Linux why?

daugirdas said:
Oh, and one more thing for XP lovers. Did anyone notice a lot of recent software is incompatible with XP? Perhaps it's time to move to linux or upgrade. Either, or - I really don't care.
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Recently?? End of support of XP. People should of upgraded to 7 years ago.

Who said we loved XP?
 
daugirdas said:
She had windows AND linux to begin with, so she moved on... I wasn't even there to tell her. She didn't ask me or a bloke with long hair to fix windows
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Yup - dual boot WIn/Linux is standard in most homes these days ;) It sounds like her husband was using anyway.... and always use what is supported the most - and I've said a number of times any OS will do 95% of the tasks that users want to use a computer for. It's the other 5% where you see the issues.

daugirdas said:
Oh, and one more thing for XP lovers. Did anyone notice a lot of recent software is incompatible with XP? Perhaps it's time to move to linux or upgrade. Either, or - I really don't care.
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When did state-of-the-art Windows in 2014 mean XP?
 
ianp5a said:
It's not in any way clever to use the command line. The clever user is learning using tools appropriate to the area he is expert in. Like photo PP. It is cleverer to spend time learning stuff useful for the user than a UI designed for someone doing a different task. If you are going to be maintaining PCs all day, you might need different tools from a photographer. Where one click can carry out many commands and being highly productive.
Most Linux distros are putting a lot of effort into making good GUIs. These people know about usability. It's the well meaning, but ill informed nerds in the help forums who are not interested in usability or looking into UIs appropriate to the users that come there for help. They are just suggesting tools they prefer. Even though an easy way is available that they may not know about.
And it's not just one hour you need. You can lose many, many hours following suggestions from people that don't work. And you are not even getting near to the principles behind it.
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Imagine your PC doesn't boot or GUI doesn't start. What GUI tools could you use then (on any OS)? CL at least gives you a very good shot at quickly fixing the problem.
If a user can't read and interpret a single text line or doesn't know to press Enter we have a really big problem.

Now I just tell people to get an iPad if I want it easy for myself in one of the above cases. I hate iPads for over-simplicity by the way.

arad85 said:
When did state-of-the-art Windows in 2014 mean XP?
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Isn't this thread primarily of about replacing old XPs with linux and why? For example, all the banks stuck in the old days, NHS, ATMs, call centres. There is nothing linux cannot do for them apart from recompiling / porting some specific apps (Win8 may also require that). They shouldn't be on IE6 Active-X web apps or other nonsense to start with. This is where poor design and planning of software becomes very expensive for all of us as their clients.

I could obviously argue that linux may be better for some users over any windows, but that is a different discussion. It wouldn't really apply to this forum users for a simple reason called Adobe.

The state-of-the-art-windows (v8) is getting a fair share of bad publicity from it's die hard users. They prefer much older v7 for some reason. I have no opinion here. Again that's off topic.
 
daugirdas said:
There is nothing linux cannot do for them apart from recompiling / porting some specific apps (Win8 may also require that).
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That view is incredibly naive....
 
Hi,
I first heard of Linux about 12 years ago when I was working alongside some heavy techies and became curious about what it was and whether I could use it in place of Windows. I have always been seriously against Microsoft for selling products that have so many faults, never live up to the hype and need me to replace half my software and occasionally hardware when a new OS release is done, so the thought of a more future-proofed operating system was attractive.

It wasn't until about 5 years ago that I got round to trying it. I was looking for a system that appears as close to Windows as possible to minimise the learning curve, but the first problem I found was discovering that Linux is not a product that has a single UI like Windows but a load of different flavours each with it's own features. I eventually decided that Mint would be a good choice and found that it wouldn't load. No explanantion why, it just stopped loading.

Next to be tried was Fedora which did load and could be modified to make it look sufficiently like Windows for SWMBO to be able to use it. I then hit a problem, went to the web and found that I had to use a command line to solve it. This was quite nostalgic as I was using command lines before Windows was invented. What did cause problems was that I couldn't find anything about command line syntax and how to do things such as locating the software I was meant to run and changing the directory to point to the right place. I also found Fedora very unstable and eventually gave up on it.

A couple of years later I was faced with an ailing 10yo laptop that was about ready for scrapping so thought I had nothing to lose by trying a different Linux flavour on it. This time I chose Zorin and found that except for having to use an old version to match old hardware it made a very acceptable second machine for internet browsing and editing basic office documents when our main maching is in use. Interface is close enough to Windows to need little learning, it's pretty stable, rarely have to use a command line, and it runs far quicker than XP that the machine was designed to run.

I've since loaded the latest version of Zorin onto a 6yo laptop and again found it stable and much faster than Vista that the machine was running. It is also used as a secondary machine when required. Browsing is done with Firefox and office documents with Libre Office. I haven't found any incompatibility with Word. Basic Excel workbooks are handled correctly but macros are not processed and IIRC graphs are converted to static pictures. I use Gimp for photo editing which works exactly the same as on Windows. I've found some jobs such as converting file formats are definitely easier on Linux and I've also found that some old hardware for which there is no driver for Windows 8 simply works as soon as plugged in on Linux.

Sorry for rambling on. Conclusion is that for me, after several false starts, I've finally found a version of Linux that is usable and has revived two old machines that would otherwise be scrapped. The range of software I can use on Linux isn't as great as Windows so I can't switch over entirely. I do use Linux for some tasks that are easier than on Windows, and when it is difficult to find safe Windows software which is cheap enough to be bought for a one-off task.

onomatopoeia said:
Heaven forbid anyone actually pay for software that they use.
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I don't mind paying for software. What I do object to is have to pay again to replace it when Microsoft release a new operting system.

ianp5a said:
Does windows repair a messed up boot sector by itself?
Precisely that is going to scare most people away. In many cases, the user has already gone through a trauma searching online to find the information with unfamiliar terminology, not in the user realm. He then pastes in some gobbledegook he was given in a forum. A whole load of text scrolls up his screen. He doesn't know if the command worked or not. You see this a lot in the forums. If he hasn't already given up, he pastes all the text back into the forum. and the guy will say, Oh, did you do a so and so first? Whats a so and so?. And so he gets the next command to paste in. Working blindly this way is not learning. And in most cases not necessary. If only the geek knew the easy way. The command line is a terrible UI for non-techies, with no learnability or discover-ability, no obvious undo. No clear or consistent feedback. Hidden commands. Hidden and inconsistent command options. No familiar terms and places to go. It's just too far removed from what normal users have ever seen. Sadly it's advice like that that scares the bajingos out of people and keeps Linux out of the mainstream. Take a look at what Android has achieved in comparison.
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All very true.
 
arad85 said:
and I've said a number of times any OS will do 95% of the tasks that users want to use a computer for. It's the other 5% where you see the issues.?
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95% sounds pretty good to me, especially right out of the box :) In other words, only minority of users will really need something special. Like us for Photoshop. Most office work is typing up reports and making presentations or filling spreadsheets. There is nothing special LibreOffice couldn't do before you even consider web based tools like Google Docs, Apple iWork or MS own One Drive with paid subscription.

You may not love APT, but it is nice and easy way to manage and roll out system updates with ease. App store was clearly inspired by Ubuntu software centre. It is that obvious. The DLL mess on windows is where you often feel the pain.

I fear this is more about "convention" and old ways of doing things. Try to explain to the Americans that diesel cars are way more advanced than petrol; or that nuclear is better than burning coal. No chance.
 
arad85 said:
That view is incredibly naive....
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It may be a big simplification (it will vary from company to company) but at the end of the day code is portable. The sooner the software is made sustainable, the cheaper it will be in the future. And screw all proprietary contracts that make it so difficult to change simple things
 
daugirdas said:
95% sounds pretty good to me, especially right out of the box :) In other words, only minority of users will really need something special. Like us for Photoshop. Most office work is typing up reports and making presentations or filling spreadsheets. There is nothing special LibreOffice couldn't do before you even consider web based tools like Google Docs, Apple iWork or MS own One Drive with paid subscription.
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The remaining 5% of tasks affects more than 5% of users.... I'd say Windows would cover more bases than either Linux or OSX - so it probably makes it the most general purpose OS out there. It supports more hardware than the others and there are more apps available for it than the others (yes, I can state that with certainty). Ergo you are more likely to find a solution for whatever todays esoteric problem is.

daugirdas said:
You may not love APT, but it is nice and easy way to manage and roll out system updates with ease. App store was clearly inspired by Ubuntu software centre. It is that obvious. The DLL mess on windows is where you often feel the pain.
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Me? I use the command line everywhere. apt-get is a staple for me on Debian, as is occasional use of dpkg.... I actually prefer FreeBSDs ports - where the item you are after is downloaded and compiled in front of your eyes. That way, you know the packages it compiles and links against are the ones on your system. BTW: dll hell hasn't been seen for years.

daugirdas said:
I fear this is more about "convention" and old ways of doing things. Try to explain to the Americans that diesel cars are way more advanced than petrol; or that nuclear is better than burning coal. No chance.
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Yes, and that's the point. Convention gives you more support for novices on Windows (evening classes, dummys guide to etc...), more support for esoteric hardware and software, more impetus to keep it as it is. It's why Win 8 isn't liked...
 
daugirdas said:
It may be a big simplification (it will vary from company to company)
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It is a huge, HUGE oversimplification. And that is the problem - it cannot be oversimplified.

daugirdas said:
but at the end of the day code is portable.
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GOOD code is portable. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who can't write good code, either due to inability or time pressure (oh yeah... we'll add the portability layer next week...). Trust me, I'm in the middle of reworking something business critical at work. If it had been written correctly in the first place.........

daugirdas said:
The sooner the software is made sustainable, the cheaper it will be in the future.
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Yup... I'll sign up to something that will mean my skills are worthless. Software is NOT free. And just because the licensing costs are very low has no bearing on ongoing support costs.
 
CanonGard said:
Conclusion is that for me, after several false starts, I've finally found a version of Linux that is usable and has revived two old machines that would otherwise be scrapped. The range of software I can use on Linux isn't as great as Windows so I can't switch over entirely. I do use Linux for some tasks that are easier than on Windows, and when it is difficult to find safe Windows software which is cheap enough to be bought for a one-off task.
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Yup... I'd agree with that (for desktop use).
 
CanonGard said:
Conclusion is that for me, after several false starts, I've finally found a version of Linux that is usable and has revived two old machines that would otherwise be scrapped.
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Yes, up to about 6 years ago even the cosiest of the distros was still having problems detecting all the hardware. Since then they have come a long way. There is still a few things to do. But most people manage to get up and running out of the box.
daugirdas said:
Imagine your PC doesn't boot or GUI doesn't start. What GUI tools could you use then (on any OS)?
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I would stick in the boot USB and have the full desktop ready right away.

Anyway the command line UI versus GUI is an old debate. It is clear what is most successful. And it seems usability and learn-ability and the various different user types, are not in your field of interest.
 
daugirdas said:
You may not love APT, but it is nice and easy way to manage and roll out system updates with ease. App store was clearly inspired by Ubuntu software centre. It is that obvious. The DLL mess on windows is where you often feel the pain.
Click to expand...

apt is excellent and a big reason why I like debian so much (I've been using debian for longer than ubuntu has existed). However you seem to be living in 15 years ago with your reference to DLL problems on Windows.
 
ianp5a said:
I would stick in the boot USB and have the full desktop ready right away.
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Just to be clear what would you do if problem is deeper than a single messed up configuration file? Use terminal and chroot into the system? Fair enough, but it is probably not the fastest way presuming the system could still boot. I hope you are not reinstalling without any need.

onomatopoeia said:
apt is excellent and a big reason why I like debian so much (I've been using debian for longer than ubuntu has existed). However you seem to be living in 15 years ago with your reference to DLL problems on Windows.
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It is a fair bit more recent problem than that. However if it makes you feel better I rather happily live with a mac for the last few years.
 
Why Linux? For me it's because I use it at work - it's far better for what I do. I keep my home machine pretty similar to work for ease.

Can do all that I want - home machine runs Darktable, Gimp, Lightworks, DaVinci Resolve, Libre Office, Chrome, VLC, NetBeans, GCC, etc.

At work I do a lot of tweaking and compiling of software - windows doesn't play nice when I type ./configure && make && sudo make install
 
neil_g said:
its funny how the same old anti-MS drum banging users start spouting twaddle and the thread spirals into chaos.
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Was definitely funny reading some people's view....
 
neil_g said:
wow, i wondered why i was avoiding this thread.

its funny how the same old anti-MS drum banging users start spouting twaddle and the thread spirals into chaos.
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Yes I know what you mean :)
Didn't mean to start chaos but it's certainly gone a bit that way
Most of its over my head but still interesting
 
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LCPete said:
Agree with you but I just wondered what it was all about :)
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OK so Linux on the desktop is for people who like to do things the hard way and prove their technical prowess to others. So say for example you want to delete a folder, most people will grab it and drag it to the recycle bin. Propeller-heads will drop to the command line and type in "rm -rf /usr/Pete/Documents/Why/am/i/bothering"

Linux on the server end is another kettle of fish. For years now Linux fan boys have been proclaiming that this version/distro of Linux is now ready for the desktop. Neatly forgetting that most users are Joe average who really don't care and have used Windows since they were knee high to a grasshopper. Of course a lot of people now use Apple because it's cool.

And I guess that's why some use Linux. Because there's a geeky chicness to it. (Or so they think).
 
gadgeteer said:
OK so Linux on the desktop is for people who like to do things the hard way and prove their technical prowess to others. So say for example you want to delete a folder, most people will grab it and drag it to the recycle bin. Propeller-heads will drop to the command line and type in "rm -rf /usr/Pete/Documents/Why/am/i/bothering"

Linux on the server end is another kettle of fish. For years now Linux fan boys have been proclaiming that this version/distro of Linux is now ready for the desktop. Neatly forgetting that most users are Joe average who really don't care and have used Windows since they were knee high to a grasshopper. Of course a lot of people now use Apple because it's cool.

And I guess that's why some use Linux. Because there's a geeky chicness to it. (Or so they think).
Click to expand...

Yes see what you mean I couldn't be bothered with all that:)
For me anyway I dont mind whatever the operating system is as long as I can use lightroom and photoshop
I have a windows desktop and mac laptop I love the screen on the mac and the 10 hour battery life is very important
 
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gadgeteer said:
Propeller-heads will drop to the command line and type in "rm -rf /usr/Pete/Documents/Why/am/i/bothering"
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Propeller heads will be at the terminal anyway since then you don't have to waste time taking your hands off the keyboard to move the mouse in the first place.... And what's this Recycle Bin you talk of? If I delete something, I want it gone!

TBH, most complex things are actually easier to do at the command prompt - as long as you know how ;)
 
mid_gen said:
That is the oft trotted out fallacy. I have never installed a Linux distro and not had to google some command line tasks in order to get it working correctly. There's always some drivers, graphics, scanner, printer or whatever that doesn't work and ends up consuming far more time than is necessary.,
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I installed a copy of mint off a cover disc that came with Linux user - worked straight out of the disc , no command line tasks necessary

as to why - principally because I don't want to pay through the nose for a copy of W7 , and also it is considerably faster on an old desk top system , and does everything I need for casual or work use. - Scribus is massively better than publisher for DTP (and yes I know you can get indesign for windows but seriously see the price tag),

The only reason I keep a windows box at all is that so far GIMP doesn't handle raw conversion and the work arrounds don't work anywhere near as well as lightroom - so I still do my photo processing on a W7 system - though I am quite tempted to go to mac
 
big soft moose said:
I installed a copy of mint off a cover disc that came with Linux user - worked straight out of the disc , no command line tasks necessary
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I've certainly installed a system without needing the command line too....

big soft moose said:
Scribus is massively better than publisher for DTP (and yes I know you can get indesign for windows but seriously see the price tag),
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This is the bit I don't get. You want to use Scribus - OK - I've never used that or Indesign so wouldn't know one end of either from the other - but you imply the Windows alternative is expensive. OK AN alternative is expensive, but Scribus - like MANY other open apps - is available on Windows. There does appear to be a complete blinkering of the Linux is the Only Way brigade that forgets that most of the free apps (Libre Office etc...) are also available on Windows, so the only extra initial cost is that of the OS - which comes bundled with most PCs. And, as has been said by most on here advocating Linux, other than for reviving old hardware (which Linux does well) most people also can't let go of Windows for one reason or another - normally due to needing certain Windows only apps. Why go to all that effort...?
 
first you've got to have a system capable of running the windows alternative - which costs more than the hardware capable of running Linux
then you've got to buy the windows operating system which costs a lot more than Linux which is free.

so yeah I could put scribus on a windows pc - but only at the cost of first going out and buying said windows pc instead of reviving an older pc with a Linux distro.

the other thing that puts Linux ahead for me is start up - my I5 chip W7 laptop starts so slowly you can literally make a cup of tea between boot and ready , principally due to windows updates. the dual core Pentium Linux system is ready in about 10 seconds.

Anyway you've missed my point - I didn't go to Linux so I could run scribus - I went to Linux because I didn't want to pay over 100 quid for a W7 operating system. my point about scribus was having gone to Linux nearly all the software I need is either the same as or better than the Windows versions

scrivener - paid software on windows , free on Linux
Open office does everything I need at least as well as Office
Scribus - pees all over publisher (which is what the windows pc came bundled with before the hard drive borked)
Gimp -not quite as good as photoshop but the equal of elements

and so forth
 
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big soft moose said:
first you've got to have a system capable of running the windows alternative - which costs more than the hardware capable of running Linux
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I'm willing to bet my Win8.1 laptop is less powerful yet it runs Windows fine (in fact, far better than I thought it would).
big soft moose said:
then you've got to buy the windows operating system which costs a lot more than Linux which is free.
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Which, unless you're talking about a machine 5+ years old (Win 7 RTM was mid 2009, so anything bought in 2009 would have likely qualified for a free upgrade), would have come with Win 7 anyway.... Even if it hadn't, buying an upgrade when Win 7 came out would have been very cheap (£25 IIRC).

big soft moose said:
the other thing that puts Linux ahead for me is start up - my I5 chip W7 laptop starts so slowly you can literally make a cup of tea between boot and ready , principally due to windows updates. the dual core Pentium Linux system is ready in about 10 seconds.
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In which case, something is wrong. All my i5/i7 machines take longer to come out of POST than boot Windows - in fact the laptop takes longer to come out of hibernate than boot. But yes, Linux does boot quicker, but not by much IME and how often do you boot (most of the time it's a resume from sleep/hibernate anyway)?

Windows updates come out once a month - if the machine isn't on very often and you have auto updates on, it's going to take a while to boot - just like it takes me an age to login first time whilst Ubuntu goes off and searches for how many updates are available . But you can switch Windows updates off and install them like Linux updates - when you want to - simply by running the update program!

big soft moose said:
Anyway you've missed my point - I didn't go to Linux so I could run scribus - I went to Linux because I didn't want to pay over 100 quid for a W7 operating system.
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But you already have a Win 7 O/S....
big soft moose said:
scrivener - paid software on windows , free on Linux
Open office does everything I need at least as well as Office
Scribus - pees all over publisher (which is what the windows pc came bundled with before the hard drive borked)
Gimp -not quite as good as photoshop but the equal of elements

and so forth
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So, scrivener is paid, all others are available on Windows free.... Running Linux doesn't enable these free apps at all as they are free on Windows too...
 
Dale_tem said:
Recently?? End of support of XP. People should of upgraded to 7 years ago.

Who said we loved XP?
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Well I love it and still use it, albeit a cut down version with all the crap I personally don't want taken out by NLite.

I also use Win7 32 bit and Win7 64 bit in an i7 machine to use all the available RAM.

I still use XP simply because it can still do about 90% of the tasks I do, but most of all because I'm used to it.

It very seldom crashes, is easier to use (IMO) than the other Wins, and allows me to run programs that I have been using for many years, which I am also used to.

I have recently tried Zorin in a VM but apart from being able to surf the net with no problems found it incredibly confusing - I couldn't even install Firefox for Linux on it!

By that I mean Firefox would run on it but when I closed down the program the next time I opened it Firefox wasn't there even though Chrome was (installed as part of the original install).

I then had to find the Firefox download folder and click on it to install it but it never did install and stay there!

I have no doubt I could learn the special esoteric commands that other Linux Gurus do but why should I?

In Windows to install something I just click on the Application and, HEY, it installs and stays there! - so easy!

And it also installs the same way on all the other versions of Windows which I have.

Users want EASE OF USE which Windows gives them and Linux doesn't - which means that unless and until Linux follows Windows example and makes it much easier to install apps without recourse to a command line and all the other complications that go with it, all it will ever be for 99% of users is a very odd and totally useless program which they simply can't be bothered with!
.
 
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What must have been a quick go on a Linux install is not really enough experience to make a judgement call on Linux as a whole Peter... And you most definitely do not need the command line to install stuff - Ubuntu distributions come with Synaptic Package Manager and Zorin comes with a Software Manager (Start -> Software Manager) which allows you to install from packages.
 
Well I seem to have the Synaptic Software Manager, but still haven't a clue how to work it.

Searched for Firefox and it gave me loads of packages.

No sign how to do anything at all to actually just install Firefox.

WINDOWS > Download Firefox - click the application - it installs - SIMPLES!
.
 
Installing on Linux is just as simple as on windows, but different. When you download a windows application it will normally come as a package, and as it installs it creates a bunch of different files in various parts of the OS. With linux the individual parts of the application are downloaded separately from a repository on a remote server, and the installation of those files managed by your software manager.

I would guess your failed firefox install is due to running the virtual machine, and each time you re-start it you are re-starting the original virtual machine instead of it working like an installed OS. However if you want to try again, open your package manager and search for firefox. Select one of the files called firefox (not anything with development or similar in the title) and ask for it to be installed - the package manager should recognise that this is part of the application firefox and then select all the other files and dependencies required to install the program.
FWIW I tried Zorin a year or so back, but it just never ran well for me - might be worth looking at something else like Mageia, Mint or Fedora. I really like Sabayon, but they're a little too bleeding-edge.

Regarding speed and older systems, there are some Linux distros that have very low system overheads and run really quickly - LinuxLiteOS is one such - while others like openSUSE/KDE are as slow/slower than windows 8.1. All OSs seem to slow down after a while too, whether Windows, Linux or OSX, and benefit from reinstallation from scratch about every 12-24 months. There's every chance that wiping that i5 laptop & starting again would restore performance back to where it was when the machine was new.
 
We've had this convo before. Your experience and understand suggest otherwise, and blames the user for installing more and more junk. Someone has already commented about going off and making a cupper while W7 starts up, but I doubt it was like that from new.
 
heres my tips about ubuntu or other distros
ive tried most of them and i think the best versions to use are mint, ubuntu 12.04, elementary luna OS and xubuntu all have very good software easy to use and lots of good editing software etc photo and video all free there are always supported updates it runs alot better and faster than windows and no wasting money on a anti virus
 
ancient_mariner said:
We've had this convo before. Your experience and understand suggest otherwise, and blames the user for installing more and more junk. Someone has already commented about going off and making a cupper while W7 starts up, but I doubt it was like that from new.
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yup. and as i said the user has a LOT to do with that.

slowdown incidents have dramatically decreased since removing (local) admin rights and/or the ability to install programs for end users.

doesnt generally go down well though, especially with the mac users. that lot are a law unto themselves.
 
petersmart said:
Well I seem to have the Synaptic Software Manager, but still haven't a clue how to work it.

Searched for Firefox and it gave me loads of packages.

No sign how to do anything at all to actually just install Firefox.
.
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Click on the checkbox to the left of firefox (actually, the disto I am using calls it iceweasel, but that's a different matter) and once marked, click apply. Not only can you install multiple things in one go (you can search/select multiple packages) you only ever need to go to one place - the package manager. No more google download location, download software then install... SIMPLES ;)
 
ancient_mariner said:
We've had this convo before. Your experience and understand suggest otherwise, and blames the user for installing more and more junk. Someone has already commented about going off and making a cupper while W7 starts up, but I doubt it was like that from new.
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Computers only do what they are told to do. Someone has told it to download more crud and install it.....
 
Well I've had a think and am going to give Linux mint a go on my old dell laptop:)
I just had a look at it and it's windows xp so either I've got to buy another version of windows or try Linux
It's not worth spending any money on it and I've already got another laptop so nothing to lose
It needed windows reinstalling anyway as it became very slow to boot and the USB ports don't work
I will try installing mint from a DVD next week and no doubt will be posting some questions!
Will probably use the laptop for internet and photo viewing probably won't try any photo editing program's
Thanks everyone for their input it's been a really interesting thread
 
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