Multiple shootings in Paris

neil_g said:
and hopefully bringing to the end things like racism etc etc
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But sadly while there are people acting the way they do,
all they are doing is serving to promote it :(
 
ghoti said:
And exactly which terrorist attacks in the UK would this measure have prevented?
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I didn't state that it would prevent attacks........ but it would stop any person of islamic or any other faith from hiding their identity...... in todays world there is no need to hide your face..... it is just plain ridiculous....
 
ghoti said:
Nonsense.
The reality is that some individuals are allowed to settle civil disputes according to Islamic law with the consent of both parties. If one party disagrees, conventional civil law obviously takes precedence.
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Really? So I haven't watched covertly captured footage of a couple being harrassed on the streets because of the way the woman was dressed or a guy being physically threatened for drinking alcohol?
 
Russ77 said:
Really? So I haven't watched covertly captured footage of a couple being harrassed on the streets because of the way the woman was dressed or a guy being physically threatened for drinking alcohol?
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you could equally argue you've seen guys harassed because they 'looked at my girlfriend funny'. Or women harassed for any number of reasons. There are, and sadly always will be nobs. Blaming their behaviour on anything other then being a nob is a mistake.
 
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boyfalldown said:
you could equally argue you've seen guys harassed because they 'looked at my girlfriend funny'. Or women harassed for any number of reasons. There are, and sadly always will be nobs. Blaming there behaviour on anything other then being a nob is a mistake.
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indeed. but people always like to twist situations/stories to suit their political agenda.
 
boyfalldown said:
you could equally argue you've seen guys harassed because they 'looked at my girlfriend funny'. Or women harassed for any number of reasons. There are, and sadly always will be nobs. Blaming there behaviour on anything other then being a nob is a mistake.
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Exactly.

This isn't "Sharia law", it's a few people being idiots. All sorts of people act like idiots for all sorts of silly reasons. From that last post ("Sharia justice"!) you'd think there were legitimate, recognised Sharia courts dishing out lashings and amputations in the UK.
 
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Speaking as a doodler myself, I had to do this.

This event is shocking in many ways, the inability to express our thoughts and how twelve unarmed civilians died needlessly over a bit of satire. It's fair to say that certain aspect of the human race really do need help. Badly.
 
Personally I believe that we should all be tolerant, both about dress and other cultural practices.
I happen to think it looks a bit ridiculous if a moslem man walks along the road dressed for the desert, but that's his choice, and I also think it equally ridiculous if a moslem woman is covered from head to toe and becomes invisible and unidentifiable, but that's her choice - as long as she isn't using her culture or religious dress to hide her identity in order to commit crime.

But tolerance works 2 ways, there have been many verbal and physical assaults on scantily dressed women, whose exposure of flesh has offended people whose religion requires them to 'dress modestly' and who therefore seem to think that they have the right to impose their views on other people. It's the intolerance of other people's way of life that's wrong, wherever that comes from.
 
Garry Edwards said:
............., and I also think it equally ridiculous if a moslem woman is covered from head to toe and becomes invisible and unidentifiable, but that's her choice - as long as she isn't using her culture or religious dress to hide her identity in order to commit crime.
.
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Sadly, a great deal of the time it isn't her choice at all.

The Muslim faith has never called for women to cover thier faces.
Muslim men have.
 
boyfalldown said:
you could equally argue you've seen guys harassed because they 'looked at my girlfriend funny'. Or women harassed for any number of reasons. There are, and sadly always will be nobs. Blaming their behaviour on anything other then being a nob is a mistake.
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Correct but these guys were specifically quoting "Sharia Law".

People are always going to have disagrements, that's a given but NO ONE should be trying to practice Sharia Law on the streets of Britain, not even Muslims to Muslims.

If Muslims want to live their life according to Sharia Law (which I won't pretend to fully understand) then that's fine but they shouldn't be trying to use it against people that do not belive/live/abide by it if they do not live in an Islamic state.
 
Russ77 said:
Correct but these guys were specifically quoting "Sharia Law".

People are always going to have disagrements, that's a given but NO ONE should be trying to practice Sharia Law on the streets of Britain, not even Muslims to Muslims.

If Muslims want to live their life according to Sharia Law (which I won't pretend to fully understand) then that's fine but they shouldn't be trying to use it against people that do not belive/live/abide by it if they do not live in an Islamic state.
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I agree completely about practicing Sharia Law.

My point was those guys would have found any reason to behave like cocks. If it hadn't been Sharia Law they would of found some other equally dubious reason to pin their behaviour on
 
viv1969 said:
Is that like a local shop, for local people?
Come one Steve, the world doesn't run that way anymore.
There are people of all backgrounds and ethnicities mixing happily all over the world.
It's that continued diversity that will eventually lead to humans wising up and abandoning the religious fairytales. IMO.
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Why not share your views to the Saudi government over the living conditions they expect British people living there/working there to adhere too.

Go on.

Whilst your idea is a lovely one in theory, in practice it couldn't be further removed from reality alas.
 
big soft moose said:
so you arent welcome here if you arent a christian ? a great number of aethesists will be in the s*** then
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Where did I say that. You read everthing wrong. What I said is our western culture is descended from a christian one, not an islamic one and as such we shouldn't have to tolerate murder in our streeets in the name of Islam, arranged marriages and slavery which are deemed acceptable in Islamic countries.
 
ST4 said:
Why not share your views to the Saudi government over the living conditions they expect British people living there/working there to adhere too.

Go on.

Whilst your idea is a lovely one in theory, in practice it couldn't be further removed from reality alas.
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Hence the use of the word EVENTUALLY. :rolleyes:

And I've never had any problems in Riyadh :)
 
viv1969 said:
The Muslim faith has never called for women to cover thier faces.
Muslim men have.
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Either way it is incompatible with western traditions, and in some countries - the law. They can adapt or leave instead of causing public disorder and massacre.

What will happen to me if I go to islamic country and tell them all they do wrong and the way it should be done while drinking booze and eating pork pies. That would surely go down well.
 
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ST4 said:
Where did I say that. You read everthing wrong. What I said is our western culture is descended from a christian one, not an islamic one and as such we shouldn't have to tolerate murder in our streeets in the name of Islam, arranged marriages and slavery which are deemed acceptable in Islamic countries.
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so it would be alright if it was murder in the streets, arranged marriages, and slavery in the name of christianity ? (which is the case in some christian countries and has been in the past in many more)

personally i'm not aware of any country that sanctions murder in the streets in the name of any religion - except for the utterly lawless ones, or indeed of any islamic country in which slavery is still legal ( you will be aware that slavery still happens in the uk despite being illegal - right ? )
 
daugirdas said:
What will happen to me if I go to islamic country and tell them all they do wrong
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a bit like we and the american did in afghanistan in 2001 and in iraq in 2003 ...
 
ST4 said:
And they aren't by extension, and when they ways spread west this is what happens. We need to toughen up and lose the wishy washy liberal approach. These are western lands, derived from christian customs, not islamic ones.
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just remind me what part of the world christianity started in?
 
ST4 said:
Why not share your views to the Saudi government over the living conditions they expect British people living there/working there to adhere too.
.
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Again i'm puzzled as to what you think westerners in saudi can't do - I know for a fact that you can practice christianity in saudi without a problem , as my uncle worked there for about 18 years. They expect you not to bring alcohol into the kingdom - but in practice turn a blind eye so long as you don't drink it in in public or sell it to saudi nationals
 
big soft moose said:
Again i'm puzzled as to what you think westerners in saudi can't do - I know for a fact that you can practice christianity in saudi without a problem , as my uncle worked there for about 18 years. They expect you not to bring alcohol into the kingdom - but in practice turn a blind eye so long as you don't drink it in in public or sell it to saudi nationals
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Indeed. One of my friends is living and working there at the moment. She's having a wonderful time and has exactly the same experience with alcohol
 
boyfalldown said:
just remind me what part of the world christianity started in?
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this is the ironic thing - Jesus was a jew from the levant , if he were arround today many of the extreme rightwing 'christians' would probably tell him to keep his ideas to himself as they don't want any dirty foreigners telling us what to believe (his views were also quite left wing - virtually communist in some ways)
 
boyfalldown said:
Indeed. One of my friends is living and working there at the moment. She's having a wonderful time and has exactly the same experience with alcohol
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I did too....though it would have been nice to be able to drive around myself and see some of the country.
But that's not a religion thing.
 
viv1969 said:
I did too....though it would have been nice to be able to drive around myself and see some of the country.
But that's not a religion thing.
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As i recall theres not a great deal to see , its pretty much MMFD
 
big soft moose said:
Again i'm puzzled as to what you think westerners in saudi can't do - I know for a fact that you can practice christianity in saudi without a problem , as my uncle worked there for about 18 years. They expect you not to bring alcohol into the kingdom - but in practice turn a blind eye so long as you don't drink it in in public or sell it to saudi nationals
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And there is the key.........

They turn a blind eye to alcohol consumption but if you started protesting that you wanted alcohol to be consumed freely and open a brewery/pub..............

If some outspoken, non-Islamic Westerners went to Saudi and started calling into questions the laws of the land their feet wouldn't touch, so why should it be any different to some outspoken Muslims going to a non-Islamic country?

The message should be very clear in both cases "Accept it or feel free to leave"
 
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neil_g said:
technically we were coerced into Christianity by the Romans. Who if my history serves me right conquered a lot of people and enslaved a lot too.

;)
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Irrelevant, 2000 years ago. Now its been christian for as long as we and any living person can remember, and some.

Perhaps you could tell the Isralie's this theory ref Palestine and why what they are doing there is completely wrong. We must lie down/bend over and watch our ways/customs be compromised to accomodate Muslim ones.
 
ST4 said:
Irrelevant, 2000 years ago. Now its been christian for as long as we and any living person can remember, and some.

Perhaps you could tell the Isralie's this theory ref Palestine and why what they are doing there is completely wrong. We must lie down/bend over and watch our ways/customs be compromised to accomodate Muslim ones.
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yeah and Israel is another one of our amazing success stories..

edit: oh and its not irrelevant. if anything it puts christianity and islam in the same bed when it comes to bloodshed through the ages.
 
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Russ77 said:
And there is the key.........

They turn a blind eye to alcohol consumption but if you started protesting that you wanted alcohol to be consumed freely and open a brewery/pub..............

If some outspoken, non-Islamic Westerners went to Saudi and started calling into questions the laws of the land their feet wouldn't touch, so why should it be any different to some outspoken Muslims going to a non-Islamic country?

The message should be very clear in both cases "Accept it or feel free to leave"
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yes but the point that you and steve are missing is that vast majority of muslims in the uk arent 'calling into question the laws of the land' - the vast majority are just getting on with their lives and not bothering anyone.... insisting that they can't where their traditional dress, or worship as they wish is what would be contrary to our culture.

Its also what the terrorists want - because the more we act in an undemocratic way towards our own population and muslims in general the more converts they get to their cause (vis what i was saying earlier about success in malaya vs absolute cock up in vietnam), if they could provoke the americans into launching a nuclear strike on mecca ISIL would be happier thasn unclean pigs in s*** because at a stroke we'd have made enimies of all of islam rather than a few thousand head cases that the majority of muslims either think are wrong or don't care about at all.
 
big soft moose said:
As i recall theres not a great deal to see , its pretty much MMFD
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Indeed, but the chance to find that out without the need for a chauffeur would have been nice.
There's no actual law against women driving there, but of course the cost of doing so can be severe.
IIRC though, speaking to women out there, the majority of Saudi women couldn't care less....no desire to drive.
 
ST4 said:
Irrelevant, 2000 years ago. Now its been christian for as long as we and any living person can remember, and some.
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actually the UK is a secular state - we don't insist on every member of the population being a christian and havent for a long time ... although the queen is head of the Cof E she is also removed from government and the Church doesnt have direct input into our laws

ST4 said:
Perhaps you could tell the Isralie's this theory ref Palestine and why what they are doing there is completely wrong. We must lie down/bend over and watch our ways/customs be compromised to accomodate Muslim ones.
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thats possibly the worst example in a thread littered with bad examples - isreal was palestine within living memory
 
ST4 said:
Sounds a nice progressive place. Imagine that way of life being spread over here.
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At least they're trying....slowly.
Women in Saudi gain the vote in local elections this year.
Progress of this nature is slow Steve, but it happens nonetheless.
 
big soft moose said:
yes but the point that you and steve are missing is that vast majority of muslims in the uk arent 'calling into question the laws of the land' - the vast majority are just getting on with their lives and not bothering anyone.... insisting that they can't where their traditional dress, or worship as they wish is what would be contrary to our culture.

Its also what the terrorists want - because the more we act in an undemocratic way towards our own population and muslims in general the more converts they get to their cause (vis what i was saying earlier about success in malaya vs absolute cock up in vietnam), if they could provoke the americans into launching a nuclear strike on mecca ISIL would be happier thasn unclean pigs in s*** because at a stroke we'd have made enimies of all of islam rather than a few thousand head cases that the majority of muslims either think are wrong or don't care about at all.
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I'm not missing any point...... I'm not saying this applies to the vast majority of Muslims, not at all.

Maybe I just need to clarify a little......... my comments should apply to anyone who chooses to go an live in a country where their beliefs/customs/practices confilt with those of the country they've moved to.

My point is that IMO the UK is being too tolerant and has been too tolerant for years....... Take "Mr Hook" (Abu Hamza?), he was allowed to stay in this country for years, preacing hate against western civilisation while time claiming benefits from the country he claims to hate. Perhaps if he'd been sent on his merry way early doors it would have sent a clear message to others like him that they're not welcome and should look elsewhere for a place to live/preach.

Free speech is one thing, stirring up hatred and wishing harm on others is completely another and needs to be dealt with robustly.
 
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