Beginner Manipulation

Messages
223
Name
Don
Edit My Images
Yes
Hi guys,

Been practicing away in RAW as usual and looking at the straight-from-camera image and going..'meh'
Thus, an adjustment in LR with shadows/highlights to get the image how I want peeps to see *what I seen* is now my norm. .

What I'm really getting at is, I oft find myself (at this early stage) leaning on LR for the highlight/shadow alteration...quite comfortable with majority of exposure + composition.
A straight-from-camera upload would be unthinkable :)

Should I be aiming more at in-camera technical know-how, to prevent a habit/reliance/ on PP?...
 
simply put , yes

that said with a raw some processing is inevitable , for a start they nearly always need sharpening. However its a good idea to get the shot as good as possible in camera so you can spend a minimum ammount of time in PP , rather than getting into the habit of taking mediocre shots and rescuing them in post
 
I started out from the purist 'I'll not bother with PP' perspective...then see that loads praise it..
Although its minor, only utilising the two LR sliders, a bitty concerned that I need to use them in the first place before showing peeps my pics..
 
Yeah I'd say you always want to be getting things as right as possible in camera obviously but with that said RAW shooting will almost always benefit from some post editing.

The majority of lightroom editors I know will do the same as you & literally push the highlight/shadow sliders to their limits & they tend to do it right at the start of editing & then take the image from there adjusting to their taste. If you're happy with the exposure & shooting in RAW then a few minutes adjusting the sliders to perfect the image to your liking is to be expected & sounds all standard to me.

If you were adjusting exposure sliders a lot I'd be more inclined to worry about that.
 
The usual reason for needing the sliders is if the brightest and darkest portions of you image are beyond the range that can be displayed in the straight image: if just the brightest or darkest portions need recovery then you probably over or under exposed. There are exceptions of course, where you KNOW that highlights will blow if you expose for the whole scene, so you deliberately expose to keep them & know that you need to recover the shadows in post.
 
Remember that this is what you camera does to your RAW files to create a Jpeg file so if you make the decisions instead you will get what you wanted.

It doesnt sound like you are needing correct faults and one way to look at it is you need to produce a RAW file that you can process to give the shot you want.

A Jpeg is like the prints you get when a film is processed in an automatic machine. A RAW file processed by you is like a handmade print corrected for colour and contrast etc.
 
I shoot in RAW and like that i can edit a photo in any way i want to.

It isn't always about rescuing photos. Topaz Labs and Nik can be fun to play with.

Another thing is that if you look at Flickr Explore and tell me half of those photos were right in the camera then i'll go to the foot of our stairs lol
 
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I think there are 2 possible explanations here:
The world isn't built to be captured perfectly within the range of a digital sensor, so sometimes the range is greater than can be captured in a single image, and sometimes a lot less. On those occasions some processing is necessary to make the most of what you could capture.

Secondly, it could be due to not getting it right in camera, and you're left 'correcting' your exposure.

We don't know exactly which of those is true.

But more importantly, arbitrarily deciding that you don't want to do any processing is IMHO just idiocy. Particularly if you then decide to shoot Raw, where what comes out of the camera is unfinished.
 
RAW photos will always be flat, its unprocessed data unlike jpeg which has already been processed. RAW will almost always need some contrast and sharpening applying imo, and then whatever else you see fit to get the image how you want it. Of course you want to get as much right in camera as possible, but when shooting RAW they'll still need processing. Don't forget, PP was/is applied to film photography too so it's nothing new, and it certainly isn't 'cheating'. I personally process mine to look as authentic as possible, i.e. how I remember the scene looking but some people like to enhance it and make it look a bit different. There's nothing wrong with either, it's what you want that matters.
 
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Great contributions. Have never shot jpeg as all I read was 'go RAW'... learning the hard way it would appear. Exposure has not been an issue as never alter that. I think I'm gonna do a test later to shoot in jpeg + RAW mode to see what in-camera processing looks like in comparison.
 
Great contributions. Have never shot jpeg as all I read was 'go RAW'... learning the hard way it would appear. Exposure has not been an issue as never alter that. I think I'm gonna do a test later to shoot in jpeg + RAW mode to see what in-camera processing looks like in comparison.

To me jpg is the hard way. Later when you set your camera to both, try editing the crap out of both jpg and RAW and see which is more forgiving. Yes we should get it as right as possible in the camera but sometimes there will be the shot that is all wrong in the camera but when rescued ends up one of the best we've ever taken. A jpg will leave it as wrong forever.
 
Great contributions. Have never shot jpeg as all I read was 'go RAW'... learning the hard way it would appear. Exposure has not been an issue as never alter that. I think I'm gonna do a test later to shoot in jpeg + RAW mode to see what in-camera processing looks like in comparison.
Nooooo don't do it :LOL: Joking aside, the reason I say this is that I did this initially and whilst RAW is better overall there was usually something I prefered in the jpeg, such as the way the reds looked for example, and it took me ages to get this part of the RAW to look the same. I decided to just shoot RAW so that I've got nothing to compare to, that way there's no chance of the 'grass being greener' ;)
 
I always shoot RAW + JPEG just in case the shot turns out to be one of those I'd like to be perfectionist about. I always check the jpegs on computer to decide which ones are worth showing. How many need some processing varies hugely with the kind of shoot. On average I guess about 10% are good enough for postcards or web pages with no processing. Most of the rest take on average about 10 seconds of processing, at most a bit of a crop, a bit of shadow lift, a slight adjustment of saturation, a tad of sharpening. A few require going to RAW because of severely wrong exposure, and some because the dynamic range in the original image, and present in the RAW file, was too wide for the in-camera JPEG processor on standard settings. RAW procesing takes much longer.

As I got better the proportion of good keepers from a shooting expedition increased. I also got fussier, and the proportion of shots I was processing from RAW increased. When I realised I was often spending more than four hours processing the results of an hour's shooting I decided things had gone too far. I should spend more time getting it more right in the camera so I could spend less time on the computer. My camera has a wide variety of JPEG processing modes, such as portrait, which is particularly good for skin tones and colour, landscape, sunset, etc.. For each of those modes I can vary saturation, contrast, and sharpening quite a lot. For scenes with awkwardly high dynamic range I can also set a degree of dynamic range optimisation, a kind of local tone mapping from the RAW to the in-camera JPEG which gives results like HDR without needing extra exposures.

Every time I changed a lens I had to change the contrast and sharpening. On zooms I had to adjust these between the two ends of the zoom range and the middle. Whenever I swung round from facing away from the sun to facing towards it I 'd have to adjust contrast and often dynamic range. I managed to improve the proportion of shots needing no extra processing from around 10% to around 50%. But I was now spending so much time fiddling with the camera settings that I was roughly doubling the time to do a static shoot, and at opportunistic shoots I was missing shots. Yet I was still spending far too long on the computer on those few shots which needed processing from RAW.

The reason I went to RAW processing was when the amount of adjustment to the photograph was too large for JPEG processing. I needed more dynamic range, a colour channel had blown,etc.. So I turned the contrast right down, and sharpness and saturation down a bit. All my jpegs now looked soft, flat, and dim. But it only took seconds in the computer to fix that. But I was able to push adjustments much further before needing to go to the RAW file. That cut my RAW processing time roughly in half. The price was that I now needed to process every single one of my photographs, but that processing was extremely simple and quick. I was spending less time adjusting the camera during the shoot, getting more good photographs in less time, and I'd also cut my computer processing in half.

Now we have computers in our digital cameras which can process the RAW files to produce jpegs in lots of different ways according to camera settings its possible to share image processing between camera and computer. If you're a perfectionist and can afford the time you should shoot RAW and process everything in the computer. If time matters to you you should choose the optimum balance between sharing image processing between computer and camera.

It's important that you should understand your camera sell enough to be able to get it right in the camera. Insisting on doing that all the time is a good exercise to force beginners to learn the basic principles, but is otherwise a kind of fundamentalist dogmatism which slows you down and reduces the quality of your photographs.
 
It's important that you should understand your camera sell enough to be able to get it right in the camera. Insisting on doing that all the time is a good exercise to force beginners to learn the basic principles, but is otherwise a kind of fundamentalist dogmatism which slows you down and reduces the quality of your photographs.


IMO it depends on what we are talking about 'getting right' - a raw file is always going to require some work in PP (which is why i shoot jpeg when ultimate quality isnt needed, like for example 4000 shots of trees for the safety records) , however I don't think getting the basics right in camera such as composition instead of cropping , exposure basically right and so forth is fundamentalist dogma - imo its more the difference between being a photographer and a being a bloke with a camera.
 
It's important that you should understand your camera sell enough to be able to get it right in the camera. Insisting on doing that all the time is a good exercise to force beginners to learn the basic principles, but is otherwise a kind of fundamentalist dogmatism which slows you down and reduces the quality of your photographs.
Am I understanding this right in that you're saying getting it right in camera slows you down and reduces the quality of your pictures?

I'm sure this isn't exactly what you meant but for the benefit of those that read it this way I disagree. First of all it can actually speed the process up as it can save you a large amount of time and effort in processing. Secondly getting the shot right in terms of things like exposure can improve detail, reduce noise and ultimately make the image look sharper. Also getting the exposure right allows you to capture the maximum dynamic range that you can (assuming single shot and not bracketing/HDR).
 
RAW images are just that, they're raw. Unprocessed images will always need a tweak or two. Don't feel bad that you do this to all your shots, I don't feel I'm doing anything wrong when I do it.
 
Am I understanding this right in that you're saying getting it right in camera slows you down and reduces the quality of your pictures?

I'm sure this isn't exactly what you meant but for the benefit of those that read it this way I disagree. First of all it can actually speed the process up as it can save you a large amount of time and effort in processing. Secondly getting the shot right in terms of things like exposure can improve detail, reduce noise and ultimately make the image look sharper. Also getting the exposure right allows you to capture the maximum dynamic range that you can (assuming single shot and not bracketing/HDR).

Apologies for not having made my meaning clear. By "getting it right in camera" I meant getting a good JPEG from the camera which needed no post processing. That means getting exposure, composition, contrast, white balance, colour saturation, dynamic range optimisation (tone mapping for mages with too high dynamic range for a normal JPEG, but still within the dynamic range of a RAW file). Those are all settings controlling JPEG processing which I can set in the camera, and if I get them right then as you say there is no post processing needed which saves a lot of time. If they're nearly right then a simple tweak of the ex-camera JPEG is all that's required, which can be done very quickly.

My problem was that by far the biggest amount of post processing time is taken up by those few shots which require to be processed from RAW, either because there was no time to get things right enough in camera for a simple tweak to the JPEG to get it right, or because it was in the nature of the image to need more complex adjustment than JPEG processing allows, such as using curves.

A good example of lack of time was shooting a search and rescue helicopter flypast a few days ago. It was a sunny day so there was high contrast between the shaded side and sunny side of the 'copters. Their orientation and background changed pretty fast. In frame filling shots I wanted technical detail of the lifting rigs etc.. That was sometimes in shade, sometimes in sun, and sometimes in both. Sometimes the background was bright sky, sometimes local scenery which I wished to capture. Sometimes they were moving so fast that there was no time for careful composition, just getting them in the viewfinder was difficult enough. So composition was a case of shooting a bit wide so that composition could be tidied up later by cropping. I could trust autoexposure to get the details I wanted within the dynamic range of the RAW file, but as I switched from uninteresting sky background to very interesting local scenic background there often wasn't time to trim the exposure compensation well enough to catch what I wanted within the dynamic range of normal JPEG settings. With normal in-camera JPEG settings optimised for best ex-camera images more than half the shots would have been too far wrong for JPEG adjustment, so I would have to go into RAW processing to get good images.

In my workflow processing from RAW is always much more time consuming than processing jpegs. What I have discovered is that if I reduced in-camera contrast, saturation, and sharpening, plus adding in some shadow filling tone mapping, even the best of the resulting ex-camera jpegs were too flat and dim and soft. In other words all the shots would require a little simple quick JPEG tweaking. But the bonus was that the jpegs now contained enough dynamic range etc. that none of the images needed to be processed from RAW. Simple quick tweaks to the jpegs were all that was required. The end result was that I greatly reduced the processing time required for those helicopter images, plus I reduced the amount of time needed for in-camera adjustments during the shoot. Even so I did lose a lot of potentially good shots because I failed to get my act together fast enough. But I ended up getting both more shots and a lot less total processing time by changing the in-camera jpeg settings so that all the images required post processing. In other words I saved both post processing time and camera adjustment time by deliberately adjusting my JPEG settings to be wrong for good ex-camera images.

Of course that's an extreme case. When I'm shooting still subjects from a tripod I have plenty of time to get the settings right for the best no-processing-needed images from the camera -- if I can rely on the lighting staying around. It often happens when I'm opportunistically strolling around in the golden hour that the light has gone before I've had time to get all the shots I wanted. Sometimes postponing some of the effort from getting it just right in the camera to putting the final polish on in post processing allows me to get more good shots in the time available.

That's why in my pursuit of getting the best images in the least total sum of shooting and processing time I deliberately avoid trying to get the JPEG images exactly right straight from the camera with no further processing needed. I deliberately make my jpegs too flat, dim, and soft, in order to minimise post processing by reducing the need to process from RAW. When things move fast instead of getting composition just right in camera, I'll just get it nearly right and shoot a bit wide so that a bit of cropping later gets the result I wanted, and gives me more time behind the camera for other shots.

I'm not advocating my particular methods as a general policy. These trade-offs between time behind the camera and in front of the computer depend on what kind of photography you do, what kind of camera you have, and what kind of software you use for post processing. These tradeoffs will probably change next time you upgrade your camera. I'm just pointing out that the world of photography is too various for "get it right in the camera" to be a good rule to follow. It's a good suggestion to consider which like some of the "rules" of composition is sometimes inappropriate. It's mostly inappropriate for me.
 
Should I be aiming more at in-camera technical know-how, to prevent a habit/reliance/ on PP?...
If you're consistenty having to correct the exposure by inconsistent amounts, then you could gain more from getting it right in-camera.

Everything else is personal choice, personal aesthetics and do what you like to get the end result *you* want.
 
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