Mirrorless help appreciated.

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7,146
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David
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#41
The M50 does have an excellent touch screen, as good as the Panasonic ones. I don't get why the others haven't got anything close to them yet. A fully articulating screen is nice at times, but tbh I'd prefer if my G80 had the plain tilt style, I find it more useful for macro especially, it doesn't get in the way like the flip out style. Both are better than a static screen of course
Agreed.

I've got a Nikon D5300 ... fabulous camera but sometimes wish, when handheld, that the screen would simply flip up and not come out the side as well.
 
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#42
Well, I agree that it matters hugely that you go and try them in your hands once you had a look at what everybody chips in with. It's also useful to bear in mind that a camera that I love might not float your boat at all. There are so many options now. I have been a Canon user for a very long time. I also have now an Olympus system for lighter gear days. My 5D4 without a grip and a prime lens is quite manageable. My Oly with a 14-40 is very light. When I went to the Photoshow a couple of years ago, I assumed I would be walking away with a Fuji [large, heavy longer lenses] in my hands or at least the decision made to go ahead with Fuji. I also tried the Sony stuff [boxy] and a Panasonic or two.

At a Fotothing in Bath, I listened to Mike Inkley, an Olympus ambassador who said that there are no bad cameras; he suggested doing the following:

1- write a list of the specs that really matter
2- identify the models of camera that can do
3- work out which ones are within budget and ignore the brand
4- cross out those that aren't within the budget
5- go and pick them up and see what they feel like in your hands.. job done.

Good luck with your decision.
 
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#43
Well, I agree that it matters hugely that you go and try them in your hands once you had a look at what everybody chips in with. It's also useful to bear in mind that a camera that I love might not float your boat at all. There are so many options now. I have been a Canon user for a very long time. I also have now an Olympus system for lighter gear days. My 5D4 without a grip and a prime lens is quite manageable. My Oly with a 14-40 is very light. When I went to the Photoshow a couple of years ago, I assumed I would be walking away with a Fuji [large, heavy longer lenses] in my hands or at least the decision made to go ahead with Fuji. I also tried the Sony stuff [boxy] and a Panasonic or two.

At a Fotothing in Bath, I listened to Mike Inkley, an Olympus ambassador who said that there are no bad cameras; he suggested doing the following:

1- write a list of the specs that really matter
2- identify the models of camera that can do
3- work out which ones are within budget and ignore the brand
4- cross out those that aren't within the budget
5- go and pick them up and see what they feel like in your hands.. job done.

Good luck with your decision.
That;s pretty much how I go about deciding on a new camera, the last one if the trickiest as there isn't a decent camera store anywhere close to me, so I have to depend on watching reviews, seeing the reviewer handle it and judge it on that - I can bus it to Dublin, 2hrs round bus trip with a lot of walking in between - and I'll do that if it's a significant purchase I'm planning. Of course, I won't buy it there as prices here are extortionate. I did buy my last one this way, I went to try the G80 out for size but came away with one as there was a great double cash back offer on at the time. Panasonic were giving you some but the shop itself were also doing their own instant cash back upon purchase, was too good not to take, also the camera felt better in hand than I had imagined it would.
 
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Marshall82
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Chris
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#44
Hey Chris @Marshall82 ... this ^^^ is good advice .... I've got the same .... :cool:
I'm actually going to buy used, but being unsure about best setups, I overwhelm myself with the amount of cameras on offer. Plus I would like something that will last a few years, then when I upgrade, the lenses will still fit.
 
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Marshall82
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#45
but tbh I'd prefer if my G80 had the plain tilt style
Sure. I can see why the tilt could be better. I don't care for using it for vlogs or selfies and things like that. I just want a good camera with a decent screen and a viewfinder
 
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Marshall82
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#46
1- write a list of the specs that really matter
2- identify the models of camera that can do
3- work out which ones are within budget and ignore the brand
4- cross out those that aren't within the budget
5- go and pick them up and see what they feel like in your hands.. job done.
Solid advice. Although, so far I am thinking the Fujifilm, but the Lumix series sound pretty decent too. Thanks for the information :)
 
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Marshall82
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#47
there isn't a decent camera store anywhere close to me
The same for me, well, unless I go to Edinburgh or Glasgow, which isn't that far by train. But I'm definitely going the used route, unless I do take a trip and find a good sale going on.
 
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#48
Sure. I can see why the tilt could be better. I don't care for using it for vlogs or selfies and things like that. I just want a good camera with a decent screen and a viewfinder
One useful thing abut the flip out screen is for vertical low down shots, You don't get quite the same benefit form the plain tilting one in those situations, but it's probably not all that often you would make use of it. Or shooting around corners :D

But in general for photography the tilt screen is preferable, I didn't realise how useful it was over the flip out until I switched from a Fuji XT1 to the G80. I thought the more flexible screen would be more useful but not really, like you I never turn the camera on myself, I rarely ever do video and when I do it's of other people - not arm extended on a gorrilapod aimed back at myself :D
 
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#49
Hi Marshall82

What all the people who responded are not telling you is that all the cameras you list are really good cameras, all will work really well for the type of interests you wish to use it for and which ever you buy you will be very pleased with the image quality.

I have very recently bought one of the cameras on your list and I am extremely pleased with the image quality and it's ergonomics, it fits the way I work. It would incredibly daft for me to for me to simply tell you to buy the same camera as I bought as the most important thing about a camera is how it feels in the hand also how the controls work for you. You can get used to a camera that does not really suit but when spending £500-£800 why should you. The only way to choose the camera is to go to a camera shop and get to hold and test every camera on your shortlist.
Don't choose a camera based on how popular it is on this or other photography forum website choose one that fits you and you won't be disappointed.
I do have to agree with redsnappa, go to a proper photography shop and try the cameras on your list, you will be more comfortable with a camera that ‘fits’. Most of us will recommend the camera brand we own, because we think it’s the best.
Yesterday I tried the Panasonic G9 and Olympus OMD1, my rather large hands drowned the Olympus and I found it difficult to twiddle the knobs. The other camera was a lot more comfortable.
If you are going to spend about £800.00 I would seriously make an effort to go to a photography shop rather than a PC world or Curry,s where usually the batteries are flat on the demo cameras, and the staff are not specialists unless you drop lucky. A photography shop assistant or owner will talk you through your choices and offer advice, believe me it’s worth it.
 
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#50
I do have to agree with redsnappa, go to a proper photography shop and try the cameras on your list, you will be more comfortable with a camera that ‘fits’. Most of us will recommend the camera brand we own, because we think it’s the best.
Yesterday I tried the Panasonic G9 and Olympus OMD1, my rather large hands drowned the Olympus and I found it difficult to twiddle the knobs. The other camera was a lot more comfortable.
If you are going to spend about £800.00 I would seriously make an effort to go to a photography shop rather than a PC world or Curry,s where usually the batteries are flat on the demo cameras, and the staff are not specialists unless you drop lucky. A photography shop assistant or owner will talk you through your choices and offer advice, believe me it’s worth it.
Very good advice and once you you have received all this expert help buy the camera there too.
John Lewis often have a good display with demo cameras that have charged up batteries you can try.
Bought my last one there, also get two years warranty on all electrical items which includes cameras.
 
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#51
Good point on the money side, we tend to forget when it comes to camera gear at times that £800 is a lot of money. I mean, I wouldn't spend that on a tv or hi-fi, more like half that amount, but when it's a camera 800 seems nothing these days. It's a big investment for those of us with other responsibilities, y'know ... needy kids and spouses :D having to feed and clothe them .... pfft :rolleyes:

I still believe most of your budget needs to go to lenses though, even 4-5yr old used cameras are up to the job still, if you don't need the touch screen, IBIS and insanely fast AF. If you're looking at say an XT30 but you're leaving yourself tight on the lens side, an XT20 for half the money used will free up that extra for a nice prime, or 2 if you catch some good used bargains. And besides the better AF, there's only really improved video functions. The XT20 has the same sensor as the XT2 - I would go for the T2 as it's ergonomically much nicer, you can get them in good con with the battery grip now for less than an XT30 body!
 
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Rich
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#52
Good point on the money side, we tend to forget when it comes to camera gear at times that £800 is a lot of money. I mean, I wouldn't spend that on a tv or hi-fi, more like half that amount, but when it's a camera 800 seems nothing these days. It's a big investment for those of us with other responsibilities, y'know ... needy kids and spouses :D having to feed and clothe them .... pfft :rolleyes:

I still believe most of your budget needs to go to lenses though, even 4-5yr old used cameras are up to the job still, if you don't need the touch screen, IBIS and insanely fast AF. If you're looking at say an XT30 but you're leaving yourself tight on the lens side, an XT20 for half the money used will free up that extra for a nice prime, or 2 if you catch some good used bargains. And besides the better AF, there's only really improved video functions. The XT20 has the same sensor as the XT2 - I would go for the T2 as it's ergonomically much nicer, you can get them in good con with the battery grip now for less than an XT30 body!
Good old E-M1 (2013 camera of the year) still does the business although I had one previously that suffered badly from shutter shock
Tried another one ( not sure why exactly) and this example doesn't exhibit any of the previous problems, no idea why that is.
Some older cameras are really showing their age now, Fuji X-E1 for instance. AF struggles to lock on and evf is very poor in comparison to newer models.
Loved mine, but when I got the X-E2 it was so much better, daresay that's showing its age now too
 
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#53
Good old E-M1 (2013 camera of the year) still does the business although I had one previously that suffered badly from shutter shock
Tried another one ( not sure why exactly) and this example doesn't exhibit any of the previous problems, no idea why that is.
Some older cameras are really showing their age now, Fuji X-E1 for instance. AF struggles to lock on and evf is very poor in comparison to newer models.
Loved mine, but when I got the X-E2 it was so much better, daresay that's showing its age now too
The XT1 with some of the older Fuji lenses like the 35 1.4 was a bit of a slug at times, and that was 2 years back when I used that combination, I'd find it really slow today. But, the next gen and onward were just fine, the XT2/20 and anything since were plenty fast enough.
 
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Marshall82
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Chris
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#55
responsibilities, y'know ... needy kids and spouses :D having to feed and clothe them .... pfft :rolleyes:
Ha. Yes, I know how this feels, and I won't be buying the camera for another month or two as I have a few big things I need to pay for first. But even if I got the more expensive camera, I'd happily buy a decent lens the following month (monthly wages).
So I still have time to mull over recommendations and advice :)
 
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Marshall82
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#56
John Lewis often have a good display with demo cameras
My closest is Glasgow I believe. The two year warranty is something I wouldn't get used, so that's another consideration. I wasn't going to buy from PC world, but I did get the feel of how a couple of mirrorless feel in the hand. I see DSLR are smaller now than my a350, but I just think mirrorless is what's better for my needs.
 
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#58
I'm actually considering the G9, or maybe it's the G8. I wouldn't like anything too small, and that kind of takes the 4/3 cameras out of my list.
Many of the latest M43 camera bodies are bigger than some of the FF mirrorless ones, the G9 is actually pretty beefy, looks an incredibly comfy camera too and is feature rich. It also has the best IBIS bar non on the market right now.

It's bigger and has much better grip than an XT2/3 for example and completely dwarfs a Sony A6300

http://j.mp/2YVIWPu
 
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Rich
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#59
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Toni
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#60
One thing to check out if you DO choose a camera with touch rear screen is that settings don't get altered when you hold it to your face to take a picture or when more generally handling the camera. My wife has an Olympus E-M10 (nice and light, decent image quality in good light) and is often finding the focus point isn't where she expected it to be.
 
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#61
One thing to check out if you DO choose a camera with touch rear screen is that settings don't get altered when you hold it to your face to take a picture or when more generally handling the camera. My wife has an Olympus E-M10 (nice and light, decent image quality in good light) and is often finding the focus point isn't where she expected it to be.
Very easy to do, happened to me all the time where the focus point had often gone astray.
Found a setting to deactivate touch screen af point, all ok again now
 
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#62
Very easy to do, happened to me all the time where the focus point had often gone astray.
Found a setting to deactivate touch screen af point, all ok again now
I should probably go through again, but Olympus menus aren't completely 'ideal', and I don't always remember because it's not my camera.
 
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#63
Olympus menus can be a bit of a wind up, at least the old em5 was for me, some of the sub sections didn't make sense, I'd spend ages tracking down what I was after if I didn't look it up. By contrast I think Panasonic's are much simpler, more intuitive, reminds me of the Fuji menu system.
 
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David
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#64
One thing to check out if you DO choose a camera with touch rear screen is that settings don't get altered when you hold it to your face to take a picture or when more generally handling the camera. My wife has an Olympus E-M10 (nice and light, decent image quality in good light) and is often finding the focus point isn't where she expected it to be.
Good point ... tho don't know if a camera like tha EM10 is the best example.

Anyone who is left eyed has to think twice ... especially with the old rangefinder type design ....
 
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#65
I used Fuji cameras for 2 years, I don't get the whole ease of use thing abut them that people immediately jump to. Sure, they have specific dials for ISO and exp comp, but tbh, using front and back control wheels on other cameras is no more complex. When I do use exp comp I set it much the same no matter the mod, I think it's actually a waste of space on Fuji bodies, some might use it a lot but I found I barely ever touched it, but I shoot in manual mode mostly.
I find switching back and forth between aperture priority and manual to e.g. 1/250sec and switch the ISO from auto to 160 or 200 + using the E.C. is much easier with those dials than the program select wheel, menu and custom buttons. It's a single twist and you're on the setting you want. To me it's a lot better way to build muscle memory to end up where you want.
 
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#66
I find switching back and forth between aperture priority and manual to e.g. 1/250sec and switch the ISO from auto to 160 or 200 + using the E.C. is much easier with those dials than the program select wheel, menu and custom buttons. It's a single twist and you're on the setting you want. To me it's a lot better way to build muscle memory to end up where you want.
I used Fuji cameras for 2 years, I didn't find switching back to other methods any hassle in the slightest. Personal preference per individual aside I'm talking overall, it's not actually as beneficial as some make out. You can do the exact same after an initial set up with custom fn buttons. Only better, you have the option to change this set up when desired. I never touch the menu for anything you mention, I have 2 control wheels t my finger tips for aperture and SS, if I want to change ISO there's a specific button for that and it takes all of a second to change. Fuji done well marketing their dedicated dials but I know I prefer some customization and I never feel I'm wasting any time
 
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#67
I used Fuji cameras for 2 years, I didn't find switching back to other methods any hassle in the slightest. Personal preference per individual aside I'm talking overall, it's not actually as beneficial as some make out. You can do the exact same after an initial set up with custom fn buttons. Only better, you have the option to change this set up when desired. I never touch the menu for anything you mention, I have 2 control wheels t my finger tips for aperture and SS, if I want to change ISO there's a specific button for that and it takes all of a second to change. Fuji done well marketing their dedicated dials but I know I prefer some customization and I never feel I'm wasting any time
To me its as beneficial as people makke it out to be. It must be how the individual is wired, some like it one way some another way.
 
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#68
To me its as beneficial as people makke it out to be. It must be how the individual is wired, some like it one way some another way.
I get it, like I say I used that system for a few years and I still say it's a bit over rated. I see no clear advantage as you can set any modern camera up to do the exact same. I don't think having the numbers on the dials makes much difference, you said yourself, it's more about muscle memory. I wish they'd make better use of the exp comp dial mostly, it's something I barely use so it's more in the way than useful
 
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#69
I get it, like I say I used that system for a few years and I still say it's a bit over rated. I see no clear advantage as you can set any modern camera up to do the exact same. I don't think having the numbers on the dials makes much difference, you said yourself, it's more about muscle memory. I wish they'd make better use of the exp comp dial mostly, it's something I barely use so it's more in the way than useful
To you its overrated to me its very beneficial. We just dont see it the same way
 
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#70
I had a few and still have one Fuji camera.
The dials do come in handy at times, I've got a habit of resetting Fn buttons then forgetting what they do.
Unlike many I like ISO on a menu and dislike the dials with a lock especially not keen on the double deck ones.
Rarely use the exp comp dial, fortunately for me because the one on the GX9 is nigh on inoperable with one thumb

Suppose you buy a camera with controls that suit, same as any of the other things that guides your purchase
 
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#71
I get it, like I say I used that system for a few years and I still say it's a bit over rated. I see no clear advantage as you can set any modern camera up to do the exact same. I don't think having the numbers on the dials makes much difference, you said yourself, it's more about muscle memory. I wish they'd make better use of the exp comp dial mostly, it's something I barely use so it's more in the way than useful
To me, the clear advantage is being able to see the main camera settings on the top of the camera and lens without having to even have the camera switched on. With blank dials you can only see the settings on the screen or evf, but each to their own, we'll all buy which system suits us best.
 
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#72
To you its overrated to me its very beneficial. We just dont see it the same way
Pretty much, but it's you quoted me to begin with, just responding is all ;)

I set my dials to do the same thing on every camera that has the option, rear dial - shutter speed, front wheel aperture, ISO already has a dedicated button on the D-pad on the G80, I just click that and the rear wheel becomes ISO setting temporarily. I don't find it any fiddlier than dedicated dials for these functions. Exp comp has it's own button too, when I hold this the rear wheel becomes the setting for that - I rarely need this if I'm mostly shooting manually. Of course it's all personal preference. Some people find it hard to use very small cameras, others don't like chunky grips etc ... this is why it's always best to get a physical hold on a camera you intend to buy. It's just not always possible.
 
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#73
I have had the Canon M50 for six months, primarily used for stock. Limited range of M lenses, the EF-M 11-22mm f/4-5.6 IS STM being the best, excellent lens.

The Canon 6098B005 Mount Adapter EF-EOS M allows Canon EF/EF-S lenses to be fitted.

I do a lot street photography and the M50 is a lot less ‘obvious’ than a DSLR set up, and a lot lighter to carry around.
 
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#74
I’d go the Fuji x-t2, even x-t1 route, the prices have dropped considerably since the x-t3 came out. You can pickup up a used x-t2 for around £500 and £300 for the x-t1. Leaving enough for a lens.
Used X-T1 should be more like £250 now unless you buy from a shop.

I was getting them for £300 about 18 months ago.
 
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#75
Used X-T1 should be more like £250 now unless you buy from a shop.

I was getting them for £300 about 18 months ago.
It's crazy how prices drop, I got €800 for mine with a 35 1.4 just about same, 18mths or back. I did throw in a load of extras but still. £250 is a right bargain for anyone who doesn't need really fast AF and doesn't care about MP count
 
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#76
It's crazy how prices drop, I got €800 for mine with a 35 1.4 just about same, 18mths or back. I did throw in a load of extras but still. £250 is a right bargain for anyone who doesn't need really fast AF and doesn't care about MP count
Cant wait for the X-T2 to drop to £400 - £450.

Oh boy that will be nice.
 
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Marshall82
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#78
It's not too far off, I've seen them go with the grip and spare batteries for about £600
What body would you recommend and then ecosystem of lenses that I can use when I eventually upgrade the body, or which company is best for lenses?
 
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#79
What body would you recommend and then ecosystem of lenses that I can use when I eventually upgrade the body, or which company is best for lenses?
If you can find an XT2 with the grip, spare batts and a lens within your budget you would be off to a great start. It's still a cracking camera today, the XT3 just improved on the AF system and added some nice video features, but as you state in your original post you don't need that side of it. The Fuji ecosystem may not be as vast and varied as other systems, but they don't really have any bad options when it comes to lenses. Their primes are tiny and excellent quality, perfect for hiking/traveling. Their 18-55 2.8-4 kit lens is as good as any kit lens from any system and would be the perfect one to kick off with.

I would also stand by the kit I suggested earlier in the thread:
Looking at used prices on MPB:
Panasonic Gx80 - £224
Panasonic 12-60 f/3.5-5.6 - £189
Panasonic 45-150 f/4-5.6 - £104
Panasonic 25mm f/1.7 - can be had for less than £150 brand new.

The whole set up would fit in a small messenger back and weighs only 1118g
 
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Marshall82
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#80
If you can find an XT2 with the grip, spare batts and a lens within your budget you would be off to a great start
I'm still considering the xt20, but I've been looking at the xt2 also, and I keep scouring eBay. Thanks again for all of this information and help. I did see a a6000 for 320 with lens, but I just don't like the Sony menu system and lack of touch screen.
 
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