Medium format... AGAIN. Sorry guys.

MindofMel

MindofMel

Suspended / Banned
Messages
1,586
Name
Mel
Edit My Images
Yes
After months with a great Bronica ETRS system, I loved the quality but here where my gripes:

- accurate metering - too much of a palaver having to use a lightmeter etc
- touch too big for my liking - although very small
- WLF back to front view
- accurate focusing in anything but 12pm bright sunlight was a feat of amazing skill

Is there a 6x6 system - that I can avoid these issues in? Mamiya? Blad?

i.e - WLF the normal way round as you look down (small issue), brighter WLF/ easier to focus system, simpler metering process
 
Last edited:
You can replace the WLF with a prism that also include a light meter for TTL metering. You may prefer this, it will correct the image laterally but will add to the weight and bulk. The same option applies to Mamiya and Hasselblad

I enjoyed the laterally inverted image of the WLF, I found it concentrated my mind on the composition more.
 
OneTen said:
You can replace the WLF with a prism that also include a light meter for TTL metering. You may prefer this, it will correct the image laterally but will add to the weight and bulk. The same option applies to Mamiya and Hasselblad

I enjoyed the laterally inverted image of the WLF, I found it concentrated my mind on the composition more.
Click to expand...

Hi Richard,

yea I had an AE prism with the Bronica - but I didn't use it as it made it too much like an SLR and as you said increased the weight and bulk. Looks like I.m stuffed. Admittedly, I just couldn't get used to the inversion - it's fine for posed shots/shoots but every now and then I would miss a shot as you moved the camera the wrong way and then POW - shot gone.

I think I could force myself into getting second nature with a WLF. My annoyance then is having to use an external meter

Any thoughts about accurate focusing? I shoot 35mm manual focus 85% of the time so have a good eye but with the Bronica - I struggled unless I was in great light - especially when trying to focus quickly.
 
MindofMel said:
Is there a 6x6 system - that I can avoid these issues in? Mamiya? Blad?

i.e - WLF the normal way round as you look down (small issue), brighter WLF/ easier to focus system, simpler metering process
Click to expand...

Not unless you get a prism finder

I found the ETRS focusing to be a pain too, hence why it's up at Ffordes now

I dont think you'll find many cameras with metered WLF's either, the RB67 has a metered chimney finder which is a vertical finder but i don't think you can use it from waist height (IIRC Excalibur2 has one and may be able to shed some light on it)

Only systems i can think of that are different are the Pentax 67 with a WLF (no idea if it's metered but the focusing should be easier)
 
Yeah Rob, not quite sure why I couldn't get to grips with accurate focussing on the Bronica - it just didn't work at a high enough hit rate - although when it did... boom! Metered WLF was more a pipe dream - I think lol!

Need a 6x6/7 system to try now - I'm thinking hasselblad 500 series or maybe a mamiya rb67

Anybody have any thoughts regarding focussing, ease of use and metering on those?
 
Last edited:
MindofMel said:
Yeah Rob, not quite sure why I couldn't get to grips with accurate focussing on the Bronica - it just didn't work at a high enough hit rate - although when it did... boom! Metered WLF was more a pipe dream - I think lol!

Need a 6x6/7 system to try now - I'm thinking hasselblad 500 series or maybe a mamiya rb67

Anybody have any thoughts regarding focussing, ease of use and metering on those?
Click to expand...

Blads focus in much the same was as the ETRS but they come with a split prism in the ground glass to make focusing easier (not sure if all ETRS' do) Might be worth going to a shop and seeing if they have any you can try out
 
I've only run 2 films through my Mamamiya and they won't be back until tomorrow but I found the screen extremely easy to focus as I have 6 degree split prism one which (using the magnifier) allows really close fine tuning. Well at least I hope it did...lol

Andy
 
MindofMel said:
I'm thinking hasselblad 500 series or maybe a mamiya rb67

Anybody have any thoughts regarding focussing, ease of use and metering on those?
Click to expand...

RB's aren't really made for hand held use and as such focusing quickly hand held is a bit difficult, it's hard enough for me with a bloomin tripod. Another issue is that they don't have very fast lenses so getting a decent shutter speed is going to be hard with slow film

They have no metering either, so you'll still need an external meter. The newer RZ's might have some metering in though
 
robhooley167 said:
Not unless you get a prism finder

I found the ETRS focusing to be a pain too, hence why it's up at Ffordes now

I dont think you'll find many cameras with metered WLF's either, the RB67 has a metered chimney finder which is a vertical finder but i don't think you can use it from waist height (IIRC Excalibur2 has one and may be able to shed some light on it)

Only systems i can think of that are different are the Pentax 67 with a WLF (no idea if it's metered but the focusing should be easier)
Click to expand...


You wouldn't be happy with RB67 with prism, but I don't mind this and Etrs with prism and speed grip either.........unless you are going to use a folding camera or fixed lens one, you'll have to expect medium format that has the ability to use different lenses is always more inconvenient than 35mm ;)
For me my problem is not the size/weight of my equipment (no problem in a backpack) but for somewhere near to where I live and cheap to develope colour film :shrug:

DSC00937.jpg


img103-1000px.jpg


img504.jpg
 
MindofMel said:
That RB67 is huge! Could be a transformer at that size. Not for me.

I played with a blad 500CM in apertureuk - might go back to have a mess around with these issues in mind.
Click to expand...


Dunno what problem you are finding with the Etrs, as I've taken 100's of shots with it and for what I used it for....... never had any reason to complain.
For me 6X6cm was a dumb idea as I had to crop to fit the paper I was printing on (and colour paper wasn't cheap to waste), so if you are going to crop you might as well get 3 extra (fifteen) shots by using 6X4.5cm...so slung in a tele rolleiflex and Rollei SL66 (erm good investments if I'd kept them :crying: ) for a versatle RB67 and Etrs.
 
MindofMel said:
That RB67 is huge! Could be a transformer at that size. Not for me.
Click to expand...

Yep the RB is like the RZ quite a large monster to carry around and I have to agree with Rob it's far from a handheld camera imo although grips are available.

Seems quite a few people can't get on with the ETRS for a whole host of reasons ....many simply don't like the 6 x 4.5 format....personally I prefer it over the almost square format of the RZ...comes down to what you're shooting at the time.

Like Brian, I've had no reason to find fault with the ETRS using a metered prism finder.

I do think perhaps that because I use many old cameras with foggy viewers and ground glass screens, when I come to use something more "modern" like the ETRS then what I can see in the viewer is, for me, very clear and easy to use so I'm probably not the best person to offer advice.

If you can't get on with it though then it only makes sense to find something more suitable for your needs....
 
How about going a different direction with a MF range finder? Mamiya and fuji have some great ones and the fuji 645 ones are quite dinky.
 
I have a Mamiya RZ67, yea its not a light camera but its totally manageable, last trip to Italy I spent a week shooting hand held everyday, gets a bit heavy but hey so does a D700 + 24-70 f/2.8, Regarding lenses and shutter speed mentioned above, I only have a 90mm f/3.5 and that was fast enough for me, I have shot 800,400 and 100 film and never really had an issue with shutter speeds.
 
MindofMel said:
Been thinking about a c330.. cheaper than blad aswell! Not too big either, so good for handholding
Click to expand...

It uses the same focussing mechanism of an RB67 so it can be a little fiddly at first.
 
Sounds to me like a MF rangefinder is what you need. Small and light enough to carry around, can come with inbuilt metering, no inversion of the viewfinder, you can get multiple lenses for some, and the optical quality lb for lb will be higher due to the uncompromised nature of RF lens design

Whats the downside I hear you say? For a interchangable lens model, it's serious £££(£)s, anthing affordable is likely fied focal length

They are nice though (y)
 
Metering an MF?

Hasselblad did a 'metering knob' that you could attach to the winder on their 500 series, see this link towards the bottom http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/HasselbladFinders.html

Have a look at the Fuji 645 range finders I think they have meters and the Fuji lens are nice here is a started link http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0105/cameracorner.htm

But if you want to go 6x7 with everything built in then it really is the Pentax 67 is the one to go for, like using a 35mm SLR but on serious steroids :LOL: I have one and they are great and very quick to use, but big and heavy.

@Andy will you stop putting pictures of that Mam 330 up :bat: it is seriously tempting and I mustn't get another MF Camera :LOL:
 
Last edited:
Go on, you know you want one. What difference will one more camera make?:naughty:
 
I looked into the fuji rangefinders - I could not find any real examples of a stunning/sharp photo on flickr and google. They were all a bit flat and lacked that Medium format-'ness'. Looked like a soft lens on a 35mm camera. Especially the 645Zi - which many attribute to its AF and the fact its a zoom lens. Might look into some of the older manual focus versions.

Also, I'm buying a MF for portraits and 6x6 really is the way I am feeling to go.

Hasselblad + metered finder = starts teetering over the upper limits of my budget of £650. Currently the mamiya c330 even though im not a fan of the way TLR's look lol (cosmetics are important! :LOL:) - provide the quality and well within budget from what research ive done.

Just researching the Pentacon Six? and Kiev 60?
 
Last edited:
Metered WLF ?

Bronica ECTL...:D....it has a focussing screen with shutter speed lights.
I have found them tough to see in bright sunlight though.


RF's are not really portrait machines, they don't focus close enough, I struggle to fill a frame with head and shoulders with a Mam 6, though you could get one for £650 with a standard lens...maybe.
If you wanted to shoot Bailey-esque close ups, y'know... face with hair and chin chops, you'd have to crop 6x6 down, by the time you've done that you might as well have shot 35mm.


There is a Mamiya 6 (front) and Bronica ECTL (top right on tripod) in this pic I posted in the update your film gear thread.

33oo64i.jpg
 
Last edited:
joxby said:
If you wanted to shoot Bailey-esque close ups, y'know... face with hair and chin chops, you'd have to crop 6x6 down, by the time you've done that you might as well have shot 35mm.
Click to expand...

If you really wanted to do that, you should shoot with a Rolleiflex and a few Rolleinars - which I'm guessing was the equipment used.
 
freecom2 said:
If you really wanted to do that, you should shoot with a Rolleiflex and a few Rolleinars - which I'm guessing was the equipment used.
Click to expand...


Absolutely

2j1srxi.jpg




SLR's and leaf shutter boxes will do most things.
My point was, RF's are not so flexible.
 
joxby said:
Metered WLF ?

Bronica ECTL...:D....it has a focussing screen with shutter speed lights.
I have found them tough to see in bright sunlight though.

33oo64i.jpg
Click to expand...

Hi John,

Do you own and use the ECTL? Just reading about it after your post. 6x6 - metered WLF. seems to fit the bill... also hearing you can put nikon lenses on it? your experience with manual focussing with it?

edit:
NM - afer 2 days of searching for cheaper alternatives / round about ways of getting I'm going to stick with the issues and work through them and trump up for the blad.

Thanks all!
 
Last edited:
Yes I shoot an ECTL, all my lenses are Nikkors but they are not "F" mount, they are manufactured by Nikon for Bronica.
Focussing is much the same as ETRs, Bladd or any other similar MF studio cam, and it seems to me this is why you are struggling a bit.
An RF is the closest you are going to get to the simplicity of 35mm on Medium Format, and that doesn't include AF.
One way or another you will have some amount of additional faff, be it metering, manual focus, wlf issues, frame limitations or just the cumbersome nature of MF equipment.
Bladd is a good choice if only for the Zeiss glass that comes with it, but it won't solve any of the above inconveniences, they are something you learn to live with.
RF's supply their own very different inconveniences, and they are something you learn to live with too.
Nothing has been manufactured for MF to rival the do it all for you, just press the button, convenience of 35mm..:)
 
joxby said:
Yes I shoot an ECTL, all my lenses are Nikkors but they are not "F" mount, they are manufactured by Nikon for Bronica.
Focussing is much the same as ETRs, Bladd or any other similar MF studio cam, and it seems to me this is why you are struggling a bit.
An RF is the closest you are going to get to the simplicity of 35mm on Medium Format, and that doesn't include AF.
One way or another you will have some amount of additional faff, be it metering, manual focus, wlf issues, frame limitations or just the cumbersome nature of MF equipment.
Bladd is a good choice if only for the Zeiss glass that comes with it, but it won't solve any of the above inconveniences, they are something you learn to live with.
RF's supply their own very different inconveniences, and they are something you learn to live with too.
Nothing has been manufactured for MF to rival the do it all for you, just press the button, convenience of 35mm..:)
Click to expand...

After hours of google and flickr searching your're 100% right. There is no shortcut model/system in MF. I am in love with MF and 6x6 - it's just decding on a system.

I'm tempted to invest and use my £700 to get a hasselbal 500cm and 80mm 2.8 and begin building a full blad outfit. It's just hard to justify in my head when I could get a bronica sq-a system for £500 with 3 lenses or a mamiya c330 and lenses.

I'm not sure if I am not turning up stunning portrait photography when searching for bronica stuff because 1) even though bronica/mamiya systems are capable pro's automatically buy hasselblad equipment or 2) because the other systems aren't as good at it. chicken vs egg etc.
 
MindofMel said:
Also,

most of these systems have a top speed of 1/500th - what ISO film am i needing to use to get f2.8 shots in daytime shoots. Is 400 speed film too fast?
Click to expand...

Summer brightness in the UK near a city is roughly f8 @ 1/250 for 200asa. In Ibiza I was using f8 or f11 @ 1/250 for 100 asa

So at f2.8 at 1/500 is roughly 50 asa film (if my calculations are correct).
 
Hey Mel don't discount the Bronica or Mamiya's if you are working on a tight budget.

I have been using a Bronica for a long while now and for the money it is a fab bit of kit, however the 150mm (the usual protrait lens) will not give you a tight head/shoulder protrait that you may be after. Same is also true of the Hasselblad Sonnar 150 which alot use.

For Bronica the 105mm, rare, the 180mm again rare :D would work better or even a 150mm + a S36? extension tube would work.

For the Mamiya either 67 or TLR the 180mm lens is the one to go for, but with the TLR you may get parrallex errors because you can get very close. Esaily solved by using one of those things Andy has under his in the picture above.

Also don't forget that, I may be wrong in this, that because you are on a larger film something like f4 on a 150mm would be near enough the same, out of focus at the back, as say a 135mm f2.8 on 35mm film. :)
 
MindofMel said:
1) even though bronica/mamiya systems are capable pro's automatically buy hasselblad equipment or 2) because the other systems aren't as good at it. chicken vs egg etc.
Click to expand...


They don't though, Bronica & Mamiya are both pro quality manufacturers, it would never occur to Jo pub to spend a small fortune on pro medium format gear when they could spend 3p on a 35mm compact.
B & M's target market is the professional market, there is no consumer grade equipment like there is in 35mm format.
You don't really buy Bladd for the camera, you buy it for Zeiss glass, that is the difference between Bladd, Bronica, Mamiya, Rollei, etc, there's Zeiss and then there's everything else, but you pay for it.
Whether Zeiss is worth the extra or not, is debatable because "everything else" is pretty damn good.
 
Not sure what sort of price you're looking at Mel but Ffordes have C330s with 80mm blue dot lens for £169 (with a little damage to the filter ring) or £249 with a nicer lens.

http://www.ffordes.co.uk/search/mamiya twin

Andy
 
IMO that's a little on the expensive side for a clean SQ-Ai, although I have to say Bronica kit doesn't appear at dealers as much as you'd expect.

Medium format is such a tempting hobby!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top