Mac, Pc Build or Built

Take upgrading - the ability to upgrade any Mac (excepting the Pro and their servers) beyond memory and hard drive upgrades is simply not an option. Apple Macs have a far, far longer shelf life than their PC equivalents. You can run - and it will run happily too - the latest version of OS X on a 867Mhz G4 Mac, of which a model was available in 2002.

silly really. I bought an xp machine with some pentium 4 in 2002. It still runs CS3 well and now on vista..I think I bought it for £500 from dell (horror!) and it lasted around 6-7 years (until it went to the technology graveyard that is the parents) so it cost me about £100/year...should have turned into sherbet by now surely

amazing how some will defend their purchases 'till the bitter end...a mac user and their money are easily parted...all in jest of course :D
 
as a PC user i have read this with intrest but most Mac use tell one story but please read this:-
For the first time, Apple is recommending the use of anti-virus tools to protect Mac systems
Long something of a phantom menace, strains of malware capable of infecting Mac machines have gradually been increasing in prevalence over recent months. In addition, VXers are making more use of web-based attack and applications specific vulnerabilities to infect PCs whatever their underlying operating system might be.
The admission that security scanner software was a good idea for Mac users came in an unheralded update to Apple's support site made on 21 November 2008
Apple goes further than just recommending the use of one scanner to advise the use of multiple tools. "Apple encourages the widespread use of multiple anti-virus utilities so that virus programmers have more than one application to circumvent, thus making the whole virus writing process more difficult," it said.
Quite aside from the expense, the use of multiple anti-virus scanners could affect system performance and smacks of overkill. Users who use one anti-virus scanner, a personal firewall and keeping up to date with patching would be safer than just relying on two anti-virus scanners to bail them out of trouble, according to general security best-practice.
Using multiple scanners on mail gateways and servers makes sense, but on the desktop the advice is a lot more questionable.
Apple suggests Intego VirusBarrier, Symantec Norton Anti-Virus 11 for Macintosh and McAfee VirusScan for Mac as possible security options. All these packages come at a price, while AVG is well known for supplying a basic version of its anti-virus software to Windows consumers at home at no charge. Avast! Home Edition and Clam AV provide similar options for Mac users.

They've since retracted and removed that recommendation ;) Actually, only a few days after it was posted to the Apple site.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10111958-83.html
 
as a PC user i have read this with intrest but most Mac use tell one story but please read this:-
For the first time, Apple is recommending the use of anti-virus tools to protect Mac systems
Long something of a phantom menace, strains of malware capable of infecting Mac machines have gradually been increasing in prevalence over recent months. In addition, VXers are making more use of web-based attack and applications specific vulnerabilities to infect PCs whatever their underlying operating system might be.
The admission that security scanner software was a good idea for Mac users came in an unheralded update to Apple's support site made on 21 November 2008
Apple goes further than just recommending the use of one scanner to advise the use of multiple tools. "Apple encourages the widespread use of multiple anti-virus utilities so that virus programmers have more than one application to circumvent, thus making the whole virus writing process more difficult," it said.
Quite aside from the expense, the use of multiple anti-virus scanners could affect system performance and smacks of overkill. Users who use one anti-virus scanner, a personal firewall and keeping up to date with patching would be safer than just relying on two anti-virus scanners to bail them out of trouble, according to general security best-practice.
Using multiple scanners on mail gateways and servers makes sense, but on the desktop the advice is a lot more questionable.
Apple suggests Intego VirusBarrier, Symantec Norton Anti-Virus 11 for Macintosh and McAfee VirusScan for Mac as possible security options. All these packages come at a price, while AVG is well known for supplying a basic version of its anti-virus software to Windows consumers at home at no charge. Avast! Home Edition and Clam AV provide similar options for Mac users.

This is called closing the stable door whilst the horse is asleep :) Macs ARE more secure than PCs due to being sat on top of unix. It is possible to write a virus that will infect Macs but as yet the only problems have been TROJAN attacks where someone downloads a hooky piece of software and installs it. The main reason AT THE MOMENT for installing anti virus software is to protect Windows users by passing them on BUT the time will come when viruses do start to appear on the Mac. I would not be surprised though if Apple include a virus protection program as part of MacOS within a year or so.

There is absolutely no reason that viruses have not infected Macs yet but being in the minority has made it more difficult for them!
 
BUT the time will come when viruses do start to appear on the Mac. I would not be surprised though if Apple include a virus protection program as part of MacOS within a year or so.

i said roughly that not so long ago and got slated for it.

mind you, how do you know your macs havent got viruses if you havent got the software to detect them? :thinking:

:p
 
i said roughly that not so long ago and got slated for it.

mind you, how do you know your macs havent got viruses if you havent got the software to detect them? :thinking:

:p

I haven't got a puncture and I can tell that without an expensive puncture detection system on the car! I am sure someone would have noticed by now and there are some anti-virus programs for the mac - they have not found any either!
 
mac had to change over to the same processors as PC as they could not make there own go any faster.

Yes thats true but the processor isn't microsoft's it is intel's. Microsoft and Apple use what they feel is the best thing for them at that time and Apple decided that the work done on the X86 platform had eventually produced a better processor.

The G4 processor was a better processor than the intel equivalent for the same clock speed at the time. The G5 had quite horrific heat problems, a third of the G5 Mac pro was heat sink/water cooling ;) and it was impossible to fit a G5 in a laptop !

I switched to Apple after they switched to Intel although I have owned an iBook which had the G4 processor.
 
Actually Photoshop AND Lightroom were written for the Mac FIRST !

As were Excel and Powerpoint :) (Microsoft bought them and ported them to the PC!)


I have used Lightroom and Photoshop on BOTH and you forget which computer you are using, they are basically exactly the same !

The originals very probably, but the new versions (CS3 and 4) were written for the PC first. Problems wise there is no 64x version of the mac from what I remember, which causes all sorts of issues with RAM and multiple cores:)
 
try supporting 40 macs on a daily basis without having to reboot a few..

Depends on 1) setting them up properly in the first place 2) user stupidity :p

Although I am the Mac daddy, so no doubt inferior techs will have to deal with issues I don't :naughty:
 
Depends on 1) setting them up properly in the first place 2) user stupidity :p

Although I am the Mac daddy, so no doubt inferior techs will have to deal with issues I don't :naughty:

lol - i could argue the same about windows issues listed above ;)

last forced quit/reboot i had to do was illustrator hanging. none of those reasons you listed were the cause..
 
I've got to address some of your points because they're patently incorrect.



In 2006, there were two mac viruses "in the wild". There has been less than a handful since then. Viruses on macs are simply not something that Mac users need to be concerned about. The same with spyware and security as a whole on a Mac is far tighter. Yes, there was the recent hacker who supposedly hacked into OS X within 10 seconds. Well, it was actually a Safari exploit that required visiting a particular website. Read more into that story and you'll soon read it was actually a load of rubbish. (The guy typed in the URL to a previously prepared server he'd spent hours setting up before the competition).

Which is why there are numerous antiviruses out there for the mac, and Apple recommend you have one for your mac? There are plenty of viruses and malware out there for a mac. And no, the main reason there are less viruses out there for macs is due to the proportion of them in relation to Windows machines. If you want to cause as much damage/make as much money as possible, do you 1) make a virus for a platform that has less that 20% share in the market, or do you 2) make one for one that has an 80% share?...

"Then you need to realise macs do get viruses, crash, need upgrading, can slow down, have problems, to a very similar extent to windows PC's." is absolute rubbish. Macs do crash, there's no denying that. All computer systems crash (yes, Linux does too). Macs do not get viruses, need upgrading nor have problems anywhere close to "a very similar extent" to windows. That is simply untrue.

Take upgrading - the ability to upgrade any Mac (excepting the Pro and their servers) beyond memory and hard drive upgrades is simply not an option. Apple Macs have a far, far longer shelf life than their PC equivalents. You can run - and it will run happily too - the latest version of OS X on a 867Mhz G4 Mac, of which a model was available in 2002.

This is one of the claimes that I was referring to in the post you quoted. With the creation of XP (and especially SP2 or it) the stability issue went out the window. Even more so when vist came about, I have two machines running vista and in over 2 years (in fact since the Beta version). I have not had a single crash, I have had the occasional program crash yes, generally because of Adobe flash, but nothing related to the vista core itself. Stability issues are really a non issue with both of todays windows and mac OS's, bot crash so rarely there is no argument any more.

As for updating, macs do it quite regularly, in most mac users don't ralise because they are done more "behind the scenes" than windows ones, to the point a lot of security experts get a bit cheesed off with Apple, as most of the time they are not told what these security updates actually cover.

As for hardware upgrading, they have a longer shelf life because they are upgraded less, is that supposed to be a positive? Yes that means your 3 year old mac is not going to be as out of date against other macs, but it will still have the same performance as a 3 year old mac, and be more out of date compared to a PC. If upgrading only affected the OS then you would have an argument there, but it doesn't. It affects all sorts of things, from file opening times, processing times and encoding/compressing times to name a few. A faster processor/more ram will always make something faster, and this is needed as files get bigger, and processes get more intensive every year. (incidently this is another prime example of an argument mac fanatics come out with, and what I was alluding to with mythical hardware). Upgrading is not a requirement for windows PC's either, and generally most windows PC's won't be upgraded.




I've never, ever heard the "Macs start instantly" claim. Where did you find this claim? I don't really know how long my macbook takes to boot up, I never reboot it.

Read the link for starters. It's also one of the main arguments mac fanatics come up with regularly. And as for rebooting, I very rarely do mine either, and once ordinary people are shown the sleep/hibernate modes in windows PC they rarely do either.


Photoshop 1.0 was written exclusively for the Mac. It's never been "ported (with a couple of problems) to OS X. That's a load of rubbish. The first version of Photoshop for Windows was 2.5. And I can't find a single article on how Lightroom was ported from Windows to OS X either. By all means enlighten me. Software like this isn't "ported". How is Vista in any way a better OS for photo editing? What could I do in Vista to my photos that I couldn't with OS X?

See my other post about this, I wasn't talking about the old versions, I was talking about the versions that are used NOW. As for porting, most of the background code will be written for one machine, then altered to work on other platforms. This way you don't have two entirely different teams working on the same project at the same time, it saves time and money. The only issue with it is that sometimes it can be difficult for certain parts of the program to work as well on the ported as the original platform, without rewriting the entire code base.



As a whole, Macs are used by the creative industry because it's a more reliable platform that simply gets out of the way and lets users get on with their job. "Better" is personal. I've been a Mac user for about 4 years now. It is a "better" system for me. At the end of the day, I can get more work done with OS X than I can with Windows or Linux and I'm more confident in Apple hardware and software than I am with Windows and a machine from a PC manufacturer. That's simply going on my personal experience.

Possibly true in the past but again, not now, so with that in mind there are two reasons I can think for companies to keep using macs, 1), you don't need to retrain people in your organisation to use another OS and 2) you don't need to rebuy/find software/hardware to go with your newly bought machine. For new users these constraints aren't there, and so the culture part comes in.

I'm perfectly fine with you saying you can use OSX faster, but as you said it's personal, doesn't mean others can. Which is what my original post was alluding to. It's a personal thing, get rid of the stupid marketing speal round both OS's and just think about which OS is more intuitive for you. Don't buy into the hype.

I hate debates like this, as they go through exactly the same points over and over. The first paragraph comes back to the end of this post: Most of the supposed benefits touted by mac users are either older than time or just plain wrong, with the rest being personal opinion (where I have no problem).

So yeah, to the OP, just have a play around with both OS's and see which one you prefer, forget about the stability and "facts" touted around by both sides and just see which one you enjoy using more (if you have the extra money, as essentially you are paying an extra few hundred pounds for the OS user interface).
 
Cut from my post in the pc or mac thread.
Take note of the latest custom pc, mag mention....

whether pc or mac set your price point and see what you can get.
Personally having built pc's for years and having very stable sytems and always updating the virus software with free top class software Avast.
I still got fed up of all the junk and slow downs etc defrag etc.
For me and many others the Mac looks cool as ever, but does all i want and its all in one unit the screen of my imac no issues no freezes no virus etc etc.
I love it, you can get all your software in mac format.
The choice is yours.
Just to point out that custom pc this month has a feature comparing the imac to a custom build, very informative.
They build a imac beater for a bit more than the imac at imac new price point.
They then change some components such as taking out liquid cooling and down grading the graphics card to bring it in at £300+ less than imac and 25 or 35% faster.
Good mag anyway and i would say a valued purchase in your position to help you decide especially if you go the home build route.
I would use xp on a windows system not vista its too hungry.
All the best and let us know how you go on.
I still love my mac and will never change.

Those points highlighted in bold:

Slow down does not occur on Vista, it automatically defrags when the system is not in use, and due to the way the core was written it does not slow down over time. In fact I have not reinstalled vista once after installing the retail version (over the release candidate) in two years, and it hasn't slowed down at all, in comparison I reinstalled XP every few months (the common view of most users of vista). Any other slow down is due to user error, usually caused by installing too many browser search bars and smilie programs...

As for using XP instead of Vista, that's just silly (unless you have an old PC or netbook), anyone installing XP on a new PC (that isn't for a corporate environment) is wasting their time and money. If your PC has over 1GB of ram Vista will work fine, more than 2GB then Vista will fly. For some reason Vista was ripped apart by people who hadn't even used it (and generally didn't understand it), helped along by the tiny minority that had had problems with it when it first came out. Since the update there really is no excuses.

They've since retracted and removed that recommendation ;) Actually, only a few days after it was posted to the Apple site.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10111958-83.html

I knew about this, and the article is an interesting read, although not necessarily in Apples favour, it looks all the reason for a marketing standpoint and not technical, even Apple there recommend you use an antivirus. Another interesting part is the bit about malware moving from crascks in OS's and into browsers and other software, reason? Microsoft got their act together with XP and Vista and have made it very hard for virus writers to get into the system. Cause? Both OSX and Vista are going to have the same problems with viruses, as these viruses aren't OS specific...

This is called closing the stable door whilst the horse is asleep :) Macs ARE more secure than PCs due to being sat on top of unix. It is possible to write a virus that will infect Macs but as yet the only problems have been TROJAN attacks where someone downloads a hooky piece of software and installs it. The main reason AT THE MOMENT for installing anti virus software is to protect Windows users by passing them on BUT the time will come when viruses do start to appear on the Mac. I would not be surprised though if Apple include a virus protection program as part of MacOS within a year or so.

There is absolutely no reason that viruses have not infected Macs yet but being in the minority has made it more difficult for them!

With much respect, please remove your head from the sand, yes some of that was true (and to an extent now) but as the above quoted article states (along with plenty of mac forums and specialists) the rise of macs and the change from attacking windows to attacking multi OS software has caused mac infection chances to increase massively.

And it's all very nice of you to "protect" windows users from having viruses passed on to them, but they will already have a virus scanner installed. However... a large proportion of modern viruses won't show themselves to anything other than an anti-virus scanner, whilst still nicely passing on your details to the WWW, and even using your machine as a proxy server, nice of you to let them.;)
 
With much respect, please remove your head from the sand, yes some of that was true (and to an extent now) but as the above quoted article states (along with plenty of mac forums and specialists) the rise of macs and the change from attacking windows to attacking multi OS software has caused mac infection chances to increase massively.

I use all three major OSes not just MacOS. I don't have an axe to grind and I know a lot about each OS. Nothing stated by me is wrong. I quite like Windows 7 and I still like XP. There is no actual 'in the wild' virus for MacOS as yet. There are other types of attack including one recently which was a Trojan hidden in a hooky copy of iWork09.

These PC v Mac threads always end up doing this. Someone says something about one of the computers and someone corrects it then someone else joins in etc etc. They both do the job. Some prefer MacOS, some Windows. I have both but my main machines are MacOS now. I simply corrected something said and would have done so the other way!

I do not have anti virus software on the mac because it does not need it yet. When it does I will. There have been reports of viruses for the Mac but they have all just been smoke, they are however possible!
 
I think the PC fanboys are getting worse than the Mac fanboys.

They are just tools FFS! (The Macs/PCs, not the fanboys ;) )
 
There are advantages and disadvantages to all of them:

PC

+ Cheaper
+ More easily upgraded (in that upgrades come out quicker and you don't have to wait for Apple - mainly things like graphics cards)
- Less reliable (but maybe not as big a difference as people think if built well)
- Less stable (again yes but maybe not as big a difference as people think if setup well)
- More expensive OS! (macOS has one option with everything included and family pack is fantastic value)
+ Quicker for new stuff to be included
+ SLIGHTLY more choice in software
+ More hardware choice.
- Bigger target for hackers/viruses/trojans etc

MAC

- More expensive
+ High residual value
+ Kudos/pose factor ?
+ Better design (iMac, mac pro, new macbooks etc etc)
+ More reliable (see above)
+ More stable (see above)
- less peripherals work with it so less choice
- a lot of peripherals are much more expensive (video cards are the biggest problem)
- less choice of peripherals
+ vastly reduced chance of being attacked by hackers etc

LINUX

+ FREE
+ FREE SOFTWARE
+ More secure
- More difficult to setup/use (but not impossible!)
- Less software choice re commercial software
- More difficult to setup peripherals/compatibility (getting better though)
- Considered a bit nerdy
- less choice of peripherals
+ vastly reduced chance of being attacked by hackers etc


Obviously these are my personal views, I use ALL of these. I get treated as a Mac Fanboy on occasion when I jump in and correct someone BUT I also correct Mac users in relation to Windows! I use Windows XP and VISTA and have licenses for both. I am beta testing Windows 7 and I also use two variants of linux. I run MacOS on my main machines but that is because I love the Mac pro and Macbook pro they are gorgeous I do prefer MacOS and my software licenses are for the Mac versions of software so I stick to the one OS as a main TOOL. Yes TOOL that is what it is.

I do the "MacOS tip and day for a year" thread because I can and because people are switching and will find it useful. It would be less useful for Windows because there is a lot more information out there for Windows and people always know someone to help them.

Why doesn't someone jump in and do a tip and day for Windows :)
 
Which is why there are numerous antiviruses out there for the mac, and Apple recommend you have one for your mac? There are plenty of viruses and malware out there for a mac. And no, the main reason there are less viruses out there for macs is due to the proportion of them in relation to Windows machines. If you want to cause as much damage/make as much money as possible, do you 1) make a virus for a platform that has less that 20% share in the market, or do you 2) make one for one that has an 80% share?...

Apple don't recommend you use anti-virus software. The recommendation was pulled. Why are there numerous antivirus applications for the mac? Same reason there's multiple text editors, graphics applications, web browsers, mail tools etc. for the mac (or windows or linux). There is malware for the Mac out there, and there are a handful, if that, of viruses. I certainly wouldn't describe the number as "plenty". There were two known viruses in the wild up until 2006. I've heard of a couple of trojans since but nothing that has caused any significant or insignificant damage. Whether it's because there are less Macs or whether it's because OS X is a more secure operating system - it's probably both reasons, at the end of the day, at this point in time Mac users really don't need to be concerned with viruses.

As for updating, macs do it quite regularly, in most mac users don't ralise because they are done more "behind the scenes" than windows ones, to the point a lot of security experts get a bit cheesed off with Apple, as most of the time they are not told what these security updates actually cover.

That's actually a load of rubbish. All security updates are done through Software Update, not through some behind the scenes nonsense. The security updates are very clear and are well documented on the Apple support site. I would love to know where you get your information from. If you're going to make statements such as this, at least back it up with some references. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong on this or any matter but having done some searches I can't find any references to what you're claiming.

As for hardware upgrading, they have a longer shelf life because they are upgraded less, is that supposed to be a positive? Yes that means your 3 year old mac is not going to be as out of date against other macs, but it will still have the same performance as a 3 year old mac, and be more out of date compared to a PC.

Of course it's a positive! If you're going to spend a grand on a computer, you want it to last. You want the most value you can get out of your money, surely? Why would it NOT be a positive? If a 3 year old Mac is capable of running the latest and greatest version of the operating system and whatever software you choose to run, then is that not a good thing? Who cares if it's out of date compared with a PC or even a recent Mac? What difference does that make if it continues to run the software you want to run. My Macbook Pro I recently sold was a 3 year old machine and I would have been more than happy to continue using it if I didn't want a smaller, more portable laptop. That was the sole reason I've since move to a new Macbook.

And you can't compare the performance of a Mac with a PC being as they run different operating systems. The performance of a 2GHz Mac running OS X can't be compared with the performance of a 2GHz PC running Vista.

Read the link for starters. It's also one of the main arguments mac fanatics come up with regularly. And as for rebooting, I very rarely do mine either, and once ordinary people are shown the sleep/hibernate modes in windows PC they rarely do either.

Which link? It's not a main argument that "mac fanatics come up with regularly". I'm a "mac fanatic" and have never claimed that OS X boots up instantly. I've never, ever heard this claim from any mac user. Let me know your source for this claim.

I knew about this, and the article is an interesting read, although not necessarily in Apples favour, it looks all the reason for a marketing standpoint and not technical, even Apple there recommend you use an antivirus.

No, as it says in that document, Apple have retracted their recommendation that you use an antivirus.
 
With much respect, please remove your head from the sand, yes some of that was true (and to an extent now) but as the above quoted article states (along with plenty of mac forums and specialists) the rise of macs and the change from attacking windows to attacking multi OS software has caused mac infection chances to increase massively.
How rude! And fundamentally wrong.

Yes, it is possible for a mac to be infected. Possible but unlikely. Of the very few 'detected' so far, some were crafted in a laboratory to prove it was possible to infect a mac. Not that anyone ever suggested it wasn't possible in the first place.

The risk IS there but the difference between OS-X and MS risk is huge. Think of having a Microsoft picnic with 10,000 wasps within 100 feet. Then consider a mac picnic knowing there are just three wasps somewhere in the county. The risk is massively different.
 
I use all three major OSes not just MacOS. I don't have an axe to grind and I know a lot about each OS. Nothing stated by me is wrong. I quite like Windows 7 and I still like XP. There is no actual 'in the wild' virus for MacOS as yet. There are other types of attack including one recently which was a Trojan hidden in a hooky copy of iWork09.

These PC v Mac threads always end up doing this. Someone says something about one of the computers and someone corrects it then someone else joins in etc etc. They both do the job. Some prefer MacOS, some Windows. I have both but my main machines are MacOS now. I simply corrected something said and would have done so the other way!

I do not have anti virus software on the mac because it does not need it yet. When it does I will. There have been reports of viruses for the Mac but they have all just been smoke, they are however possible!

Lets get this clear, my mention of viruses is a generic term for trojams, keyloggers and spyware? I assume you are working by the same definition, and with that definition there are plenty of those out there for the mac. There may not be as many as for windows OS's, that's beyond dispute, but there are some out there.

I hate these threads too, and I too came in here to correct the people stating falsehoods, such macs would change your life, and make you faster (not personal, but insinuating everyone would be faster, are completely stable (unlike windows OS's, OMG!!!!11) and those facts I wrote about.

And I agree again, both systems are just tools, and are good in different ways, which is better is personal opinion, and IMO I can't see a difference, both have their charms and both their annoyances, why it gets so fanboyish I don't know (but then I guess people argue til they are blue that Nvidia or ATI are better so...)


Apple don't recommend you use anti-virus software. The recommendation was pulled. Why are there numerous antivirus applications for the mac? Same reason there's multiple text editors, graphics applications, web browsers, mail tools etc. for the mac (or windows or linux). There is malware for the Mac out there, and there are a handful, if that, of viruses. I certainly wouldn't describe the number as "plenty". There were two known viruses in the wild up until 2006. I've heard of a couple of trojans since but nothing that has caused any significant or insignificant damage. Whether it's because there are less Macs or whether it's because OS X is a more secure operating system - it's probably both reasons, at the end of the day, at this point in time Mac users really don't need to be concerned with viruses.

See my other comments on this issue.:)

That's actually a load of rubbish. All security updates are done through Software Update, not through some behind the scenes nonsense. The security updates are very clear and are well documented on the Apple support site. I would love to know where you get your information from. If you're going to make statements such as this, at least back it up with some references. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong on this or any matter but having done some searches I can't find any references to what you're claiming.

I'll go see if I can find one for you, but I know there have been a few times security experts have cursed Apple for not releasing the information about certain patches that were seen to be particularly important.



Of course it's a positive! If you're going to spend a grand on a computer, you want it to last. You want the most value you can get out of your money, surely? Why would it NOT be a positive? If a 3 year old Mac is capable of running the latest and greatest version of the operating system and whatever software you choose to run, then is that not a good thing? Who cares if it's out of date compared with a PC or even a recent Mac? What difference does that make if it continues to run the software you want to run. My Macbook Pro I recently sold was a 3 year old machine and I would have been more than happy to continue using it if I didn't want a smaller, more portable laptop. That was the sole reason I've since move to a new Macbook.

And you can't compare the performance of a Mac with a PC being as they run different operating systems. The performance of a 2GHz Mac running OS X can't be compared with the performance of a 2GHz PC running Vista.

Again, what? Just because there is new technology out there doesn't mean your machine is obselete, the only people who care about that are tech freaks and posers. And as for a "3 year old mac being able to run is the latest and greatest version of the operating system and whatever software you choose to run", the same can be said exact same can be said for a windows machine too, in fact the PC I am sitting at right now is around 4 years old, and it runs Vista and any other software I can throw at it like a dream, in fact that is why I haven't upgraded anything except the case and HDD's since I first built it... I don't care that there is technology that betters it out, and I will only upgrade when I find this PC to start not being capable of running some software I want to use, and that will probably be in another 4 years (and it will probably be due to a computer game).

So you are trying to tell me that somehow a mac can utilise 2GHz better than a windows machine? How so, there are only so many cycles a 2GHz processer can go through, and those cycles can be used equally as well by an OSX or Windows machine when doing things like compressing, encoding or using filters in CS4. Unless there is some mythical technology that that Apple use...;)


Which link? It's not a main argument that "mac fanatics come up with regularly". I'm a "mac fanatic" and have never claimed that OS X boots up instantly. I've never, ever heard this claim from any mac user. Let me know your source for this claim.

The link in my first post (admittedly Ken Rockwell), and you may have never heard it, but I have heard it lots of times in threads like this. I (and lots of others) point it out when it is brought up.



No, as it says in that document, Apple have retracted their recommendation that you use an antivirus.

Apple spokesman Bill Evans said:
"The Mac is designed with built-in technologies that provide protection against malicious software and security threats right out of the box," he said. "However, since no system can be 100 percent immune from every threat, running antivirus software may offer additional protection."

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10111958-83.html

About the retraction of the statement...

Also

There are no known viruses in the wild that exploit a vulnerability in the Mac OS, and Windows continues to be the overwhelming preference for malware writers to target their programs. But malware isn't just taking advantage of operating system weaknesses anymore. In fact, the majority of such threats now come from code that targets weaknesses in browsers and other applications that aren't platform specific.

(And yes I know it says no kinwn viruses tha exploit the Mac OS, but I wasn't talking about just the Mac OS, I was talking about software too...
 
So you are trying to tell me that somehow a mac can utilise 2GHz better than a windows machine? How so, there are only so many cycles a 2GHz processer can go through, and those cycles can be used equally as well by an OSX or Windows machine when doing things like compressing, encoding or using filters in CS4. Unless there is some mythical technology that that Apple use...;)

I've lost interest in this thread so only going to respond to this point, but yes. OS X is a more efficient operating system than Windows. It utilises the hardware more efficiently, so yes OS X can utilise a 2ghz processor better than Windows. I'm unable to find my resource at the moment, but I'll dig it out. However, for example here's some benchmarks comparing Ubuntu vs. OS X.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_jaunty_osx&num=2

It's nothing to do with processor cycles per say but if the operating system is clogged up with services and other resource hungry system tasks, then clearly it's going to be a less efficient operating system.

Actually just found something here. It's a little out of date but it shows some benchmark results comparing a similar specced macbook with a similar specced PC laptop.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4258725.html?page=4#benchmarks

It also shows benchmark results on the macbook running OS X and Vista under bootcamp and excepting one or two results, OS X had a better performance.
 
Lets get this clear, my mention of viruses is a generic term for trojams, keyloggers and spyware? I assume you are working by the same definition, and with that definition there are plenty of those out there for the mac. There may not be as many as for windows OS's, that's beyond dispute, but there are some out there.

No actually I was talking about viruses and basically there are no actual wild viruses out there for the mac. As for trojans well in order for them to infect a mac the person has to install them which they have to physically do. This comes to the dodgy software installation problem..... The only trojan that has had any effect is a recent one that was installed through a hooky iWorks09 install program spread via torrents. Even that wasn't a major issue and would have been blocked by Little Snitch or setting the firewall in preferences. The reality is that you would have to be extremely unlucky to be attacked as a mac user whereas I have fixed Windows computers infected by several different viruses and trojans at the same time!! Like I said I have no axe to grind but Windows users seem to pick out the same things over and over and they are basically rubbish! I don't know of any Mac user that has as yet been attacked in any way on their mac and I know of quite a few! I am sure there are people out there. There are hundreds of thousands of Windows viruses and they are all over the place! If you are careful and know what you are doing you can reduce the risk though but it is still orders of magnitude higher under windows.
 
So essentially both platforms have their pluses amd minuses and windows has more viruses than OSX, none of which I was disputing.
 
If i remember correctly any Apple operating system is built to work with any apple upto 7 years old, but irrelevant.

We all got side tracked.

Back to evotwo's post,
Well i think you got a fair bit of info on this, perhaps not clear.
I say get custom pc mag as the article is of great intrest to you and will bring you upto speed to some degree on latest builds what the best kit is also its a great mag but even more releveance to you with the build a mac beater article.

I may be corrected but power saving wise i personally find the imac manages power usage a lot lot better, also i find it totally silent in operation.

I could not justify the 24" over the 20" but wish i found the extra only so i could have 2 browser windows open side by side on the one screen with no overlap.
Still love it, but get the custom pc mag i think its £3.90 but not sure.
Money well spent for your situation i think.

All the best evo.
 
So essentially both platforms have their pluses amd minuses and windows has more viruses than OSX, none of which I was disputing.

Almost, the statement "..windows has more viruses than OSX" is misleading and actually sounds like OSX has viruses. At this moment it doesn't. No effective viruses have been found in the wild for OSX. So the statement would read....

So essentially both platforms have their pluses amd minuses and windows viruses. :'(

Why do PC 'fans' always try and argue about viruses and malware. It is clearly an arguement you cannot possibly win. It is a big minus for Windows and a big plus for MacOS. If you want to argue anything about OSX then I would argue about graphics card support or something like that. When a new graphics card is released you can buy one and plug it into pretty much any PC with the right interface and away you go. Not so OSX you can only plug it in IF OSX supports it with the right driver. This basically means that as new Mac Pros come out with a new graphics card the card will not necessarily go in the older machine (it might though). It also means that I cannot go out and buy the latest generation of graphics card for my mac pro unless I go and buy the card from Apple. The latest card that will go in my variant 1 mac pro is one with the chipset from the variant 2 machine which will cost me around £200. If I bought the same card for my PC it would be £40!

Like I said both platforms have pluses and minuses. Learn to fight on a battle front you can win on rather than one you can't. Personally I don't actually care. I use all three and I know their strengths and weaknesses. At this time, for me, MACOS has the edge for what I use it for.
 
I've lost interest in this thread so only going to respond to this point, but yes. OS X is a more efficient operating system than Windows. It utilises the hardware more efficiently, so yes OS X can utilise a 2ghz processor better than Windows. I'm unable to find my resource at the moment, but I'll dig it out. However, for example here's some benchmarks comparing Ubuntu vs. OS X.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_jaunty_osx&num=2

It's nothing to do with processor cycles per say but if the operating system is clogged up with services and other resource hungry system tasks, then clearly it's going to be a less efficient operating system.

Actually just found something here. It's a little out of date but it shows some benchmark results comparing a similar specced macbook with a similar specced PC laptop.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4258725.html?page=4#benchmarks

It also shows benchmark results on the macbook running OS X and Vista under bootcamp and excepting one or two results, OS X had a better performance.

Just to reply to this (I too am getting bored). I had a quick google, and aside from finding it quite difficult to fing many at all (strange) I did find a couple.

The first, rather confused, seems to backtrack and go all over the place (from a mac forum), with it first stating the PC was faster and then doing teh test again and finding the mac faster. http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=658822

The second, far more useful, with a range of tests and bars to show the results, this one shows both winning at some things, to me indicating it is what you do with it, not that one platform is better than the other (which is sort of what I was getting at all along)
http://www.cnet.com.au/apple-mac-pro-240091602.htm

(These were the only comparisons I could find by typing in "pc mac encoding better" into google, and looking at the first couple of pages, no selection done).
 
If i remember correctly any Apple operating system is built to work with any apple upto 7 years old, but irrelevant.

We all got side tracked.

Back to evotwo's post,
Well i think you got a fair bit of info on this, perhaps not clear.
I say get custom pc mag as the article is of great intrest to you and will bring you upto speed to some degree on latest builds what the best kit is also its a great mag but even more releveance to you with the build a mac beater article.

I may be corrected but power saving wise i personally find the imac manages power usage a lot lot better, also i find it totally silent in operation.

I could not justify the 24" over the 20" but wish i found the extra only so i could have 2 browser windows open side by side on the one screen with no overlap.
Still love it, but get the custom pc mag i think its £3.90 but not sure.
Money well spent for your situation i think.

All the best evo.

I'd agree with that, have a look at building your own and have a look at a couple of apple machines, as well as some vaios and HP machines, and see which ones you like (and can afford). Just don't get drawn into the hype over either platform, just see what one you would prefer.

Almost, the statement "..windows has more viruses than OSX" is misleading and actually sounds like OSX has viruses. At this moment it doesn't. No effective viruses have been found in the wild for OSX. So the statement would read....

So essentially both platforms have their pluses amd minuses and windows viruses. :'(

If you really want to read it like that...

(Although just to clarify, I haven't had a virus in, well ever, on my windows PC...)

Why do PC 'fans' always try and argue about viruses and malware. It is clearly an arguement you cannot possibly win. It is a big minus for Windows and a big plus for MacOS. If you want to argue anything about OSX then I would argue about graphics card support or something like that. When a new graphics card is released you can buy one and plug it into pretty much any PC with the right interface and away you go. Not so OSX you can only plug it in IF OSX supports it with the right driver. This basically means that as new Mac Pros come out with a new graphics card the card will not necessarily go in the older machine (it might though). It also means that I cannot go out and buy the latest generation of graphics card for my mac pro unless I go and buy the card from Apple. The latest card that will go in my variant 1 mac pro is one with the chipset from the variant 2 machine which will cost me around £200. If I bought the same card for my PC it would be £40!

Like I said both platforms have pluses and minuses. Learn to fight on a battle front you can win on rather than one you can't. Personally I don't actually care. I use all three and I know their strengths and weaknesses. At this time, for me, MACOS has the edge for what I use it for.

Take it from me, i'm not a PC 'fan' as you put it, I use my PC as a tool, a tool that is best for the job in hand, which is why I got my windows laptop over a macbook, both had their plusses, but the Dell had more plusses than the macbook...

The reason we were arguing about viruses is because you and welly picked that up out of my first post and ran with it, the rest of my first post was left (largely) alone, and the one thing that had a little bit of "weakness" (although hopefully I have shown there are viruses, malware, trojans and other nasties capable of infecting macs) was taken out of proportion. What I don't like about mac 'fans' is their flat out denial that there is any security risks at all on their platform, (along with the other falacies). For some reason Apple (moreso than any other company I know) have created an army of fans (and let me point out, i'm not saying everyone with a mac is a fanboy, just some) that almost idolise it, one of the reasons there were queues round the block for the iphone when it was released (with people queuing with their macs to shw how much of a fan they were).

As for the Graphics cards, we did touch on that, but somehow the lack of upgradeability was seen as a plus point... I'm still not entirely sure how it can be either but there you go...

And your last sentence sums up pretty much what I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY ALL ALONG. It is all personal, both have their plusses and minuses, and some people will find ine better than the other for certain things (or just the way they work), but it's nto as clear cut as the first few "Get a mac, you won't regret it" posters seem to think.
 
as someone who has worked in IT for 20 odd years, I have used nothing but PC's - from DOS all the way thru windows 2.0,3.0,3.1,3.11,95,98,2000, XP and now vista. I did have a brief daliance with CPM but thats for another forum....

I like macs. They are fun machines. Very user friendly, good UI, and in the marketplace in which the operate, they perform very well. Indeed, if my professional life was involved with any time of design, graphics, presentation, media etc, I would probably use a Mac everytime.

But thats about it. For anything else, you need to get a real computer. I am not aware of many business applications, running in client server which will be compatible with MacOS. There are no serious database packages out there as far as I know.

Of course this is all changing with a shift towards platform independent applications running on java and the like, over a web browser. this means it doesnt matter which machine you have. in fact, you will soon be able to run it from your nintendo Wii..
 
Evotwo,

You know what a pc handles like but possibly not the mac.



I booked a one too one session at the local mac shop was about 15 miles away.
I loaded up a memmory stick with pdf files and good few pics.
Tried the mac out asked loads of questions played with aperture 2 and gave it a good spin.

Went home and ordered a refurb from the apple store.

Get the mag i mentioned and go have a play on some.

All the best,
James
 
Of course this is all changing with a shift towards platform independent applications running on java and the like, over a web browser. this means it doesnt matter which machine you have. in fact, you will soon be able to run it from your nintendo Wii..

I've been hearing that for the last 10 years, if not longer, and it's not here yet, and you still fall into the problems of browser editions, supporting frameworks etc, and you still need an OS under those!

SaaS is a growing market, but still requires an OS to get you online and connected too.

As for Mac's not being suitable for business, I work for a very large software company in the Application Delivery space, and since we introduced a Buy Your Own Computer policy, around 80% of those who enrolled bought Macbook Pro's, including the engineers working in pre-sales. I'd estimate around half our field based systems engineers run Apple devices, and most don't run virtualisation software (since our type 1 hypervisor isn't out yet ;) )
so are using purely Mac OS apps.

Anyhow, Mac OS / Windows / Linux, pay your money and take your choice. Personally, I can't abide Linux, too much mucking about, but Windows or Mac OS do me fine. Pro's and cons to each, but they both do an admirable job.

Custom built vs Off the Shelf, I've swung to off the shelf now, got fed up of tinkering and tweaking, I want to open the box, plug it in, switch it on, and be working in 10 minutes. The only custom built machine I have at home now is my XenServer.
 
Just to clarify.... When I mentioned that the macs 'just worked' as opposed to the built ones, I was referring to the operating system rather than the quality of my built computers. I used to build for others including a couple of local businesses. Home built from quality components is often of significantly better quality than bought machines. Heavily used machines running an MS OS have to be rebooted during the day. Macs don't.

What a load of tosh. I've ran my Vista PC at full CPU load for a week without rebooting in the past.

My advice to the OP would be not to get lurred in by, firstly all the people telling you to trust them that they magically know getting a Mac will be the best thing you ever do. And secondly, not to be won over by a fancy looking Apple case, there are some very slick looking PC case designs about, and for £1500 you will get a very nicely speced PC.
 
What you get with a Mac is stability, fantastic support (if and when you need it) and a great community and masses of flexibility in what kind of software you want to run

and a huge amount of religious dogma :lol:

I use a PC just because I don't want to have to wear sandals and grow a beard to keep my food in
 
I had very similar money and I have built a fantastic pc quad core Dual 1gb grahics cards that are bridged 8GB Ram 1TB hard disk and a very nice monitor. It is 2 years old now and has not been rebuilt, taken to pices or cajoled in to working.

I have a Mac Book Pro from work got it had it a week sent it back overheating.

now I am not saying Macs suck Windows is the best what I have found and I manage a rather large IT department is that you can be lucky/unlucky with whatever you buy so find the one that will do what you want it to do with the most ease.
 
Originally Posted by 2blue4u View Post
Just to clarify.... When I mentioned that the macs 'just worked' as opposed to the built ones, I was referring to the operating system rather than the quality of my built computers. I used to build for others including a couple of local businesses. Home built from quality components is often of significantly better quality than bought machines. Heavily used machines running an MS OS have to be rebooted during the day. Macs don't.

ooh i missed that post.

agree with yantorsten. that statement is utter balls. last time i rebooted my work vista64 laptop during the day (runs several remote desktops, IBM client apps, IE, Firefox, MS VPC, Outlook 07, monitoring apps etc etc all at the same time most days) was to complete an installation.

and, i think ive said it somewhere in one of these threads before, if you think you can support an office with a 40+ mac design dept without rebooting at least one then you are mistaken. they DO hang and they DO crash.

sorry if that sounds anti-mac, its not meant to be. i use macs in my normal working day and theyre not bad, but i really hate it when people spout rubbish.

(rant over)
 
Thanks all, some good info and much acted upon.

I did what was instructed and went to an apple store for a good hour + play on the machine of choice. They loaded Gimp for me with no fuss and left me to play. How nice it was not to feel as though I had to buy. Asked loads of questions and came away pretty well convinced that I would go for the Mac Pro for its flexability of upgrade and adding on, then decided that actually I needed to stop tinkering. So opted for a 24" 2.93GHz Intel Core 2 Duo I mac, which scored browny points with my other half.

The thing that really made me and my partner opt for the mac was the OS My partner found it far more intuitive than she had ever found a windows enviroment, which will hopefully mean that I will get bothered less with the "how do i do this" questions. I'm looking forward to learning this OS I hope it lives up to all that I have read about it, I certainly enjoyed using it in store.

So it will be here on Tuesday, can't wait to play

Thanks all

Paul
 
That's exactly the same decision I made (to stop tinkering!) and bought the same iMac, after owning a MacBook Pro for 10 months prior.

I really like the way that Apple stores work, they're not pushy, and you can take the stuff back within 14 days and they just refund it, even if bought in store.

Pick up an Applecare pack from eBay (for £55ish) in the first year and save around £100 on extending your warranty.
 
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