M43, and why people are wrong about it

[Cagey75]

So are you saying you and the video guy have not committed a logical fallacy?

Me and the video guy? Just spit it out ffs, whatever you are on about, what 'fallacy'? Could you not just expand on what you're picking at from the off? There's no fallacy here, it's about people's view toward a system, and I've seen it for myself

 

[Baloo]

Me and the video guy? Just spit it out ffs, whatever you are on about, what 'fallacy'?

Oh so you make comments on things you do not understand as well, you figure it out I am not here to educate you.

 

[Cagey75]

Oh so you make comments on things you do not understand as well, you figure it out I am not here to educate you.

Your 3 comments have told me absoloutely nothing, so you're talking nonsense or trolling, one or the other. I've just reminded you what the thread is about and you have nothing still. You have contributed zilch, nada ... just a random snide comment without back up. I doubt there's much you could 'educate' anyone on.

 

[Cagey75]

Because when someone has spent £2,000+ on a camera body and £10,000+ on a selection of lenses, they really do not want to face the idea that £500 on M43 kit would have produced the same images with a lot less inconvenience.

A lot of this, yes.

I just happen to agree with the guy in the video, I don't know him, never heard of him until very recently and though he is talking more about video, the point remains the same. He finds people look down a little on the gear for pro work in particular. I'm sure M43 wedding shooters [and they do exist] get this a lot too. That small, cheaper gear can indeed produce great results, and I do believe those with tonnes of 'higher end' gear get their noses put out of joint at times because they're lugging about massive bricks and without them telling you all about their gear at every opportunity, you wouldn't really guess. People jumping on my posts just because I happen to agree with the guy in the video doesn't make me wrong in any way, and nobody has convinced me of anything otherwise.

Thread is done pretty much, and nobody is any the wiser it seems.

 

[Baloo]

Your 3 comments have told me absoloutely nothing, so you're talking nonsense or trolling, one or the other. I've just reminded you what the thread is about and you have nothing still. You have contributed zilch, nada ... just a random snide comment without back up. I doubt there's much you could 'educate' anyone on.

Adhominem how clever of you.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Do you ever read your own posts Keith, and wonder how they come across?

It's his thread, he can say what he likes and doesnt give two hoots what anyone thinks.
And now he'll moan about me only posting about his comments and not contributing to the thread.

 

[JYC]

A lot of this, yes.

I just happen to agree with the guy in the video, I don't know him, never heard of him until very recently and though he is talking more about video, the point remains the same. He finds people look down a little on the gear for pro work in particular. I'm sure M43 wedding shooters [and they do exist] get this a lot too. That small, cheaper gear can indeed produce great results, and I do believe those with tonnes of 'higher end' gear get their noses put out of joint at times because they're lugging about massive bricks and without them telling you all about their gear at every opportunity, you wouldn't really guess. People jumping on my posts just because I happen to agree with the guy in the video doesn't make me wrong in any way, and nobody has convinced me of anything otherwise.

Thread is done pretty much, and nobody is any the wiser it seems.

I don't know why you are being so aggressive really?

People have good reasons why they buy non-m43 gear and you seem to be hell bent on dismissing them

 

[Cagey75]

It's his thread, he can say what he likes and doesnt give two hoots what anyone thinks.
And now he'll moan about me only posting about his comments and not contributing to the thread.

You're right about the first line, I really don't And no Bob, you have contributed with that first line

I don't know why you are being so aggressive really?

People have good reasons why they buy non-m43 gear and you seem to be hell bent on dismissing them

How about highlighting the aggressive parts there and I'll go through them with you? Maybe set them to bold and huge lettering like Ray does

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

You're right about the first line, I really don't And no Bob, you have contributed with that first line



How about highlighting the aggressive parts there and I'll go through them with you? Maybe set them to bold and huge lettering like Ray does

You really don't have any idea how much of a dick you sound.
Or maybe you do, and its you thats the troll.
I'm out, though I was never really in....

 

[Gaz J]

A lot of this, yes.

I just happen to agree with the guy in the video, I don't know him, never heard of him until very recently and though he is talking more about video, the point remains the same. He finds people look down a little on the gear for pro work in particular. I'm sure M43 wedding shooters [and they do exist] get this a lot too. That small, cheaper gear can indeed produce great results, and I do believe those with tonnes of 'higher end' gear get their noses put out of joint at times because they're lugging about massive bricks and without them telling you all about their gear at every opportunity, you wouldn't really guess. People jumping on my posts just because I happen to agree with the guy in the video doesn't make me wrong in any way, and nobody has convinced me of anything otherwise.

Thread is done pretty much, and nobody is any the wiser it seems.

It doesn’t make you right in any way either Keith. It’s just your opinion which, while it may be important to you, doesn’t mean everyone else feels the same way.

Without exception the photographers I know are more interested in good photography and really couldn’t give a toss what it was taken with.

 

[Cagey75]

You really don't have any idea how much of a dick you sound.
Or maybe you do, and its you thats the troll.

Maybe I enjoy being a dick? I think you already know I don't give a rat's about being thought of as such. I could well be a troll, or maybe I have good points people refuse to concur with just because they think I'm a dick? Doesn't bother me either way. You only ever post to have your little pop, and that's fine, haters gonna hate

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Maybe I enjoy being a dick? I think you already know I don't give a rat's about being thought of as such. I could well be a troll, or maybe I have good points people refuse to concur with just because they think I'm a dick? Doesn't bother me either way. You only ever post to have your little pop, and that's fine, haters gonna hate

Whatever....

 

[Cagey75]

It doesn’t make you right in any way either Keith. It’s just your opinion which, while it may be important to you, doesn’t mean everyone else feels the same way.

Without exception the photographers I know are more interested in good photography and really couldn’t give a toss what it was taken with.

This is very true, but I will still call people out when I think it's nonsense. This whole derailing was caused by Ray saying so matter of factly that people only ever praise stuff because they bought it. If you don't think that is nonsense, that's your opinion, I just had to state mine. Maybe some people do this, but certainly not everyone, there are genuine people who tell it like it is, and some just don't like that.

If gear was never talked about on here then I doubt any of us could tell a lot of time what was used to produce any of the images that get shared. But it is the equipment section, gear will be discussed or there would be no point to it.

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

I've not watched either video but here's by twopenneth worth. Snobbishness is there in all walks of life, not just photography. Some of it is ignorance, some of it is insecurity, and some of it is to justify their own purchases and expense. Why 'we' are so negative towards others and other's possessions is beyond me. Not everyone is fortunate enough to buy the latest greatest FF or medium format, or even high end M4/3 and buy the best that they can, to be snobbish about this is just ignorant imo. Some people just choose the smaller format because they prefer it, again to 'laugh' or 'look down' at these folk is just ignorant.

There's no denying that in absolute terms of IQ then the bigger the format the better the outright the IQ is, BUT it's far from the difference that folk try to make it out to be, and this is at the pixel level. Print on 7x5 or 6x4 like most of us did prior to digital format and you're not going to see a difference in IQ (other than the DOF differences). Even printing on A4 you're unlikely to see any difference. In fact in my office I have 3 A3 prints, 2 taken with my old D750 and 1 with my old EM10. For fun I sometimes ask people to see if they can tell which is which and none can.

So this then begs the question why I have FF if I have m4/3 and there's such little difference in IQ? The main reasons are high ISO performance, my love for subject isolation (there is a look about FF that I prefer but this is purely preference), ability to crop (I do take a lot of wildlife) and the AF performance (although this has been negated to a large degree by the EM1-II from what folk say).

Build quality of M4/3 is also top notch, I would trust my EM1 and 12-40mm in far worse weather than I would my Nikon gear. I'm not sure which is actually better tbh, but the Olympus instills more confidence in me.

IMO people should just concentrate on improving their own photography rather than worrying about what other equipment people use and how good it is compared to their own. Sure we all like to have a bit of banter, but this is different to genuine snobbishness.

I would like to here and now apologize for any snobbishness exhibited by me on here just because I have an M100 and kit lens,I know not everyone can afford to be so lavish as myself and no offence was intended in any of my posts when praising it's undoubted quality,hope this clears any offence taken by anyone,

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

This is very true, but I will still call people out when I think it's nonsense. This whole derailing was caused by Ray saying so matter of factly that people only ever praise stuff because they bought it. If you don't think that is nonsense, that's your opinion, I just had to state mine. Maybe some people do this, but certainly not everyone, there are genuine people who tell it like it is, and some just don't like that.

If gear was never talked about on here then I doubt any of us could tell a lot of time what was used to produce any of the images that get shared. But it is the equipment section, gear will be discussed or there would be no point to it.

Just because Ray stated his opinion doesn't mean he derailed the thread though.

 

[Baloo]

Maybe I enjoy being a dick? I think you already know I don't give a rat's about being thought of as such. I could well be a troll, or maybe I have good points people refuse to concur with just because they think I'm a dick? Doesn't bother me either way. You only ever post to have your little pop, and that's fine, haters gonna hate

More ad hominem!
How about you show us some evidence of this "snobishness" towards M4/3rds that has actually occured on this forum?

 

[JYC]

How about you show us some evidence of this "snobishness" towards M4/3rds that has actually occured on this forum?

Exactly, nobody has had a pop at m43 on this topic at all and he's still managed to get massively upset. Think it really says more about the chip on his shoulder rather than any issues, real or perceived, with m43.

 

[Raymond Lin]

This is very true, but I will still call people out when I think it's nonsense. This whole derailing was caused by Ray saying so matter of factly that people only ever praise stuff because they bought it. If you don't think that is nonsense, that's your opinion, I just had to state mine. Maybe some people do this, but certainly not everyone, there are genuine people who tell it like it is, and some just don't like that.

If gear was never talked about on here then I doubt any of us could tell a lot of time what was used to produce any of the images that get shared. But it is the equipment section, gear will be discussed or there would be no point to it.

The see you mentioned my name again...sooo

People like to defend their purchase is nonsense, here you are defending YOUR purchase.

Yeah...nonsense.

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

 

[Raymond Lin]

Of all the things in this thread, he keeps mentioning my comment about basic human nature which has nothing to do specifically about cameras! Lol I find that hilarious.

 

[Ed Sutton]

:sleep:

 

[Cagey75]

Of all the things in this thread, he keeps mentioning my comment about basic human nature which has nothing to do specifically about cameras! Lol I find that hilarious.

The irony is that it was I had to tell you to get a room after a 2 page argument with someone else in your own thread. I wasn't surprised to see you troll in here afterward. You have a terrible view of human nature, and I called it nonsense. get over it today some time.

Still makes more sense than a Ray post

 

[Raymond Lin]

The irony that it was I had to tell you to get a room after a 2 page argument with someone else in your own thread. I wasn't surprised to see you troll in here afterward. You have a terrible view of human nature, and I called it nonsense. get over it today some time.



Still makes more sense than a Ray post

Trolling would be you, what I said is true, you are exhibit A.

 

[Cagey75]

Just because Ray stated his opinion doesn't mean he derailed the thread though.

More ad hominem!
How about you show us some evidence of this "snobishness" towards M4/3rds that has actually occured on this forum?

Exactly, nobody has had a pop at m43 on this topic at all and he's still managed to get massively upset. Think it really says more about the chip on his shoulder rather than any issues, real or perceived, with m43.

I could swear this is the same person. You're not looking very hard if you've never come across it, go to any youtube comment section, it's not hard to find. This thread wasn't about this forum, it just happens to be posted here, it's not hard to understand, three of you are agreeing to something that doesn't exist. I am far from upset, I also have not called anyone any names but have been called a dick, aggressive and other things, do I look like it bothers me? I'm not the snowflake here chaps.

 

[Cagey75]

Trolling would be you, what I said is true, you are exhibit A.

Ray it's all you do, every other thread, you're not even making any point now I have no idea what you're back for? I told you straight up your post was nonsense, and we then have 2 pages of you whining over it ... don't you have some lens bigger than your ego to go polish?

 

[Baloo]

I could swear this is the same person. You're not looking very hard if you've never come across it, go to any youtube comment section, it's not hard to find. This thread wasn't about this forum, it just happens to be posted here, it's not hard to understand, three of you are agreeing to something that doesn't exist. I am far from upset, I also have not called anyone any names but have been called a dick, aggressive and other things, do I look like it bothers me? I'm not the snowflake here chaps.

So you have no evidence to produce of this "snobbishness" on this forum. Perhaps you can show some evidence of these "people" then?

 

[Raymond Lin]

Ray it's all you do, every other thread, you're not even making any point now I have no idea what you're back for? I told you straight up your post was nonsense, and we then have 2 pages of you whining over it ... don't you have some lens bigger than your ego to go polish?

Explain how it is nonsense?

You buy something, if other tells you that there is something better, you would start to defend your purchase no?

Or do you agree with others?

Like if someone tell you m4/3 is crap, do you agree with them or get very defensive?

Human nature, everybody does it. How is that a terrible view on people? It’s what people do. You are doing it right now, but you just can’t see it.

 

[Cagey75]

Explain how it is nonsense?

You buy something, if other tells you that there is something better, you would start to defend your purchase no?

Or do you agree with others?

Like if someone tell you m4/3 is crap, do you agree with them or get very defensive?

I said on page one I have bought stuff that I had nothing great to say about. You can say what you like personally about the system, i don't have shares in it! But I think you're very wrong that people only praise things because they bought it. No point continuing going round in circles, you have your opinion and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

So you have no evidence to produce of this "snobbishness" on this forum. Perhaps you can show some evidence of these "people" then?

Nobody said anything about snobbishness on this forum to begin with, it's like you haven't even read through the thread just jumped in to troll, is your google broken? I'm not your maid, go look for yourself

Since you won't bother, as you're not actually interested here's another person that agrees there is hate on M43, there's dozens of similar articles, you only have to google 'M43 hate'

https://www.thephoblographer.com/20...s-and-stopping-the-hate-on-micro-four-thirds/

 

[Raymond Lin]

I said on page one I have bought stuff that I had nothing great to say about. You can say what you like personally about the system, i don't have shares in it! But I think you're very wrong that people only praise things because they bought it. No point continuing going round in circles, you have your opinion and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

It’s NOT about praise, in fact I have not said the word praise until now (go look back if you like), I said DEFEND. There’s a difference, a clear and distinctive difference.

The whole time you got the wrong end of the stick.

 

[Baloo]

I said on page one I have bought stuff that I had nothing great to say about. You can say what you like personally about the system, i don't have shares in it! But I think you're very wrong that people only praise things because they bought it. No point continuing going round in circles, you have your opinion and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.



Nobody said anything about snobbishness on this forum to begin with, it's like you haven't even read through the thread just jumped in to troll, is your google broken? I'm not your maid, go look for yourself

Thank you, I think you very successfully proved my point that this entire thread is based on a logical fallacy.
Personally I find the opinions of people on specialised photography forums much more pertinent to photography than the comments of people on you tube.

 

[Cagey75]

It’s NOT about praise, in fact I have not said the word praise until now (go look back if you like), I said DEFEND. There’s a difference, a clear and distinctive difference.

Fair enough, I picked you up wrong then I guess, came across as you saying people only praise/defend/like/enjoy whatever, because they paid for it. I don't think everyone is so shallow. You have to give people a bit more credit. It's like me saying there are people who hate on something because it's cheap or small or not 'pro' - doesn't mean I think everyone is like this. There are nay sayers for just about everything, we mentioned the silly console wars in another thread, it's not all that different. I've seen people near kill one another over football teams that neither have any connection to just their own made up loyalty. I switch systems every couple years, I have no ties to any make or model, I could swing to Canon or Sony just as easy as go back to Fuji or Nikon. It'll be to suit me, not anyone else. Atm, it's M43 I happen to use, there's things I dislikes about the system, but there's a couple things keeping me hanging on, it has surprised me, I was nervous going in, thought I'd be out just as quick. The guy in the video says "don't knock it till you've tried it" and I think he's dead on with that. If you tried it and hated it, then it's not for you, no problem, but I have seen people disregard the system without ever having tried it - and no trolls, I will not go find these comments for you as it would be on other forums - like dpr or FM forums and I'm not sure it's even allowed link them here.

 

[Cagey75]

Thank you, I think you very successfully proved my point that this entire thread is based on a logical fallacy.
Personally I find the opinions of people on specialised photography forums much more pertinent to photography than the comments of people on you tube.

I'm beginning to think you don't even know what logical means. Success? lol, you haven't made a single point, it's been repeatedly put to you what the thread is actually about but you insist on trolling nonsense. You should know as a troll that claiming some kind of victory/success without actually making a half point is automatic failure.

Check the link I posted above, just one example of a whole article about hate on M43 ... I know you're select reading and not paying attention but there's a bunch more out there, it takes less time to search for them than to come up with these zero meaning posts.

 

[Baloo]

I'm beginning to think you don't even know what logical means. Success? lol, you haven't made a single point, it's been repeatedly put to you what the thread is actually about but you insist on trolling nonsense. Check the link I posted above, just one example of a whole article about hate on M43 ... I know you're select reading and not paying attention but there's a bunch more out there, it takes less time to search for them than to come up with these zero meaning posts.

And back to Ad Hominem.
You have provided no evidence to back up your original statements, indeed you simply created a strawman.
Goodnight, enjoy fighting windmills.

 

[JYC]

Unless you're feeling insecure about your equipment choices why would you even care about negative articles on the internet? I don't understand why it concerns you so much? You don't work for Panasonic or Olympus, it makes no difference what others think

 

[Cagey75]

Unless you're feeling insecure about your equipment choices why would you even care about negative articles on the internet? I don't understand why it concerns you so much? You don't work for Panasonic or Olympus, it makes no difference what others think

Who are you asking? I'm not the guy in the video, just because he is Irish Maybe go ask him? I just agreed with him, I'm not sure what you don't get here. We've established that @Bearair is nothing but a troll with zero point to make - maybe he's just bored and has no life, who knows? So I guess you're next up. I personally don't care about those articles, I posted that because troll there said there was no such issue, there's a bunch of similar articles, I come across them when looking up M43 stuffs. I have come across them for a long time, but never posted because I personally do not care. Seeing that video just reminded of it.

If any of this bothered me I'd already have reported Bob for calling me a dick. I may have very forward opinions but I didn't personally insult anyone.

 

[dcash29]

I do believe/feel there is a snobbishness against M43, as if it was some crappy beginner system, no good for pro work, can't be taken seriously, lousy DOF etc ...

What do you think?

That most M43 users need to stop comparing it to FF and get on with their photography. Some things are better, some things are worse.

Photography was a lot more fun when you didnt have videos and comments being rammed down your throat every five minutes, you just got on with it.

 

[woof woof]

That most M43 users need to stop comparing it to FF and get on with their photography. Some things are better, some things are worse.

I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing MFT to FF or to APS-C or anything else and in fact I think it's a good idea to do so to keep abreast of what's going on in the market and be well informed and able to make a decision when it comes to buying stuff.

I have both FF and MFT and I can't help but compare them to each other all the time

Photography was a lot more fun when you didnt have videos and comments being rammed down your throat every five minutes, you just got on with it.

As long as there's been photographers there's been dialogue, debate and even argument but in the dim and distant past it all took place without the net.

I suppose you could say that back then it was easy to ignore all this, all you had to do was burn without opening any letters that arrived from photographers you wanted to ignore and never read a photography publication but these days it's even easier to bypass stuff you don't want to get involved in... just turn the pc off or if that's too extreme just don't click on the thread

 

[Cagey75]

That most M43 users need to stop comparing it to FF and get on with their photography. Some things are better, some things are worse.

Photography was a lot more fun when you didnt have videos and comments being rammed down your throat every five minutes, you just got on with it.

You know what, I agree with this 100%. We are force fed a lot of opinion and it's constant 'must have' this or that, not just with cameras or lenses, but all kinds of gadgets and electronics. I just don't like lordiness, elitism or cliques. I don't like people who sneer at 'lesser' gear because they're lucky enough to have the latest and greatest. I have the same respect for someone using a 10yr old bridge camera as I would for someone using a Hasselblad, so long as they're happy using it and produce nice images.

these days it's even easier to bypass stuff you don't want to get involved in... just turn the pc off or if that's too extreme just don't click on the thread

I think some just come in because they see it's me and want to have a pop without any other contribution tbh. Call that ego, but it's true.

 

[dcash29]

I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing MFT to FF or to APS-C or anything else and in fact I think it's a good idea to do so to keep abreast of what's going on in the market and be well informed and able to make a decision when it comes to buying stuff.

I have both FF and MFT and I can't help but compare them to each other all the time



As long as there's been photographers there's been dialogue, debate and even argument but in the dim and distant past it all took place without the net.

I suppose you could say that back then it was easy to ignore all this, all you had to do was burn without opening any letters that arrived from photographers you wanted to ignore and never read a photography publication but these days it's even easier to bypass stuff you don't want to get involved in... just turn the pc off or if that's too extreme just don't click on the thread

Of course and I compare all three from time to time and have my own opinion. However over the years there's been a lot of crap about quality and what certain equipment can produce, only for it to be swallowed and spat out months later after people realise the truth.
I much prefer it when someone with a S****y old camera wipes the floor with someone that owns all singing all dancing mega bucks equipment.

 

[Cagey75]

I think I was actually at my happiest photography wise when I used a Fuji s1000fd. Not even good for a bridge camera, but I learned how to use manual controls on it - once I realised how limited it was I felt the urge to move to dslr. It would only stop down to f/8, and had a max of 1600 ISO [could push to 3200 but with 3mp files only] and you really didn't want to go there anyway! - The shutter had a max speed of 1/2000, max exposure was 8 seconds [this turned out to be the reason I wanted to upgrade as I was experimenting a lot at the time with long exposures] It also had a really tiny sensor. Thing is, I really enjoyed using it, I had used small crappy compacts for many years prior and never really bothered with any kind of manual controls. I was all about simple point, and click. Once I got the bug, the need for smaller apertures and longer exposures, it was time to move on. My first dsle was actually a Sony. But I swear, I was happier then, I didn't even know what full frame was nor would I have cared, not until much later on. Since then I have been through APSC in many forms, Full frame with the D800E, a true beast! And now with M43.

And for anyone bothered, my own personal thoughts on M43, as nobody asked, but were quick to tell me how they imagine I feel about it -

Why did I bother? Because IBIS mostly, and thought I might use 4K more so, that's not really happened but nice to know it's there if I want it. The IBIS on these little cameras is amazing, and I love that it works with any lens that you can attach, inc old vintage adapted lenses. You only need tell the camera what the focal length is and it works just as well as it does with native lenses from there on.

What are my complaints about M43? - this is a weird one, but some of the lenses are too small! I like something to cup with my left hand, it's just what I'm more used to, but I do appreciate how discreet a tiny prime on an already small body can be for candid shooting. The ISO performance is not as bad as some make out, but still I would like it a bit cleaner, I rather less NR in post, and you cannot beat full frame for low light performance on that front. Dynamic range isn't a patch on the Nikon FF either, but I never expected it would be. You really do not want to be having to push shadows in post, you need to be more on point with your exposures, but that just makes you less lazy. Highlight recovery has actually impressed me though, again it could be better but it's pretty decent.

The aspect ratio took a little getting used to, but now I don't mind it, I could always use the 3:2 mode if I preferred though there is some cropping with that. The AF is fine for stills - it could be better, for video I have found the G80 lacking, it has Face-rec and eye detect etc ... but with some lenses it's not greatly reliable, you would be better to manual focus, but then lenses like the Sigma 16mm 1.4 and Olympus 12-40 2.8 are reportedly very decent and nippy with the AF for video. I have yet to try either. otherwise I have little to moan about, and not just because I bought it. I sold on an Olympus em5 because it was a bit too small, lacked grip and my fingers would cramp up after a while using it. But the G80 is more comfortable then either Fuji body I had previous

So no, I do not think m43 is perfect, I don't think any system is. But outside of lesser ISO performance and not so great DR I don't see what anyone has to complain about.