Beginner Need to choose a camera...

[NewShoota]

Had a quick scan on prices of bodies and Lenses:

Nikon D500 + Nikon AF-S 24-70mm f2.8E = £1700 + £1650 = £3350 (thanks realspeed)
vs
Panasonic G80 + Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8 II + Panasonic 35-100mm f2.8 II = £600 + £830 + £879 = £2309

What do we think?

Thanks,

NewShoota

No response on this..

Panasonic G80 & 2 lenses no good?
If not, why?

I'm just trying to understand, I should point out.

Thanks,

NewShoota

 

[Nostromo]

No response on this..

Panasonic G80 & 2 lenses no good?
If not, why?

I'm just trying to understand, I should point out.

Thanks,

NewShoota

Sorry i can't comment on these, I'm a Canon user.

 

[sirch]

No response on this..

Panasonic G80 & 2 lenses no good?
If not, why?

I'm just trying to understand, I should point out.

Thanks,

NewShoota

You are comparing apples and pears there, they are different things, different sensor formats, different sizes and weights, different autofocus systems . As I said above go and look at these in a shop, get your hands on but mainly decide whether you want a motorbike, a car or a van first and then start thinking about make and model.

One of the main things that ties you into a make/sensor is the range of lenses you commit to. Suppose you went with the G80, as you note the lenses are nearly 3/4 of the cost. Once you have bought those lenses you are committed to micro four thirds (MFT), you can use other MFT bodies, e.g. other Panasonic or Olympus, but it's a lot of cost to trade in the lenses and switch to Nikon or Canon

It sounds like what you really need to do is spend a few hundred quid on an older second hand body and lens, use it, learn what it is all about and then trade that in for something you really want. After all your first car wasn’t a Ferrari or Bentley was it?

 

[chris malcolm]

Your first exchangeable lens camera is an educational tool. With it you will learn not only the basic of photography but what kinds of shots you're really interested enough to want to spend a lot of money on top class gear, what kinds of photograph where cheap and good carry around just in case snapshot portability trumps a heavy bagful of superior equipment, how much bother and learning you're prepared to go through, and so on. So you should buy cheap and versatile and forget about trying to guess what kind of camera system you'll really want to invest after a couple of years of experience and learning. In fact whatever might be the best system for your needs today might well turn out not to be in two year's time. The technology is currently developing fast. What you want is a beginner's educational tool. What you're paying for is your education.

 

[woof woof]

...and which lenses would you recommend?
From what I've read "The Glass" is the most important part of this jigsaw.
Can 3 lenses be had for £1500 ? leaving around £300 for accessories?

It's all starting to add up FAST

Had a quick scan on prices of bodies and Lenses:


Nikon D500 + Nikon AF-S 24-70mm f2.8E = £1700 + £1650 = £3350 (thanks realspeed)
vs
Panasonic G80 + Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8 II + Panasonic 35-100mm f2.8 II = £600 + £830 + £879 = £2309

What do we think?

Thanks,

NewShoota

I have the original version of the Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8 and it's a very good lens. You may be able to save some money going for the MK1 versions of both lenses, assuming you can find them at good prices, unless you think that the MK2's are better and worth the extra cost.

Looking at the Nikon I assume that the D500 is an APS-C body? If it is the 24-70mm is a full frame lens and you therefore have to apply the crop factor of x1.5 to the focal length making it in effect a 36-105mm lens and that might suit you very well but a more conventional kit lens length would be 18-50mm. I don't know if Nikon make one or not as it's years since I had a Nikon but I'd be looking for a 18-50mm f2.8 to use on an APS-C Nikon DSLR. Actually if Nikon don't make one Sigma and Tamron do. I used to have the Tamron 17-50mm f2.8 in Canon mount and it's an excellent lens.

If video is important to you the MFT (micro four third) camera may be a better bet as Panasonic seem to have a reputation for being good for vid.

 

[woof woof]

Your first exchangeable lens camera is an educational tool. With it you will learn not only the basic of photography but what kinds of shots you're really interested enough to want to spend a lot of money on top class gear, what kinds of photograph where cheap and good carry around just in case snapshot portability trumps a heavy bagful of superior equipment, how much bother and learning you're prepared to go through, and so on. So you should buy cheap and versatile and forget about trying to guess what kind of camera system you'll really want to invest after a couple of years of experience and learning. In fact whatever might be the best system for your needs today might well turn out not to be in two year's time. The technology is currently developing fast. What you want is a beginner's educational tool. What you're paying for is your education.

Hmmm. Sounds like a recipe for wasting money to me.

Spending time thinking, reading blogs and articles and watching YouTube vids and of course surfing forums may help to focus the mind and lead to more intelligent and well informed purchases and I think I'd rather do that than dive in, buy cheap and end up on the switching systems and / or "upgrading" path that so many just don't seem able to get off. Not that I think that the first buy will last a lifetime but it needn't be a purchase made with the intent of moving on in just two years time.

This is worth a read...

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/05/letter-to-george.html

 

[realspeed]

Hdew price
Nikon D500 = £1360.00
Nikon 20-70 VR = £1699
Total =£3059


Right on your budget

 

[Nostromo]

Hdew price
Nikon D500 = £1360.00
Nikon 20-70 VR = £1699
Total =£3059


Right on your budget

Right on budget, but for £3000 he'll end up with one body and one lens only. I just think that his money could be better spent

 

[Deleted member 49428]

Hmmm. Sounds like a recipe for wasting money to me.

Spending time thinking, reading blogs and articles and watching YouTube vids and of course surfing forums may help to focus the mind and lead to more intelligent and well informed purchases and I think I'd rather do that than dive in, buy cheap and end up on the switching systems and / or "upgrading" path that so many just don't seem able to get off. Not that I think that the first buy will last a lifetime but it needn't be a purchase made with the intent of moving on in just two years time.

This is worth a read...

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/05/letter-to-george.html

So following that logic wanting to get in to photography one might as well go full frame with the first purchase? Waste of money is inevitably in this hobby anyway

 

[Faldrax]

A number of different options have been suggested, and different folks have suggested either buying cheap to learn, or spending more and avoiding the cost of upgrading.

Given that you appear to have a decent amount to spend, a third option is to buy 'cheap and light' - as a system to learn with, but also to keep longer term as a 'travel' kit, or for the occasions when a larger camera & lenses will be out of place.

For example

Sony A6000 + 16-50 = 560g, £490 (after £50 cashback)
Nikon D500 + 24-70 VR = 1930g, £3059

For a lot of 'casual' photography you will get quite similar results from both systems - both offer a range of auto and manual modes, both would be fine to learn with.

NB: I've used the Sony as an example, as that is what I use as my 'travel' camera - I've added the 55-210 zoom, 50/f1/8 fast prime and a small Meilke 320 flash to give a kit that does 90% of what I might want at a fraction of the weight and cost of my FF gear.
Others have suggested M43 options, which I am sure would be just as good.

There are limits to the range of lenses that you can get for such cameras - but in many ways they are a lot more practical, and when you are learning you will want to have the camera with you to take shots whenever you see an opportunity.

Once you have learned what everything does, and, to a larger degree what you like and dislike shooting, you will be in a much better situation to start spending large sums on a 'main' camera system, if you find the smaller camera does not fit your needs (and you may well end up with both)

 

[an1uk]

It's possible to use a crop camera alongside a full frame and interchange lenses. I understand Canon prevents you mounting crop lenses to full frame bodies but not the reverse, Sony don't, no idea on Nikon. Having said that since I got my A7 my A5100 has seen little use, should probably sell it.

 

[TLR-330]

It's possible to use a crop camera alongside a full frame and interchange lenses. I understand Canon prevents you mounting crop lenses to full frame bodies but not the reverse, Sony don't, no idea on Nikon.

You can use Full Frame lenses on crop Nikon (D7200) and I believe the other way round too (DX on Full Frame camera)/

 

[woof woof]

So following that logic wanting to get in to photography one might as well go full frame with the first purchase? Waste of money is inevitably in this hobby anyway

You can go to either extreme but maybe there's nothing wrong with engaging ones brain and thinking about it all before spending money. For some the spending money bit and getting and selling kit over and over is a part of it and very enjoyable and there's nothing wrong with that if you have the money... It's just a matter of how you view "photography."

For me the gear is a part of it but on the whole given the choice of continuous shopping and experiencing every camera and lens on the market on one hand and taking and enjoying pictures on the other the taking and enjoying pictures wins out and by quite a large margin. But that's just me.

And to answer you directly about FF as a first purchase, yes, it's a valid option but I'll give you another one.

I have a FF A7 and also MFT. For MFT I have zooms covering a FF equivalent of 18-400mm and some nice fast primes too. I could easily afford a FF set up of equivalent lenses but it isn't the cost that puts me off it's the bulk and weight. Imagine what FF lenses covering that range would weigh... and cost... it'd be enough to give you back ache, I know because I used to have a FF DSLR and lenses. Another issue is how big, in your face and attention grabbing a DSLR and lens can be. I like to be unobtrusive and I therefore much prefer a more compact and discrete camera.

All these things are worth thinking about and if one can think deeply and clearly and honestly enough about ones wants and needs maybe buying a system to suit and last for years could be possible and I'd see that as preferable to getting on the upgrade/swapping systems treadmill that many seem to live for.

YMMV.

 

[Deleted member 49428]

You can go to either extreme but maybe there's nothing wrong with engaging ones brain and thinking about it all before spending money. For some the spending money bit and getting and selling kit over and over is a part of it and very enjoyable and there's nothing wrong with that if you have the money... It's just a matter of how you view "photography."

For me the gear is a part of it but on the whole given the choice of continuous shopping and experiencing every camera and lens on the market on one hand and taking and enjoying pictures on the other the taking and enjoying pictures wins out and by quite a large margin. But that's just me.

And to answer you directly about FF as a first purchase, yes, it's a valid option but I'll give you another one.

I have a FF A7 and also MFT. For MFT I have zooms covering a FF equivalent of 18-400mm and some nice fast primes too. I could easily afford a FF set up of equivalent lenses but it isn't the cost that puts me off it's the bulk and weight. Imagine what FF lenses covering that range would weigh... and cost... it'd be enough to give you back ache, I know because I used to have a FF DSLR and lenses. Another issue is how big, in your face and attention grabbing a DSLR and lens can be. I like to be unobtrusive and I therefore much prefer a more compact and discrete camera.

All these things are worth thinking about and if one can think deeply and clearly and honestly enough about ones wants and needs maybe buying a system to suit and last for years could be possible and I'd see that as preferable to getting on the upgrade/swapping systems treadmill that many seem to live for.

YMMV.

Offcource but no matter how hard you think, how much research you do youll always get wiser with experience good or bad and sometimes right after purchase. It takes some time to know if the path is right, if that lens does fullfill your needs or if your chosen format delivers to your satisfaction. No matter how hard you think you wont know the stuff thats learned from experience or what you stumple upon on the way that just feels right. I have an a6000 and had the opportunity to borrow an a7II to see if 24x36 was what I want. At that time it wasnt and still aint but I do play with the idea of purchasing a D750 as i have some good afd lenses so.....

 

[Phil V]

Hmmm. Sounds like a recipe for wasting money to me.

Spending time thinking, reading blogs and articles and watching YouTube vids and of course surfing forums may help to focus the mind and lead to more intelligent and well informed purchases and I think I'd rather do that than dive in, buy cheap and end up on the switching systems and / or "upgrading" path that so many just don't seem able to get off. Not that I think that the first buy will last a lifetime but it needn't be a purchase made with the intent of moving on in just two years time.

This is worth a read...

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/05/letter-to-george.html

Sorry but I agree with @chris malcolm
There's no amount of research that will fit the OP's requirements, personality, lifestyle, family and friends.

He will buy something that doesn't suit, learn and move on. Just like we all did.

If it was possible to find the perfect system we'd all be using the same. The fact we're not proves Chris' point.

My advice:
Spend enough to learn what you don't like, then what you do, what you need, which will be unique to you.

 

[Phil V]

You can use Full Frame lenses on crop Nikon (D7200) and I believe the other way round too (DX on Full Frame camera)/

'Use' isn't that helpful.

IIRC some do lenses will mount but just set the camera into do mode.

And all things considered, fx and dx cameras require different focal lengths.

It's bad advice to the uninitiated to just tell them that stuff 'fits'.

 

[TLR-330]

Feel free to follow up to the post I commented ;-)

 

[woof woof]

Offcource but no matter how hard you think, how much research you do youll always get wiser with experience good or bad and sometimes right after purchase. It takes some time to know if the path is right, if that lens does fullfill your needs or if your chosen format delivers to your satisfaction. No matter how hard you think you wont know the stuff thats learned from experience or what you stumple upon on the way that just feels right. I have an a6000 and had the opportunity to borrow an a7II to see if 24x36 was what I want. At that time it wasnt and still aint but I do play with the idea of purchasing a D750 as i have some good afd lenses so.....

Yes you'll get wiser with experience but you don't have to start blind or spend your money based on what some bloke on a forum or some bloke in a shop recommends. All I'm recommending is putting a little thought and effort into the process rather than the buy, suck it and see and sell it if I don't like it and start all over again approach. Maybe I've just got better things to do with my time and money.

This is just me... I start with the end result and work back from there to work out what gear and settings I need to get that end result. That doesn't seem too brain taxing an exercise to me.

Sorry but I agree with @chris malcolm
There's no amount of research that will fit the OP's requirements, personality, lifestyle, family and friends.

He will buy something that doesn't suit, learn and move on. Just like we all did.

If it was possible to find the perfect system we'd all be using the same. The fact we're not proves Chris' point.

My advice:
Spend enough to learn what you don't like, then what you do, what you need, which will be unique to you.

There's no need to apologise but it's nice to see you do it for once

I wont waste my time saying that there's a perfect system out there but I will take the time to say that it's easy to waste time and money buying the wrong stuff. A bit of thought and research can reduce the chance of doing that. Argue against that and I'm afraid my advice to you would be to wake up and stop giving daft advice. It aint rocket science but if the op decides that buying almost anything recommended by people on forums and selling it on at a loss if it doesn't suit (as many on forums do) is a good idea then he can do as you as you and Chris suggest. It's only money

 

[Phil V]

There's no need to apologise but it's nice to see you do it for once

I wont waste my time saying that there's a perfect system out there but I will take the time to say that it's easy to waste time and money buying the wrong stuff. A bit of thought and research can reduce the chance of doing that. Argue against that and I'm afraid my advice to you would be to wake up and stop giving daft advice. It aint rocket science but if the op decides that buying almost anything recommended by people on forums and selling it on at a loss if it doesn't suit (as many on forums do) is a good idea then he can do as you as you and Chris suggest. It's only money

I do believe you're exaggerating my point.
I'm not suggesting the OP does 'no research', if that were the case I'd not have offered help in his 'research' question.
Nor am I suggesting he buys 'everything suggested by others '.
I thought it was obvious I was suggesting that he starts by spending 'a little' and learning for himself what suits him.

The reality is that we all end up with our own unique kit, because of the cocktail of what we want to shoot, budget, physical differences, social pressures and personality.

Telling someone to 'try a few different cameras' when they've never used one is like saying the same to a non driver about a car. They aren't in a position to find the 'answer' because they haven't even nailed the question yet.

My first AF SLR was a Pentax, because I already had some Pentax lenses (advice from the shop, I still see repeated). It literally lasted a week. The lenses 'fit' but didn't work to a spec I was happy with.

 

[Deleted member 49428]

Yes you'll get wiser with experience but you don't have to start blind or spend your money based on what some bloke on a forum or some bloke in a shop recommends. All I'm recommending is putting a little thought and effort into the process rather than the buy, suck it and see and sell it if I don't like it and start all over again approach. Maybe I've just got better things to do with my time and money.

I think basicly we agree in trying to figure out whats right before buying but that people ask tjese questions and gives shortlists like the op in this thread shows that so do they. The problem is that if you are a beginner then what do you need to consider? How would you know if one or another feature is important to you in a few months when you see these great shots on TP? How are you gonna get into the deeper and more sofisticated features in the menu of your camera and find they suit you better on a different make if you dont know what the heck they do?

This is just me... I start with the end result and work back from there to work out what gear and settings I need to get that end result. That doesn't seem too brain taxing an exercise to me.
SNIP<

But how is a beginner supposed to know whats needed? As an experiensed hobbyist Im sometimes strugling, I know im the weak link, that my camera can deliver all the quality I need, that if the af isnt fast enough I can prefocus and the 10frames/sec will probably give me something usable or Ill have hell deleting them all and if my images arent sharp I should look at my own skills and not blame the camera. Still I find myself wanting something different from time to time. A D750 or the A7II, mabe skip both systems and buy canon and Ive been shooting for decades. But starting out your a blank paper and while you can research and make priorities trying to figure out the best approach and purchase its all still gonna be guesswork, you simply can't make the best buy from the start. Then again mostly almost anything will do just fine.

 

[Deleted member 49428]

I do believe you're exaggerating my point.
I'm not suggesting the OP does 'no research', if that were the case I'd not have offered help in his 'research' question.
Nor am I suggesting he buys 'everything suggested by others '.
I thought it was obvious I was suggesting that he starts by spending 'a little' and learning for himself what suits him.

The reality is that we all end up with our own unique kit, because of the cocktail of what we want to shoot, budget, physical differences, social pressures and personality.

Telling someone to 'try a few different cameras' when they've never used one is like saying the same to a non driver about a car. They aren't in a position to find the 'answer' because they haven't even nailed the question yet.

My first AF SLR was a Pentax, because I already had some Pentax lenses (advice from the shop, I still see repeated). It literally lasted a week. The lenses 'fit' but didn't work to a spec I was happy with.

Exactly

 

[Teflon-Mike]

Attempting to pull thread a bit back on track... OP is a newby, with little or or declared specialist photo knowledge or experience, and no mention of any specialist interest outside of the main stream, family & friends 'snap-shot' or 'social' photography of people, places and events. Even if they suggest that might be 'portraiture'.

That remit suggested by the OP is for a camera, that is a BIT more capable and versatile than a smart-phone; a general purpose picture maker, with 'scope' to expand versatility and ability, as they progress with their enthusiasm, and learn to exploit the equipment in whatever direction they may discover along the way.

This does hint at interchangeable lens cameras, DSLR's and CSC's rather than do-it-all super-compacts or bridge cameras; of which entry level DSLR's are probably the more appropriate and cost effective solution. CSC's. fantastic as they may be are the less well supported systems, and their major advantage is that they are more compact and possibly more 'discreet' Which is small advantage to weigh against the smaller scope of possible expansion made possible with System DSLR's with far greater array and usually far more available and affordable lenses and accessories, as well as know-how and general support.

As the basis for ANY-ONE, a crop-sensor DSLR on it's own, is pretty much the 'universal' component of their 'outfit'.. of what is in the body, most have far more capability and functionality that most will ever need, even pressed into service in specialist genre's bolted to a telescope or stuck in a SCUBA diving housing! The 'kit' lens that comes with one, in the 18-55mm range, maybe a little limiting, but heck! Its a pretty darn good start, especially as they usually give the ruddy things away in 'Kits; with the body that are frequently cheaper than buying the camera 'body only'!! That get's some-one off the stops, armed pretty darn well, for most general photo, and certainly for a heck of a lot of possible situations and scenarios suggested by 'family & Friends' social and portrait photography!

The capability to build on that basic outfit, as skill and interest develops is very very good, whilst the 'risk' of wasting money? Buying something not 'quite' good enough, or not quite the right tool for the job?

Lets take a step back and look at the bigger picture here a second; We have NO IDEA how the OP's interests may evolve in the arena if at all! Realistically the BIGGEST risk they face at the moment is wasting ALL they spend on their starter outfit; when they don't achieve the results they hope for from it fresh off the stops; and the 'enthusiasm' for the pursuit begs a revision and elevation of both their expectations and standards, well beyond their means to attain them, and disappointment that ALL the money spent isn't full-fulling their expectations bites, and the whole lot end up on a high shelf or e-bay almost un-used.

The plethora of choices they would have to make, with so much more elevated equipment, are actually even more likely to increase that risk, and look at the OP's original question! They are struggling before they even begin to make a decision over which camera to buy! Get past that and give them an great a array of choices of what bits of kit to pick out the bag, an what settings to use! are likely to be eve MORE overwhelming!! Its a recipe for apoplexy and a nervous ruddy breakdown! NOT aspiration fulfilling photo's!

The ability of a camera, to make better photo's, from whatever is in the box of electrickery IS incredibly limited, whatever the camera; so much MORE is to be found looking through the ruddy thing than at it; that the very questionable benefits of more refined cameras are at best a tiny fraction of a fraction of what t takes to achieve the end, where a photo is judged on its own merits, not on the those of the camera that was used to make it.

OP needs advice on what camera would, as a brand new starter to the pursuit, best suit their needs; of which there is little or no suggestion that they have ANY more elevated or esoteric interests to beg ANYTHING more specialized or capable than a general purpose picture maker of more enthusiast standard and capability as embodied by the entry level DSLR, which has PLENTY of capability for even the more demanding user, well into the realms of more specialist photography, and where even there, an APS-C sensor camera, is still at the 'core' of most, even demanding enthusiast photographers outfit, and many professionals!

To get them off the stops and have them a nudge in the right direction and best chance to have a more enjoyable entry into the pursuit of enthusiast photograph, what the OP needs, is their choices simplified, so they can make one; not for the reasons for those suggested choices to be over analyses, over complicated and elaborated upon, pontificating ever more rarefied and remote considerations of how their photo career may develop and what hardware might be more or less suited to any such evolution!!!

Newshoota? Still with us? CURRYS on the high-Street, have the Cannon 1300D with kit 18-55 for under £350; or the Nikon D3300, with similar 18-55 kit lens, also for under £350..... entry level DSLR's, from the incumbents in the market, with enormous scope to build a kit around, as interest and ability evolve....

WHY you may need to spend over two grand MORE than that, to 'save' money, as is being suggested just boggles, it really does! With SO much 'chaff' being chucked into the arena to confound; THAT is my suggestion; CUT to the chase; get down to Curries, their volume sales mean that they are pretty competitive and you would likely struggle to find a cheaper deal, especially on a starter camera; So go have a look, have a play see which one seems easier to use, is more comfy in the hand; keep it simple; keep money in the bank, until you have much more and better reason to spend it on anything; and buy as LITTLE as you can get away with, here and now, to get you going.. it will likely take you a HECK of a long way, if you want to, and NOT spending money is the best way I know to 'save' money!

Half an hour in the shop, and you will walk out with something more than good enough to get you started and take you a heck of a long way into the arena of enthusiast photography, you may NEVER need upgrade.. heck, I've been doing this photography thing for almost forty years! I have absolutely NO compunction to trade in, upgrade or otherwise change my five year old entry level DSLR and the 18-55 kit lens that is my most used by FAR for it, for anything of more 'elevated' standard; it does the job, and if anything lets down my photo's, its me, NOT my ruddy camera, and THAT is with formal education in the ruddy pursuit!

At some pot you have to make a decisions; whether that is to give up on the idea before you begin, or pick something, ANYTHING to get going with, and then, ALL you can do is hope that you haven't wasted TOO much money, and you WILL be able to get some use out of it! I'll say it again; Curry's, entry level Nikon or Cannon DSLR, and kit 18-55, maybe a spare battery, a half decent memory card, and perhaps a not too expensive tripod.. all in under £500.. you will NOT have wasted an awful lot of money; you WILL be able to get an awful lot of use and more learning from it, and you will NOT be faced with an overwhelming amount of further decisions what kit or what settings would be 'best' to actually use the ruddy thing. Gets you started; gets you into the pursuit, and gives you best chance for least cost of taking it from there, PRETTY much anywhere you want to go...as you discover where you even CAN go with it! IF you want to!

Most capability, most versatility, least risk, least cost; most bang for your buck way to get started; In your local high-street, £500... job jobbed! In less time that it would likely take to explain but a fraction of the jargonese being debated here suggest why other ideas may or may not have any tentatively greater or lesser merit!!! Which is essentially answered by BETTER PHOTOGRAPHERS make better photo's NOT better cameras! So, grab a camera and get the 'fun' started! Whilst the sun is still shining! Debate here doesn't seem to be helping you make a decision, just gving you even more to chuck into the melting point t make any decision harder, and that generous budget really is't helping the issue any, opening up the field to include ever so much more to choose between!!

Remember, the old army adage, the only BAD decision is indecision..Keep-It-Simple-Silly!.. and get down your local Currys! with a strict £500 budget! Get you far further to actually taking photo's than all this potification, it really will!