Multiple shootings in Paris

This has always been one of the "problems" with the Muslim faith, is that there is not a figurehead. Having said that lets not forget there are many forms of Muslim religion, just as there are many forms of Christianity.
 
Russ77 said:
Who would you educate though?
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the masses who broadly support these f***wits - its a bit like the difference between the malayan insurgency and the war in vietnam... in malaya we set out to win the hearts and minds of the peasants thus removing the guerillas popular support, whilst selectively hunting the insurgents and pushing them to refuges away from the population where we could attack them without collateral damage ... this worked and the insurgency failed.

In vietnam first the french and then the americans tried to prop up a corrupt and brutal regime while bombing the hell out of the country indiscrimenately thus killing lots of peasants and creating support for the insurgents, that didnt work and both the french and americans lost.

so far the war on terror has more followed the vietnam model of getting good men killed to no purpose and failing to win over the citizenry, where as it needs to more follow the hearts and minds approach to seperate the terrs from their popular support
 
gramps said:
it does mean that I don't believe that you can entirely separate the effect from the cause.
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I understand where you are coming from, and throughout history we haven't been whiter than white.
But that was a 1000 or so years ago,
lots of things have changed over the years.
And I'm sure that we don't hold the Italians accountable for the atrocities of the Roman empire,
such as taking the Britons (Celts) into slavery.

History not being my strong point, I actually Googled Crusades and was interested to find this from Wiki

The Crusades were military campaigns sanctioned by the Latin Roman Catholic Church during the High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages. In 1095 Pope Urban II proclaimed the First Crusade with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to holy places in and near Jerusalem.

So actually, it was the Romans again.
They certainly have a lot to answer for ;)
 
There is probably no answer - but if there is an answer, then that answer probably lies in education.
Because until religious extremists understand that religion has no more validity than astrology, people will continue to believe that their particular views are right, ergo that everyone else's views are wrong. Extremist religions always have their base in ignorance - and arguably that applies to mainstream religions too - witness the strongly held religious convictions common in the southern states of America, and in this country before people were able to read for themselves.

And western countries need to understand that violence achieves nothing, other than to act as a recruiting Sgt for extremists.
And western countries also need to understand that the crimes originate from regions where democracy isn't understood or considered to be desirable, therefore views that are expressed in democratic countries with freedom of speech allowed/encouraged must be wrong, and must be punished.

In the current situation, all that can possibly be done is to fight fire with fire in the sense that heavily armed military or police can do what they can to protect the public from becoming victims of extremists, but that won't make the problem go away - all that it will do is to reduce (temporarily) the number of criminals available to carry out these acts of violence.
 
Cobra said:
I understand where you are coming from, and throughout history we haven't been whiter than white.
But that was a 1000 or so years ago,
lots of things have changed over the years.
And I'm sure that we don't hold the Italians accountable for the atrocities of the Roman empire,
such as taking the Britons (Celts) into slavery.

History not being my strong point, I actually Googled Crusades and was interested to find this from Wiki

The Crusades were military campaigns sanctioned by the Latin Roman Catholic Church during the High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages. In 1095 Pope Urban II proclaimed the First Crusade with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to holy places in and near Jerusalem.

So actually, it was the Romans again.
They certainly have a lot to answer for ;)
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Stricttly speaking the turks are probably to blame - if they hadnt invaded the holy land in the name of the prophet, the crusades wouldnt have had the excuse of 'reclaiming' it to enact a land grab.

Its also worth noting that Mohamed was generally freindly towards christians who he saw as misguided followers of an earlier prophet (jesus) - he did not consider them infidels or pagans, and when he was forced to flee mecca by the animist pagan authorities he was given sanctuary in a greek orthodox shrine in the sinai
 
Russ77 said:
Who would you educate though?
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I don't think you can identify any individuals.

A message needs to be made though. Catholicism has the Pope however I'm not sure what (if any) leadership exists in Islam.
 
Cobra said:
History not being my strong point, I actually Googled Crusades and was interested to find this from Wiki

The Crusades were military campaigns sanctioned by the Latin Roman Catholic Church during the High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages. In 1095 Pope Urban II proclaimed the First Crusade with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to holy places in and near Jerusalem.

So actually, it was the Romans again.
They certainly have a lot to answer for ;)
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Certainly the history of the Popes and the Roman Catholic hierarchy over the years, not the least in the last World War, makes for interesting reading.
 
Cobra said:
I understand where you are coming from, and throughout history we haven't been whiter than white.
But that was a 1000 or so years ago,
lots of things have changed over the years.
And I'm sure that we don't hold the Italians accountable for the atrocities of the Roman empire,
such as taking the Britons (Celts) into slavery.

History not being my strong point, I actually Googled Crusades and was interested to find this from Wiki

The Crusades were military campaigns sanctioned by the Latin Roman Catholic Church during the High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages. In 1095 Pope Urban II proclaimed the First Crusade with the stated goal of restoring Christian access to holy places in and near Jerusalem.

So actually, it was the Romans again.
They certainly have a lot to answer for ;)
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The Roman Empire is still with us, but they re-branded themselves as the Catholic church:)
 
dinners said:
I don't think you can identify any individuals.

A message needs to be made though. Catholicism has the Pope however I'm not sure what (if any) leadership exists in Islam.
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Whoever the grand ayatollah is now generally speaks for the shia branch - i'm not sure who if anyone speaks for the Sunni although there are various learned imans/mullahs who 'might' be listened to -
 
gramps said:
Certainly the history of the Popes and the Roman Catholic hierarchy over the years, not the least in the last World War, makes for interesting reading.
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/ off to read more (y)
 
Garry Edwards said:
Because until religious extremists understand that religion has no more validity than astrology, people will continue to believe that their particular views are right,
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Isn't that exactly what your statement is demonstrating on your part?
 
Garry Edwards said:
The Roman Empire is still with us, but they re-branded themselves as the Catholic church:)
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Oh absolutely, and yet if "history" is also to be believed, they murdered the son of their god!
No wonder religion is in turmoil Eh? ;)

but I digress ;)
 
Garry Edwards said:
There is probably no answer - but if there is an answer, then that answer probably lies in education.
Because until religious extremists understand that religion has no more validity than astrology, people will continue to believe that their particular views are right, ergo that everyone else's views are wrong.
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I certainly agree on religion having no more validity than astrology, but how will education prevent a nutter being a nutter? I don't really see religion as causing many of these things, it's more an excuse. Look at how many people around the world go nuts and kill others with no religious motivation whatsoever, that happens because sadly every now and then people go wrong and when they do they'll look for something to justify their actions. In my mind anyone who has it in them to kill others in such a way is probably beyond the point where sitting them in a classroom for a bit of an RE lesson will help.
 
These people won't listen to anybody normal Muslims wheel out. They have thier view in thier head and that's that.

All that will happen is the normal Muslim top brass will be killed by them and replaced by one of thier own.

There is no fix for this, it's too far gone. All we can do is try and prevent things like this on a local scale.

Bombing random countries won't get us anywhere, these people have no allegiance to a country, all you end up doing is p***ing more people off who weren't involved in the first place.

The only way this could possibly end is if the various different groups start fighting each other and end up wiping themselves out. It may happen, ISIS and Al Quiada have differing views so in time they could end up at war with each other.
 
ST4 said:
I am not sure how you fight an enemy willing to die for their cause. Exteme Islam is a very ugly thing and it raises its head far to often.
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No doubt the answer will be found in TP General discussion as always.
 
The way I see it......and I have been through this sort of s*** before........ you need to treat it like a plant......... damage the roots and the rest will die naturally.....Western countries need to start targeting the weak parts of the terrorists first and hit them hard, this means that they need to recruit and retrain and that takes time......then they need to target the fresh growth, that is to say those fresh recruits which have a little more training than the root level terrorists. quickly followed by hitting their financial supporters.........if they are other countries or the normal citizen on the street they need to be removed from the equation if they provide funds.... last a full on D day assault ( without the level of 1945 deaths etc) on the heart of the organisations.....We need to show them that we can take them down and we like them, have no fear......of course there will be casualties and death involved but to win a war you need to wage war......

the other option is Education but can we wait that long?
 
Cobra said:
And I don't disagree with you also :)
But its also been interested to note over the last few years,
the opinion swing, even among the members here ;)

A doctor will remove a gangrenous limb to stop the rot
spreading, but also, conversely, cutting off a Hydra's head is not a smart move, as
Greek mythology has proven time and time again.

As to the answer? I'm not sure there is a workable one TBH.
As always the civilised world failed to identify a problem and nip it in the bud.
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What I don't get, is if a group of people hate the west and western ways of life, then why do they come here to live/work/pro-create?

If a bowl of M&Ms were given to you, a large one with many in it, would you eat if if say a handful were poisoned.I wouldn't

It doesn't matter if the bulk are law abiding, the bad minority tarnish the rest by default - sadly. Like my analogy of the bowl of M&Ms the same alas applies.
 
ST4 said:
What I don't get, is if a group of people hate the west and western ways of life, then why do they come here to live/work/pro-create?

If a bowl of M&Ms were given to you, a large one with many in it, would you eat if if say a handful were poisoned.I wouldn't

It doesn't matter if the bulk are law abiding, the bad minority tarnish the rest by default - sadly. Like my analogy of the bowl of M&Ms the same alas applies.
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What was your view of the Irish during 'The Troubles'?
 
gramps said:
It would be good to hear a global condemnation from the Muslim community, rather than just an 'official' cleric or two being wheeled out.
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To be fair the ones I do have condemned it and are vehmently against it. They alas have faced up to how these extremists have tarnished their countrymen and religions reputation and are concerned how Islam is seen in the modern world
 
I don't think looking at the Established Christian Churches is helpful, Catholicism didn't ever condemn the IRA!

It's also not helpful saying we should have seen it coming, because we did, this has been on the cards from my knowledge since the 80's. What didn't happen, because it couldn't was the nipping in the bud.

It couldn't happen because the issue is the interpretation of Islam and no matter what you do, or say you cannot restrict what people believe or how they want to interpret their own religious book. That lesson has been learned so many times in history.

So the education idea while great in theory simply doesn't work. Nor does meeting violence with preemptive or violence or vengeance. All you do then is harden attitudes and reinforce the ideals behind the attacks on us in the first instance.

I think it's a given that we shouldn't change our system of democracy and free speech so you are left with trying to keep a lid on the problem. That's the least worst option but it's also not a guarantee of success either, just something we have to live with.
 
TCR4x4 said:
The only way this could possibly end is if the various different groups start fighting each other and end up wiping themselves out. It may happen, ISIS and Al Quiada have differing views so in time they could end up at war with each other.
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An interesting thought we can but hope, but I have to say that I am sceptical.
Maybe they will turn on each other once the "infidel"s have been crushed.
But that doesn't help us ;)

archangel said:
the other option is Education but can we wait that long?
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Education can be a powerful weapon indeed,
but teaching anything to any group of people / kids whoever,
there will always be a small amount that won't / don't want to listen.
So unfortunately like you I don't really see it being an answer
 
ST4 said:
What I don't get, is if a group of people hate the west and western ways of life, then why do they come here to live/work/pro-create?
.
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on the whole they didn't - it was their parents who came to the west largely for a better life (and lets not forget that pakistan was part of the empire/commonwealth , and we invited them while suffering a chronic skills shortage after the war). Thier children and grandchildren have however become disaffected and ripe for recruitment by extremists .. ironically this is partly because the influence of western values weaking the grip of their prents and traditional values, and also of western innovations such as the internet
 
gramps said:
It would be good to hear a global condemnation from the Muslim community, rather than just an 'official' cleric or two being wheeled out.
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Yes most Muslims are decent people but they have got to stand up to these extremists who do commit awful crimes in their name or this will only get worse
 
I have a really selfish view on all this and that is that i'm thankful to be living in this generation and not the next.
 
Cobra said:
An interesting thought we can but hope, but I have to say that I am sceptical.
Maybe they will turn on each other once the "infidel"s have been crushed.
But that doesn't help us ;)
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may be we can manipulate them into turning on each other first - a bit like we did with the germans/russians in ww2 ;) - more realistically perhaps we can forment a conflict between the shia arm (basically iran), and the extemist sunni of AQ and ISIL. - course an unfortunate side effec would be that a war in the gulf would screw up the oil supply
 
LCPete said:
Yes most Muslims are decent people but they have got to stand up to these extremists who do commit awful crimes in their name or this will only get worse
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Absolutely, its their problem as much as ours and by not acting and being seen not to be acting,
it looks like they are condoning the actions of the extremists.

Can you imagine a reversed scenario, of "native brits" riding rough shod
over another country? we'd soon have all sorts of sanctions and embargo's
thrust upon us, and that'd be just for starters.
 
I think that, eventually, (though certainly not in my lifetime) education WILL prevail.

Imtelligence will overcome the myths and legends of religion, and reality will assert itself over fairytales.

When people stop invoking the name of deities, and start facing the facts that humans are have and always will be responsible for all the good and bad in the world, perhaps then things will improve.

It's coming to a head.
 
ST4 said:
What I don't get, is if a group of people hate the west and western ways of life, then why do they come here to live/work/pro-create?

If a bowl of M&Ms were given to you, a large one with many in it, would you eat if if say a handful were poisoned.I wouldn't

It doesn't matter if the bulk are law abiding, the bad minority tarnish the rest by default - sadly. Like my analogy of the bowl of M&Ms the same alas applies.
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simply because that is there long time goal to assimilate themselves into our society and eventually take over .if you want to simplify it its a 1000 year plan or longer .they don't kill westerners or non muslims because they dislike us or even hate us but purely because there interpretation of the koran says they must .
the real trouble being that the book can be read or absorbed in different ways depending on which branch of islam your from look at the sunni-shia conflict for instance .every religion has its different sects i.e church of england-roman catholic-presbertyrian etc look at the pictures from israel where you have the ultra orthodox that walk round in the black robes and furry hats as opposed to normal ones that talk and act as europeans ,more or less two different cultures in one religion .

many years ago when i was a young lad growing up in a post war east end of london my dad ingrained in me a valuable lesson ,if your being ganged up on don't try and fight them all you will lose ,show no fear and take on the ring leader if possible take them out ,even if you lose you will gain there respect ,the same applies in the current situation we have lost there respect by treading cautiously and they have no fear of us .THIS MUST BE CHANGED NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE .
 
viv1969 said:
I think that, eventually, (though certainly not in my lifetime) education WILL prevail.
Intelligence will overcome the myths and legends of religion, and reality will assert itself over fairytales.
When people stop invoking the name of deities, and start facing the facts that humans are have and always will be responsible for all the good and bad in the world, perhaps then things will improve.
It's coming to a head.
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In an ideal world of course that would the solution / outcome.
Unfortunately the world is far from ideal.

Although I agree with your last point, that as more and more people are slowly being "touched" by the atrocities,
there is an increasing element of "this will come to a head" Whether thats in our life time or not, who can say?
 
viv1969 said:
When people stop invoking the name of deities, and start facing the facts that humans are have and always will be responsible for all the good and bad in the world, perhaps then things will improve.
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This echoes my thoughts too.
I can't believe (irony of choice of wording there is not lost on me), that someone is prepared to kill another human being all because of what I describe as an 'invisible man in the sky'. Yes, deep faith is much more ingrained in them than that, but essentially that's what it is.

I'd love to see a world without religion.
 
Russ77 said:
I fear that all the Iraq/Afghan conflicts have done is stirred up more support/sympathy with these terrorist groups and encouraged more people to join them.
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One of the most interesting comments in the thread. In many ways we reap what we sow, and I think America has been conducting an insidious war on Islam for many, many years now. And its allies have been sucked into it. The result has been scenes of horror in Madrid, London and many other places. Today's events in France have horrified me. What an appalling and senseless slaughter.
 
When people stop invoking the name of deities, and start facing the facts that humans are have and always will be responsible for all the good and bad in the world, perhaps then things will improve.
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Isn't that trying to change what is in reality a way of life to our way? Islam, the good part is a way of life, a life style, but not in the same way as most Christian religion is. You wont and can't change that, which is fine for the unpolluted version. Sadly though the perverse version is equally ingrained and followed. You can try all the education you like, you wont budge it.

As an example, I went out (briefly!) with a committed Christian, who refused point blank to believe that the world was created as an accident of nature. It was, in her view created by God in 7 days. No matter what science you put in front of her, no matter what the evidence was, that wouldn't change her mind. It was as stated in the Book of Genesis. Her faith was that strong. Now replace the earth with a view of non Muslims, and have people who's beliefs are equally strong and you soon realise that education is a hiding to nothing in many cases.
 
arclight said:
Two things I see as being completely unacceptable:-

1. People not being patriotic to their country. If you have British, Americam, French, German etc. nationality then that is where your unqualified allegiance must lie.

2. People puting their religion before their country.
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Really don't see the relevance of point 1. For example, I am British. I don't have a patriotic bone in my body. If there was such a thing as a European nationality and passport, I'd renounce my British ones in a flash. But that doesn't mean I am less horrified about the indefensible events in France today then anyone else.
 
Marcel said:
This echoes my thoughts too.
I can't believe (irony of choice of wording there is not lost on me), that someone is prepared to kill another human being all because of what I describe as an 'invisible man in the sky'. Yes, deep faith is much more ingrained in them than that, but essentially that's what it is.

I'd love to see a world without religion.
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Why not when men have been prepared to kill in thousands, (even allegedly after a friendly game of football midway), all because of the desires of a human ruler?
If these fanatics didn't have religion to use as an excuse there would be something else.
 
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