Oh dear, a bit peeved maybe that very few (if any) people seem to be criticising the police on this thread
Where will you channel al that pent up frustration?
and please use their services
Mark Duggan "Lawfully Killed"
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Oh dear, a bit peeved maybe that very few (if any) people seem to be criticising the police on this thread
Where will you channel al that pent up frustration?
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Oh dear, a bit peeved maybe that very few (if any) people seem to be criticising the police on this thread
Not peeved at all. Quite glad to be wrong on this occasion. Perhaps that early comment helped make it so.
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Thats depends on what the complaint is.
There are a number of different types of complaint investigation.
1. The one you've being involved with is where it is simply done by the local force PSD. Are they comprehensive? No, in my experience, the only aim seems to be to find fault with someone low ranking as it looks good for PSD. I'd disagree with your comment on impartiality. Many PSD officers are there to get the next rank. "Showing a PC as a body" as the expression used to go, meaning convicting a PC was a good way of making your internal CV look good.
2. Is an appeal to the IPCC about a PSD investigation, and no, they can't re investigate, as the matter is closed. Although they have started to look for loopholes in that, as a recent example has shown.
3. Managed, which is where PSD investigate with the IPCC looking over their shoulder.
5. Is an independent investigation, which the amateurs in the IPCC do. Given most of them are ex PSD, so real investigative experience is limited or ex store detectives, you can see why those are so often badly done.
But one thing is common, they are not very good at what they do, their investigations are mostly 'process' driven not investigated by people with ability. All are investigated with the intention to increase their own profile, not to learn sensible lessons, and all are with the intent of looking for someone to blame.
Personally, I'd get rid of both PSD and the IPCC, and replace it with something totally independent, ommitting the word Police from it's title. Employing people like who are both anti and supportive of Police. Sounds odd, but thats the only way you will have an organisation that is balanced. Currently the commissioners are on the whole very anti.
There are a number of different types of complaint investigation.
1. The one you've being involved with is where it is simply done by the local force PSD. Are they comprehensive? No, in my experience, the only aim seems to be to find fault with someone low ranking as it looks good for PSD. I'd disagree with your comment on impartiality. Many PSD officers are there to get the next rank. "Showing a PC as a body" as the expression used to go, meaning convicting a PC was a good way of making your internal CV look good.
2. Is an appeal to the IPCC about a PSD investigation, and no, they can't re investigate, as the matter is closed. Although they have started to look for loopholes in that, as a recent example has shown.
3. Managed, which is where PSD investigate with the IPCC looking over their shoulder.
5. Is an independent investigation, which the amateurs in the IPCC do. Given most of them are ex PSD, so real investigative experience is limited or ex store detectives, you can see why those are so often badly done.
But one thing is common, they are not very good at what they do, their investigations are mostly 'process' driven not investigated by people with ability. All are investigated with the intention to increase their own profile, not to learn sensible lessons, and all are with the intent of looking for someone to blame.
Personally, I'd get rid of both PSD and the IPCC, and replace it with something totally independent, ommitting the word Police from it's title. Employing people like who are both anti and supportive of Police. Sounds odd, but thats the only way you will have an organisation that is balanced. Currently the commissioners are on the whole very anti.
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This. Spot on. Unfortunately society has become too reliant on social media and sometimes believe (generally) the pish that's depicted thereon.
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except we are justified in how we reacted to that video.
my experience of the police makes me think they are all *very naughty boys* until proved otherwise which it shouldn't be.
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Oh dear. That one sneaked past the swear filter. But I do find that kind of opinion ignorant in the highest degree. To class every one an (any) walk of life as being the same. As I said I've been battered by the Police (more than once albeit a long time ago) but don't tar them all with the same brush. I bear no grudges.
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You'll see from many of my previous posts I've voiced support for a range of public sector workers, NHS, Firemen, Teachers and the Armed Forces. I don't work for any of them neither (Though I hacv been contracted to all of them at some point).
If I'm ever through in Glasgow and you require any electrical, plumbing or building work done, I have the contacts!!
If I'm ever through in Glasgow and you require any electrical, plumbing or building work done, I have the contacts!!
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POAH
I could say the same about the public. I could say the same about certain groups of people. Which you no doubt would see as some form of (ex)Police wrong doing. Except you are doing to the Police exactly what they are critisied for doing. A touch of hypocrisy?
Actually the reality is, knowing a fair few Police Officers as I have in my life, that the very vast majority of them are more than straight. Of course a small minority are bent, it happens, but in terms of proportions probably far far less than any other walk of life.
It would be interesting, although impossible unfortunately to get the opposite view of your dealings with Police Officers, I wonder if they would have described you as a paragon of virtue? I suppose it might explain your preference for people to only judge with one sides version of a story.
I could say the same about the public. I could say the same about certain groups of people. Which you no doubt would see as some form of (ex)Police wrong doing. Except you are doing to the Police exactly what they are critisied for doing. A touch of hypocrisy?
Actually the reality is, knowing a fair few Police Officers as I have in my life, that the very vast majority of them are more than straight. Of course a small minority are bent, it happens, but in terms of proportions probably far far less than any other walk of life.
It would be interesting, although impossible unfortunately to get the opposite view of your dealings with Police Officers, I wonder if they would have described you as a paragon of virtue? I suppose it might explain your preference for people to only judge with one sides version of a story.
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I agree with you Bernie but I think you're wasting your breath/finger skin where POAH's concerned...... From previous discussions it's become apparent to me there is the World according to POAH and all other thoughts/opinions are null and void.
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difference is even though I think the police (and others) can be rude word I'm still polite to them
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Yes, but you see we only have your word for that. You are a member of the public, and you see, I've had bad dealings with them, so you must be bad too.
I've seen all the evidence, a video of a member of the public being rude to someone, so it must be true.
I've seen all the evidence, a video of a member of the public being rude to someone, so it must be true.
Hacker
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From the BBC: The Metropolitan Police Commissioner has praised the "very dignified way" Mark Duggan's family has responded to the inquest conclusion.
Really? Was he watching the same family I was? As far as I'm concerned Duggan was a violent criminal who was carrying a firearm and I have no sympathy for him, only for the officers involved in this case. They will be facing the next few years under the microscope from the media, self-serving politicians and weak senior police officers. It about time the 'leaders' of the Met Police grew some balls and backed their officers instead of spouting mealy-mouthed platitudes for the benefit of the press who are the ones whipping this into a frenzy.
Really? Was he watching the same family I was? As far as I'm concerned Duggan was a violent criminal who was carrying a firearm and I have no sympathy for him, only for the officers involved in this case. They will be facing the next few years under the microscope from the media, self-serving politicians and weak senior police officers. It about time the 'leaders' of the Met Police grew some balls and backed their officers instead of spouting mealy-mouthed platitudes for the benefit of the press who are the ones whipping this into a frenzy.
MWHCVT
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Couldn't agree more Colin....
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having grown up round there all i can say is nothing much has changed in 50 years ,it was a s*** hole place to live in the 50's and 60's and still looks the same today .anyone with half a brain grows up and moves out.
the reaction to duggans death would still have happened over another incident it was a kettle waiting to boil give it another few years and another good summer and it will happen again ,its the nature of the area in fact its the nature of a lot of inner cities .
the only thing that kept the lid on the kettle in my day was national service and a proper police presence on the streets ,i can well remember being in that particular area as a young cocky teenager with a group of my equally cocky and rowdy mates ,we were stopped by a beat bobby ,a couple of the rowdier ones got a clip round the ear to shut them up ,and told to "" off your own manor . simple effective policing .
it was not a nice place to live then and i would think much worse now ,my dad used to keep in his bedroom in case of night visitors a large baseball bat sized stick with lead wrapped round the end ,and a knee length sock (about 5 inside one another i think ) also filled with lead .just the nature of the area .
the reaction to duggans death would still have happened over another incident it was a kettle waiting to boil give it another few years and another good summer and it will happen again ,its the nature of the area in fact its the nature of a lot of inner cities .
the only thing that kept the lid on the kettle in my day was national service and a proper police presence on the streets ,i can well remember being in that particular area as a young cocky teenager with a group of my equally cocky and rowdy mates ,we were stopped by a beat bobby ,a couple of the rowdier ones got a clip round the ear to shut them up ,and told to "" off your own manor . simple effective policing .
it was not a nice place to live then and i would think much worse now ,my dad used to keep in his bedroom in case of night visitors a large baseball bat sized stick with lead wrapped round the end ,and a knee length sock (about 5 inside one another i think ) also filled with lead .just the nature of the area .
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Well said that man...
these violent criminals who carry guns and knives deserve everything they get
Hacker
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To hear some of the comments describing Duggan you'd have to forgive me for thinking his halo had slipped slightly. It really is about the time the Met came out fighting and tell it like it really is - that he was a violent gangster who had been arrested for murder and attempted murder amongst other things. They should also reveal why he was under surveillance, why he was being investigated by Operation Trident (for those that do not know Trident has been tasked with looking into black on black gun crime and murder). Trident wouldn't have targeted him if he was an angel; they're far too busy. So it's time the police came out and said who he was, what his activities were, how many black people's shootings he has been implicated in... etc, etc, etc. Why has no-one asked the family why their son was carrying a firearm or what they thought he intended to do with it?
And whilst I am ranting, if you or I damaged the Royal Courts of Justice do you think no action would be taken? How about threatening a jury and abusing a judge? At the very least we would be charged with criminal offences and most certainly banged up straight away for contempt of court. Our judicial system may have its flaws but it it envied the world over and this type of behaviour is very dangerous ground to go down.
As for Diane Abbot being 'baffled' at the jury's decision I hope she is taken to task for this but I am not going to hold my breath.
I think what absolutely annoys me most is the bias in reporting of this verdict. I do not think there has been a single voice explaining the legitimacy of the jury's decision. Consequently the public is given a distorted view and some can almost reasonably be confused and upset. What on earth is wrong with 'balanced' reporting, and where has it gone?
Where are my blood pressure tablets.....
And whilst I am ranting, if you or I damaged the Royal Courts of Justice do you think no action would be taken? How about threatening a jury and abusing a judge? At the very least we would be charged with criminal offences and most certainly banged up straight away for contempt of court. Our judicial system may have its flaws but it it envied the world over and this type of behaviour is very dangerous ground to go down.
As for Diane Abbot being 'baffled' at the jury's decision I hope she is taken to task for this but I am not going to hold my breath.
I think what absolutely annoys me most is the bias in reporting of this verdict. I do not think there has been a single voice explaining the legitimacy of the jury's decision. Consequently the public is given a distorted view and some can almost reasonably be confused and upset. What on earth is wrong with 'balanced' reporting, and where has it gone?
Where are my blood pressure tablets.....
Hacker
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Jeez Colin, go have a relaxing beer mate..................
Sounds like a very good plan, that and a lovely Indian.
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I think you would find if you examined the subject objectively that the incidence of criminality amongst the United Kingdom's police officers is actually far higher than amongst the population as a whole.
RedRobin
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....I can't help thinking that although you are of course entitled to whatever views and opinions you have, and that you are able to be respectful (through being polite), such respect is in reality false and that you are somewhat prejudiced against the Police (and others).
As far as I'm concerned, Mark Duggan lived by the gun and died by the gun and whereas I sympathise for his family's feelings of a son's loss (having experienced such a loss myself) I have absolutely no sympathy for Mark Duggan whatsoever. The family's reactions are purely emotional and subjective and are grossly aided and abetted by political activists and the like.
Forbiddenbiker
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Fact is everything is wrong with balanced reporting.
I mean think of all the regular readers for gawds sake, they grab their paper expecting to read articles about the world they live in, and suddenly all the news is different!!I guess it must be a no brainer.
Meanwhile .....
I'll tell you many of us had a little tiff recently over this stuff and we don't want to do it again, we're all getting sick of pointing, even if it has to be done from time to time ...So please, this is just you having a wind up right?
If its not, Im very interested to know how you came to such a conclusion?
They say, but does, the police force attract those that want to help, but also those that want to bully?
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arclight
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Perhaps you would care to point us all in the direction of the verifiable statistics that show what you aver is actually fact !
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I'm able to be polite never mentioned respect
also I mentioned I thought the police were c*** in a thread above 
Lynton
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hmmm don't know the in's and out's of it, other than what i have read on bbc and other sites, and watched on TV.
Not exactly an angel was he, and from the evidence appears to be about as guilty as a puppy sitting by a pile of poo...
Choose to go out with an illegal gun (and then discard it).... expect the consequences when armed police called in...
As a taxpayer, how much are these investigations / tribunals etc etc costing?
Not exactly an angel was he, and from the evidence appears to be about as guilty as a puppy sitting by a pile of poo...
Choose to go out with an illegal gun (and then discard it).... expect the consequences when armed police called in...
As a taxpayer, how much are these investigations / tribunals etc etc costing?
Forbiddenbiker
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Better we have the choice whatever the cost I guess.
I dont think we should still be talking about it myself, the media are consuming our lives with bitching and gossiping keeping everyone occupied with suspicion and hate.
We should all stop buying papers and watching regular news, see what happens.
I dont think we should still be talking about it myself, the media are consuming our lives with bitching and gossiping keeping everyone occupied with suspicion and hate.
We should all stop buying papers and watching regular news, see what happens.
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Garry Edwards
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It's a complicated case, with a lot of unanswered questions.
But basically he didn't go out with a gun, he went out to buy a gun. The police has intelligence about this and watched him do it, watched him get into a taxi and then stopped him.
The police officers both said that he came out of the taxi with a gun in his hand, this later turned out to be untrue.
There were also questions about evidence possibly being tampered with, and nobody seems to know what actually happened, it's all just allegations and speculation.
The one thing that is certain is that although the jury found that he wasn't holding a gun, the police actions were justified in law because the shooter truly believed that he needed to shoot, at that time.
Some interesting background here, a report of the conviction of the man who supplied him with the gun.
As for how much the inquest cost, it really shouldn't matter. Unexplained deaths need to be explained. The thought that is nagging at me though is that getting Michael Mansfield to represent Duggan's family at the inquest must have cost an absolute fortune - where did that funding come from?
RedRobin
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....I stopped buying papers years ago and just watch a TV News once a day, only if I'm not doing anything else. What brought this on for me was being sat sipping an iced Nescafe outdoors in Kolonaki Square, Athens (equivalent to Sloane Square, London) one summer, quietly reading the air mail copy of The Daily Telegraph no less and reading a report that tanks had rolled into Kolonaki Square. Naturally I slowly lowered my paper to gingerly peer over the top.... Not a single tank to be seen or heard! No military vehicle to be seen of any description. I have never believed a word in any newspaper since.
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totally agree here, I try and avoid papers and the news, the only time I here any news is on the wireless at work if I'm listening, and that's it.
Lynton
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ok, forgive me, haven't read it., but sometime between him leaving his front door and him getting shot he was in unlawful possession of an illegal gun, and from what I read there more than likely an intent to use aforementioned gun...
Carry an illegal firearm in public, expect the consequences...
RedRobin
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Due process has found that Mark Duggan was lawfully killed and it is reasonable beyond doubt that his possession of an illegal firearm in public demonstrates that he was prepared to use it. So surely there was intent.
It's not as if he was in possession of an illegal shotgun, was out doing a bit of poaching in the countryside and accidentally shot someone in the undergrowth he thought was an animal. Nor was it as if an armed Police unit was roaming the countryside at the same time and shot him on sight!
Every (99%) parent remembers the innocent baby their offspring once was and undyingly loves their children no matter what laws they break and what they do, but that's a subjective viewpoint and is divorced from any harsh reality. Even very close friends sometimes remain loyal.
I was once offered Police protection from the family of a paedophile who, after a whole week of court hearing and filmed evidence (he filmed his own gross acts!) after which a jury returned a Guilty verdict within one hour, because they and the P****'s mother in particular were in total denial and were threatening me with violence. The Duggan family are understandably in denial and there are those who exploit that to further their own agendas.
It's not as if he was in possession of an illegal shotgun, was out doing a bit of poaching in the countryside and accidentally shot someone in the undergrowth he thought was an animal. Nor was it as if an armed Police unit was roaming the countryside at the same time and shot him on sight!
Every (99%) parent remembers the innocent baby their offspring once was and undyingly loves their children no matter what laws they break and what they do, but that's a subjective viewpoint and is divorced from any harsh reality. Even very close friends sometimes remain loyal.
I was once offered Police protection from the family of a paedophile who, after a whole week of court hearing and filmed evidence (he filmed his own gross acts!) after which a jury returned a Guilty verdict within one hour, because they and the P****'s mother in particular were in total denial and were threatening me with violence. The Duggan family are understandably in denial and there are those who exploit that to further their own agendas.
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really ????
odd jim
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Ignorant and damn right insulting to the 99.9 % of decent hard working officers who put their safety on the line for ungrateful people like you.
I believe that 95% of the work taken on by Took's Chambers (which Micheal Mansfield QC is based at - head of?) is publicly funded - legal aid.
Years ago, when my wife and I were out of work briefly, we tried to get legal aid to fight a small legal case, but were refused saying that we were not eligible.
Nice to know that criminals and their families have no problem getting access to the finest legal representation in the country - whilst we pay for it.
Man buy a gun,its in a shoe box in a taxi on the floor,he get stopped by the police,the gun end up from the shoe box to 25yd away in an field.
So an some point i think Mark Duggan must have taken the gun from the box,maybe to get rid of it,so at some point in throwing the gun he must of lifted to a level where it was pointing at a level, as those he could been seen as going to use it.
I think the jury got it right.
So an some point i think Mark Duggan must have taken the gun from the box,maybe to get rid of it,so at some point in throwing the gun he must of lifted to a level where it was pointing at a level, as those he could been seen as going to use it.
I think the jury got it right.
Forbiddenbiker
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I'm a mechanic Jim, I know just how you feel ...we're all scum rip off merchants with no more skill than the average ikea assembler.
But can you not see Poah is expressing from experience how he sees it, it's real from his experience. ...How do you think mechanics got a bad name, or anyone?
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Garry Edwards
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You're a bit out of date...
Tooks Chambers have in fact closed down, a victim of the legal aid cuts.
MM now has his own chambers, Mansfield Chambers, and has taken his clerk with him. Trust me, I know.
I don't believe that legal aid is available for this kind of case, and if I'm right on this it comes back to the same question - who funded this very expensive representation?
OP
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