Mechanical 35mm Compact

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Hi all,
I've been through camera after camera in search of one that fits what I want but I can't seem to find the right one. I'm looking for a mechanical compact camera, with a wide lens (wider than 35mm at least) that's reasonably fast, manual exposure, and uses scale focus. Something in between a Fuji Natura 1.9 and a Rollei 35. I'm thinking it might just come down to finding the right lens for my Leica and leaving it at that so I suppose that's the second part of my post; what wide lenses would people recommend for Leica that would essentially make it into an overgrown compact? Something similar to the Voigtlander 25mm Skopar but more pancake-esque possibly...
 
Maybe it could be possible to modify a Rollei to replace the lens with a wider one, I'll have to have a look at the MS lenses too as I'd forgotten about those!
 
This would probably be better in the Film & Conventional section. I'm not a big user of manual compact 35mm cameras so couldn't think of anything other than the Rollei.
 
If you find one, I'd be interested too. I use a Rollei 35 at the moment. Hoping to track down an affordable Sonnar/Tessar model...
 
This would probably be better in the Film & Conventional section. I'm not a big user of manual compact 35mm cameras so couldn't think of anything other than the Rollei.

Ah sorry I'm new to all this, is there any way to move it?

If you find one, I'd be interested too. I use a Rollei 35 at the moment. Hoping to track down an affordable Sonnar/Tessar model...

I'll be sure to post about it if I can find/make anything!
 
x pan ?
 
Although it is one of my dream cameras and I would love to own one it isn't compact or mechanical nor does it have an easily available wide lens and I would prefer to get a nice wide lens for my Leica, which is comparably sized, than splash out on an X-Pan but thanks for the suggestion!
 
Ah sorry I'm new to all this, is there any way to move it?

for future reference, simply Report the first post in the thread you want moving, and ask nicely...

only staff can move threads.

as it happened, someone else reported it for you, and had it moved ;)
 
for future reference, simply Report the first post in the thread you want moving, and ask nicely...

only staff can move threads.

as it happened, someone else reported it for you, and had it moved ;)

Oh! Thankyou!
 
It's already pretty tiny, isn't it? Not sure there's anything smaller that fits your criteria.
There's a couple of MS optical lenses that are much smaller that someone reminded me of and the Russar 20/5.6 is lower profile but a tad wider which is what I would like. I think that I'm ever so slightly leaning away from the Skopar because of the way it protrudes from the camera in a conical shape and I'm thinking that it might be a problem for sliding it in and out of larger pockets.
 
Hi all,
I've been through camera after camera in search of one that fits what I want but I can't seem to find the right one. I'm looking for a mechanical compact camera, with a wide lens (wider than 35mm at least) that's reasonably fast, manual exposure, and uses scale focus. Something in between a Fuji Natura 1.9 and a Rollei 35.

XA4, but at f/3.5, it ain't that fast

Still, even though Leica isn't in my field of interest, I know it ain't exactly a compact....:)
 
There's a couple of MS optical lenses that are much smaller that someone reminded me of and the Russar 20/5.6 is lower profile but a tad wider which is what I would like. I think that I'm ever so slightly leaning away from the Skopar because of the way it protrudes from the camera in a conical shape and I'm thinking that it might be a problem for sliding it in and out of larger pockets.
Sorry, missed the MS lenses - they do look interesting.
 
XA4, but at f/3.5, it ain't that fast

Still, even though Leica isn't in my field of interest, I know it ain't exactly a compact....:)

The XA4 is unfortunately not manual or mechanical either but still a nice camera! Yeah the Leica's are the smallest cameras going but it's small enough seeing as there don't seem to be any other options for a reasonable enough price.

Sorry, missed the MS lenses - they do look interesting.
Yeah I've had my eye on a few of them for a while.
 
Which Leica? The old screwmount cameras are more pocketable than the Ms, especially with a collapsible lens (though I don't think there's one wide enough for you).
 
The XA4 is unfortunately not manual or mechanical either but still a nice camera!
neither is the fuji natura
Yeah the Leica's are the smallest cameras going but it's small enough seeing as there don't seem to be any other options for a reasonable enough price.
what options have you explored, expensive or otherwise because I don't think I've quite understood exactly what you're looking for...:)
 
Which Leica? The old screwmount cameras are more pocketable than the Ms, especially with a collapsible lens (though I don't think there's one wide enough for you).
I have an M6 but, ideally, for this setup I would eyeing up a III series (maybe a one of the "K" type ones if I win the lottery). I think the Russars or the GR lenses Ricoh made or some of the MS Optical 'body cap' style pancakes would work well provided the latter are available in m39.

neither is the fuji natura

what options have you explored, expensive or otherwise because I don't think I've quite understood exactly what you're looking for...:)
I know but it has a 24/1.9 which would be the perfect lens for this use which is why I mentioned my ideal camera as being something in between the Rollei and the Fuji i.e. mechanical like the Rollei but with a wide/fast lens like the Fuji. If the Fuji were mechanical I would have bought one and wouldn't have to ask about what was available I suppose!

I'm essentially looking for a Rollei 35 with the lens from a Fuji Natura; a mechanical compact camera with a wide/fast lens. I've explored Kowa SW's which are as close as I can see myself getting to my ideal camera but they're quite rare and very expensive (nearly £1000 in most cases I've seen on eBay) so they're not looking likely. Another option is the Leica that seems to be almost unanimously decided as the ideal camera for my needs which I agree with. Again the problem is price because, although they aren't as expensive as the Kowa, they can still be £200 for a body at least and then £350-400 for the lens/finder I want so £500-650 altogether which is pretty good but still a bit out of reach just right now. Another option is modifying a Rollei 35 or Petri Color 35 which would be somewhat costly and quite difficult.

I could fold and just get a battery powered compact like the Fuji or the Ricoh GR1 or the Minolta TC-1 or the Nikon 28Ti or anything else similar but they're still expensive and I want something a bit more rugged and reliable that I could take into a vast number of situations and depend on the camera to keep working. I know the Leicas, being as old as they are, aren't going to be super reliable but I would prefer to have a mechanical camera of some sort than a battery powered one. Maybe if someone could make a Leica with the shutter from an FM3a...
 
I have an M6 but, ideally, for this setup I would eyeing up a III series (maybe a one of the "K" type ones if I win the lottery). I think the Russars or the GR lenses Ricoh made or some of the MS Optical 'body cap' style pancakes would work well provided the latter are available in m39.

The Barnacks all have squinty finders (except the ones that don't have finders at all). Unless you're planning to wing it, you'll need an external finder in the cold shoe as well. I sometimes use a IIIf with a CV 15mm lens, with the add-on finder, and it's fine, but I couldn't say it's compact in the more conventional sense. In the main, the body is a bit wider, and the add-on finder could be seen as a carbuncle that limits its pocketability. The CV 15mm is scale focus only, so don't need to use the rangefinder. I find I use the IIIf either with that lens or a 50mm - 35mm and 90mm don't get near it even though I have finders, because switching between the RF window and the add-on finder is too much pf a pain.

If you don't have vast amounts of money to blow on a K, get a IIIf red dial. They have the same bearings and bits in the shutter mechanism as the wartime Kalt Barnacks. The IIIf black dial doesn't (or doesn't have all of the bits - at least some of it is bushes rather than bearings).

As for lens, I think I'd seek out an LTM of some sort (probably a CV Skopar or the like) and an M adapter, and try that on the M6 first. The Skopars really don't stick out much (I have the LTM 35mm, and I believe the 25mm is the same size). Then you can consider getting a Barnack if you feel the combo with the M6 is too big.
 
Some comparison photos showing a Rollei 35, Leica IIIf with CV 15mm & finder, and a Leica M2 with CV LTM 35mm Skopar (and an M Grip)...

General view

Lecais + Rollei 35 - General s.jpg


Front view showing widths...

Lecais + Rollei 35 - Fronts Stacked s.jpg

The M2 is a little wider than the IIIf, while the Rollei is significantly smaller.



Fronts, side by side to show heights...

Lecais + Rollei 35 - Fronts Row s.jpg

The Rollei is only a little shorter than the IIIf itself, but the latter becomes the tallest with the add-on finder. The M2 is noticeably taller, more so with the addition of the M Grip.

Tops, showing body thickness and lens protrusion...

Lecais + Rollei 35 - Tops s.jpg

The IIIf has the slimmest body, with the Rollei and M2 almost the same. Lens protrusion is least with the Rollei by a small amount, and virtually the same for the Leicas, although this will obviously vary depending on choice of lens. The 15mm has hood-type features built into the lens barrel, while the 35mm Skopar has a shallow screw-on hood.

Weights as shown...
Leica M2: 780g
Leica IIIf: 600g
Rollei 35: 350g

In terms of handling and usability, the M2 eclipses the other two by a long way, even though it's noticeably heavier and bulkier. The main things that make it so usable are the M Grip and the right hand lever film advance. It also has the best finder (big and clear with a bright RF patch), although the Rollei is a close second. Both have bright lines for framing, with the M2 going out to 35mm. The IIIf's built-in finder is a bit of a pain - small with a 50mm-ish field of view, no frame lines, and with a separate RF window (which has a decent patch, but not as good as the M2). The add-on finder is big, clear and bright, but has no frame lines.

The IIIf and Rollei are both quirky in terms of handling. The IIIf has knob film advance and a lifty-uppy shutter speed dial for speeds 1/25th and faster, and the little dial on the front for slower speeds. The Rollei has the shutter and aperture settings on the dials on the front, which are quite usable, but the right hand dial gets in the way of the fingers somewhat when taking photos. It doesn't move off the setting (it locks), but there is very little to get a grip of because the camera is so small. The left-hand film advance lever is okay other than needing to take the camera away from the eye every time you advance the film.

For film loading, the M2 is, perhaps surprisingly, the easiest, at least when standing up. Although it's a bottom loader, the fact that the camera hangs on a neck strap makes it all pretty straightforward. The Rollei is more conventional, but you need to be sitting down, preferably at a table - a bit fiddly when standing up because you have to hold the camera in one hand. The IIIf is also a bottom loader, but without the back door on the M, and the film leader needs to be cut to make the narrow bit longer. I don't actually find this too much of a hassle when standing up - I always carry a Swiss army knife and trim the leader using the scissors by eye (the length isn't particularly critical). Again, loading the IIIf while standing is helped by the camera hanging from the neck strap - both the Leicas can be flipped over so the bottom is uppermost with the lens against the chest, so they just sit there and both hands can be used to do the loading.

I've used all three for fast and loose street photography (ie, in very busy situations with lots of people around and lots happening), which is probably a good test of usability when you don't have time to faff about. In spite of its greater bulk and weight, the M2 is easily the best - the grip and right-hand advance lever mean it can be readily used one-handed if desired when zone focussing. The 35mm Skopar has a focus lever and that helps a lot if using the RF for focussing (very quick in conjunction with the excellent RF patch). The bayonet mount is much quicker for changing lenses. The IIIf is fine if used with a wide lens and add-on finder and zone focussing, but too slow with the more typical 50mm and using the RF to focus. Exposure adjustments can be fiddly when in a hurry, and the shutter speed dial is partially obscured by the finder (some add-on finders might be smaller than the 15mm one, but not by much). The Rollei 35 is probably a bit easier to use than the IIIf, or perhaps fiddly in its own way - exposure adjustments are easier, but the left-hand film advance means you're always moving the camera away from the eye between shots.

Overall, for serious picture taking, the M2 is the first choice, but it isn't a pocket camera (or even a compact in my view). It has the best ergonomics by far, and is fast and intuitive to use. At the other end of the scale, the Rollei 35 wins easily for carry everywhere pocketability, but falls down a bit on ergonomics and doesn't have a wide lens. There are other compacts that are almost as small (eg, Olympus 35RC) and have better handling, but still tend to the more moderate end of wide angle. The IIIf is reasonably compact for a jacket pocket with the collapsible Elmar, but not with a conventional lens and add-on finder. The controls are a bit weird, being a gradual development of the original Barnack Leicas where bits have been added on rather than the overall design being revised. It is good fun, but you either need to set it up for a particular use (like 15mm zone focussing and don't fiddle too much with exposure settings), or not be in a hurry.

I can't think of anything in the size class of the Rollei that has a wide lens. If your M6 has one of the wider finders, it will have 28mm frame lines, and the finder itself might get to 25mm or so. The M2 has 35mm lines and might get to 28mm at the frame extents (albeit without parallax compensation), but it's hard to see the frame edges all at once (eye gets very close).
 
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I did wonder about the CL, but it seems that the frame only gets to about a 35mm field of view (40mm frame lines). The Minolta CLE goes wider (28mm frame lines), but has an electronic shutter. They're also not that small, as can be seen in the photos at the bottom of this page...

https://www.cameraquest.com/leicacl.htm

It looks about as tall and thick as the M4, and maybe 18-20mm less wide. Given what they seem to sell for (unless you get lucky, around £300 minimum for a body, for either the CL or CLE), it's maybe a rather expensive way to get a marginal reduction in size, especially if it still involves a compromise like having to use an add-on finder (or doing without), or an electronic shutter.
 
Some comments with regard to my comparison post...

It seemed to turn into something that included the Rollei 35 as an option, but wasn't intended to be, since that camera doesn't fit the OP's criteria. If anything, I think my point was that, apart from the width, it actually isn't all that small compared to the others - or that the Barnack and M aren't all that much bigger. At the same time, the reduction in width does mean that there's a lot less camera to get a hold of. I'd call the Rollei a sub-compact. Proper compacts (like the 35RC) aren't much bigger and are easier to handle.

With regard to the thought on changing the Rollei 35 lens to something wider, I'd say that this isn't a feasible option. The Rollei in particular has gubbins inside to link between the shutter and aperture dials and the lens (leaf shutter), which is further complicated by the lens being collapsible. A replacement lens could have the aperture ring on the lens, which doesn't sound too bad, but the shutter would still be very tricky - it needs to be adjusted by some means as well as linked to the cocking mechanism in the camera body. Even if it can all be worked out, any such conversion is going to involve some pretty serious precision engineering (both design and fabrication) and you'd still have the issue of the finder's FoV being too narrow.

If anything, the only real advantage the Rollei has is that it easily fits into a jacket pocket, and the main thing that makes this feasible is the collapsible lens. The 35RC isn't much bigger, and that's borderline for a jacket pocket - it weighs a bit more, but the main thing that makes it more of a hassle is the fact that the lens doesn't retract. The 35RC will fit okay in some jacket pockets, but can be too big for others. (I have both, and have tried pocketing both, and the Rollei wins - the 35RC is just a bit too much of a lump, at least for my pockets.) On the other hand, the 35RC is fine for sticking in the top pocket of my daysack, so any conventional compact of this sort of size has some potential if easy pocketability isn't a requirement. To place that in context, I wouldn't put my M2 in the daysack pocket because it has no case (so not well protected - and too expensive to risk getting damaged), and because it's getting a bit big to squeeze in there with the other junk. I think the main issues with the archetypal Japanese compacts is that they tend to be around 40mm focal length, and often have either electronic shutters if manual, or only offer some sort of auto exposure mode.

There is a possible option in a Barnack and a 28mm Hektor, which is a very compact lens (almost as small as a retracted 50mm Elmar), but the Hektor is f/6.3 max aperture and not exactly cheap at £400 and up. I don't know what they're like optically. They have the fiddly Elmar-style aperture adjustment tab. This would still entail an add-on finder of some sort. Overall, that starts to become another rather expensive option that's not without compromises - at the very thick end of a grand.

On the subject of Barnacks with ball bearing shutter bits, some further reading suggests that the IIIf black dial also has the ball bearing bits, and not the partial bearing/bush that I thought it had. However, the red dial does seem to have some lighter components in the shutter, which may well help with shutter timing in cold conditions. In practical terms, I doubt this would matter much. It might be worth noting that the black dial has a slower flash sync speed (1/30th compared to 1/50th). So, while I still think the IIIf red dial is the pinnacle of the Barnack form factor, I suspect either are fine if you want an affordable camera with a K spec shutter.

I think, for the OP, it comes down to what you mean by 'compact', which might mean how you want to carry the camera (jacket pocket, daysack or similar, or small gadget bag), or what sort of size you want in the hand. It seems to me that anything smaller than a full fat M with a suitably wide built-in finder has compromises, like handling, bulk in the sense of bits sticking out, finder FoV, etc, and some of them are pretty expensive. Some stuff can go quite small, but may entail having to carry accessories (eg, Barnack with add-on finder carried separately). I still lean towards my original thought of looking for something like a 25mm Skopar and using it on the M6. If the Barnack idea isn't considered feasible, the M version of the Skopar looks like it might be better than the LTM - it's rangefinder coupled and presumably doesn't have the focus click stops that the LTM has (something that put me off when I looked at them a few years ago).
 
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