll set the lights to give me the best possible - and most efficient - lighting for the given situation.

Where art overides business then you'll find a very fullfilled but almost always poor artist.

Getting the right balance requires an open mind.
 
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