New Apple or Upgrade PC, Advice needed please.

[neil_g]

andy played this game in the other thread in this section..

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=5221660&postcount=19

adjust PSU and cooling to suit on level of quietness (possibly add on maybe another 50-100 quid)

(and before you say thats an i5 not an i7, they pretty much perform the same)

 

[scott199]

Not now peeps.

As I said earlier, sticking i7, 32g RAM, this and that, they are just parts.

I spent a lot on an alien ware years ago, £1700 on basic tower, nothing else, and it was lighting fast compared to all my friends with better spec.

Having the parts in a shell, is not the same as a pro built system, even if they do have all the same numbers.

 

[neil_g]

Not now peeps.

As I said earlier, sticking i7, 32g RAM, this and that, they are just parts.

I spent a lot on an alien ware years ago, £1700 on basic tower, nothing else, and it was lighting fast compared to all my friends with better spec.

Having the parts in a shell, is not the same as a pro built system, even if they do have all the same numbers.

i7 is a waste of money, an i5 will be just as fast for 95% of tasks. thats coming from an i7 user. have a chat with andy, he's done some tests with i5 and i7 with hyperthreading enabled/disabled.

there will be no performance difference in a system assembled in bulk in a far east factory compared to one built yourself (like for like spec)

 

[scott199]

i7 is a waste of money, an i5 will be just as fast for 95% of tasks. thats coming from an i7 user. have a chat with andy, he's done some tests with i5 and i7 with hyperthreading enabled/disabled.

there will be no performance difference in a system assembled in bulk in a far east factory compared to one built yourself (like for like spec)

Sorry, i didnt mean i/you should use an i7 it was more a general thing.

I just mean, that simply sticking parts in a case, doesn't mean we/i am anywhere in the same league as apple or any other of the special build company's out their. (not the retails stuff in the shops)

And for me to think it, is just that simple is a bit degrading to professionals that do this for a living and have spent endless years learning it.

i am really sorry but i have to say, theirs a lot more that goes into a quick PC than just bolting parts in, and again everything has to married, The right type of ram, the right type of motherboard, the right processor and a list of bios settings that will dictate what does what at any given second.

Its like i hear people saying they have 6-8-12-32 gb RAM, its not just about the amount, its more to do with the speed of the ram, how its set-up to handle the work load.

This was never a debate about what's better.

Sorry for the rant, but i will never believe i have the knowledge or ability to build a comp the same as a company that has spent millions, if not billions on design and research.

Ok back to the topic, its not PC V apple, that's just about OS really and style or looks.

It has spiralled out of control, it was more, should i spend money upgrading an old system, but good or bite the bullet and go for a system designed for the graphics purpose that i intend to use it for as an apple is and if so would i notice anything from mine to the new one, not ever used apple i was/am in the dark.

 

[Raymond Lin]

You can if you want but it is not the same spec.

If you are going to build one with i5 then the budget will have to be cut proportional to the additional fee apple charge divided by 2, which is £160/2 so to build an i5 machine your budget is now £911.30.

Any takers?

 

[scott199]

The problem is, it can be done, i could do that, but i would have to cut corners left right and centre.

Does anyone really want to spend £1k on a high spec comp and then have cheap flimsy bits lying around your desk.

 

[scott199]

Bored today and did a quick sum in my head but tell me I am wrong but people say they can build the same spec for half the price?

27" TPS screen with 2550x1440 res
Intel i7 3.4Ghz
32Gb DDR3 1600 mhz Ram
nVidia GTX 680 2G
Apple Superdrive
Apple wireless keyboard and mouse

My iMac came to £1982.60. I would be amazed if someone can build something to the same spec, fully functioning machine, delivered to my door all set up for under £1k.

Add in a

PSU
Motherboard
cables

Make a machine that is small, compact, silent, with OS, and I HAVE TO have the Apple keyboard and mouse (my argument is that it is my way to interact with the machine so it is paramount, plus, if Apple can include it, it won't be fair if you use a £5 knock off that is built like fisher price plastic)

Do your best, you have a budget of £991.30.

i7/GTX 680/8G ram/1TB Fusion (or 128G SSD with 1TB 7200rpm HD).

(I added the RAM myself so fort his exercise, 8G ram machine would do)

Go!

we could solve and close this thread is seconds, sell me this for £800.

and we all win, well it solves the problem, i get that spec for half the price

 

[Studi0488]

andy played this game in the other thread in this section..

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=5221660&postcount=19

adjust PSU and cooling to suit on level of quietness (possibly add on maybe another 50-100 quid)

(and before you say thats an i5 not an i7, they pretty much perform the same)

And pretty much lost the argument, sure you can get a cheaper PC, but the costs are now not that far off, as proved.

 

[Raymond Lin]

The problem is, it can be done, i could do that, but i would have to cut corners left right and centre.

Does anyone really want to spend £1k on a high spec comp and then have cheap flimsy bits lying around your desk.

Go on, I don't mind you cutting corners, however there are things that you can't, use a nasty case if you want but you can't use an i5 and say it is an i7.

I.e. same parts, same resolution monitor panel, same keyboard and mice, same speed CPU, same speed ram, thunderbolt, legit OS.

I could even entertain the idea of 75%, so £1500 but get as close to £1k as you can.

 

[scott199]

all i have to do is copy my invoice

but in all honesty, even if i could do it all for that, (all i need to do is add monitor and graphics card/s but it wouldn't look the same, feel the same and i don't care how many times i say it, it wont run the same.

So in essence its a pointless debate, as i agree with you, the same spec can be built, but unless one of use is going to wipe our systems and root in apple OS or windows OS and then sit side by side and see which is quicker, the reality can never be proved..

If i get really bored and feel like spending hours and hours researching what components work well together, i might attempt it, but it would still only be theory.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I don't even mind they don't run the same, I just like to see the same spec in PC price. It's only because of comments from other people who claim they can do it for 50% of the price that made me curious. The reality that they can't. Not even close. What they can do is build a slower machine, with cheaper parts, with keyboard and mice that they already own, and the time they spend building, testing and installing the machine.

I would be curious to see how much a real world figure for the same parts really come to though.

 

[scott199]

ok lets try.

CPU: Intel Core i7 3820 3.60GHz @ 4.40GHz (clocked) Ivybridge CPU
- Motherboard: Gigabyte X79-UD3 Intel X79 (Socket 2011) DDR3 Motherboard
- RAM: Patriot Intel Extreme Masters 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3 PC3-12800C9 1600MHz
- Cooler: NZXT Havik 120 CPU Cooler--------------------£409 inc cables and all cables, thermal paste and such.

-GTX 680 2048MB GDDR5 PCI-Express Graphics Card-------£277

-128GB 2.5" SATA Solid State Hard Drive
-Seagate 2TB SATA 6Gb/s Hard Drive ---------------- --= £145

-Xigmatek Helios Micro-ATX Case - Black - Noise Dampened
- High Performance '80 Plus Bronze' Power Supply--------- = £74

- 10-Bit 27" Widescreen Professional Monitor, 2560x1440 = £299

- Microsoft Windows 8 64-Bit or 7 which ever = £80

- Laser Gaming Mouse and top rate keyboard = £70

TOTAL - = £1350 ish

Somewhere close, i could shave £200 off this by shopping around quite easy.

but it gets you somewhere close and nothing is basic cheap, 4.40GHz, cooling, super quite, i think thats everything, to be fair i have never tried to build a system in minutes, theirs prob something i have missed but hey :shrug:

But in theory, its a quick system

 

[Raymond Lin]

Thanks, I had to swap your £70 keyboard and mice combo to the apple one which is £120 together so the total comes to £1484.

Missing a DVD drive but that's like £20.
Missing SD card reader, esata or USB 3 speed which is £15.
Also 1 year (or 3 through HE) comprehensive parts and labour warranty.

So one can argue it is 25% saving, not 50%. I guess then you need decide how much the time to research and build is worth to you and your business.

 

[scott199]

Yeah i agree, if i really tried i could get that same build down to £1000 or £1100 at most, i didn't price match any of that just used sites i know.

Anyway, its not just about whats bolted in, its the years and years worth of BIOS settings that make the system.

 

[Flashman]

So one can argue it is 25% saving, not 50%. I guess then you need decide how much the time to research and build is worth to you and your business.

And then factor in how much more the iMac will still be worth when you want to sell it on in a couple of years time...

 

[Raymond Lin]

Ah, depreciation, my old £1400 2.9ghz core 2 duo iMac from 2009 still fetches £600 on eBay.

 

[arad85]

Dear God... There's so navel gazing here it's embarrassing. You can build an equivalent silent machine for much less - fact - whether you choose to believe that but claim it's not exactly the same machine because it doesn't come in the same case of has the same mouse/pad (which, by the way I think is yet another triumph of form over function) is by the by. It's a PC after all, and isn't difficult to build one.

The real problem is you still have to run the abomination that is OS-X on it, which I wouldn't do if you gave me the machine in the first place...

 

[Raymond Lin]

Dear God... There's so navel gazing here it's embarrassing. You can build an equivalent silent machine for much less - fact - whether you choose to believe that but claim it's not exactly the same machine because it doesn't come in the same case of has the same mouse/pad (which, by the way I think is yet another triumph of form over function) is by the by. It's a PC after all, and isn't difficult to build one.

The real problem is you still have to run the abomination that is OS-X on it, which I wouldn't do if you gave me the machine in the first place...

Less talk, more numbers. Lets see then, put windows on it if you want, I never said it has to be OSX. Not Linus though, not exactly adobe friendly is it.

Lets see if you can do the 50% challenge.

It has to be the apple keyboard and mouse, if not then take off £60 from the budget and not include any in your spec.

 

[Studi0488]

Dear God... There's so navel gazing here it's embarrassing. You can build an equivalent silent machine for much less - fact - whether you choose to believe that but claim it's not exactly the same machine because it doesn't come in the same case of has the same mouse/pad (which, by the way I think is yet another triumph of form over function) is by the by. It's a PC after all, and isn't difficult to build one.

The real problem is you still have to run the abomination that is OS-X on it, which I wouldn't do if you gave me the machine in the first place...

Hahaha so the cost argument has been destroyed in two posts, now your going for the OS, as if windows has a reputation for working....:nuts:

Fact is your a PC man, and I personally need a business machine thats built for the job, does it well and leaves me to get on with the business, not worry about the IT

This debate and that of crappy Nikon vs the great Canon will go on forever....

 

[scott199]

I knew it was a mistake putting those two words in the same post

:bonk:

Please its not really which is better, its more, is it better to spend £600 and have a really good 18 month old PC, or put some more pennies in the pot and get an new IMAC. (if I do it will be baseline ish, not 2k model )

This is going to be mine and not the family, so just photo stuff, and the odd bit if work.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Dear God... There's so navel gazing here it's embarrassing. You can build an equivalent silent machine for much less - fact - whether you choose to believe that but claim it's not exactly the same machine because it doesn't come in the same case of has the same mouse/pad

Come on Andy, lets see the facts. You have to at least MATCH the spec.

i7 3.4Ghz
8G Ram DDR3
GTX 680 2G
DVD/RW
Motherboard
PSU
27" 10 bit IPS 2550x1440 res monitor
Speakers (iMac has speakers!) and mic
It has 4 USB 3 ports
2 Thunderbolt ports
1 Optical Out
Webcam
Windows 7 (or 8, your choice). Not an upgrade Licence btw.
Other hardware features like built in wifi, bluetooth.
You will need a case too, it is no good having it mounted on a piece of 2x4.

Let's see, wack it in any case, no keyboard and mouse, the floor is yours.

Please show me Andy, show me that fact then I will believe you.


You have £931.30.

Go!

 

[imagine]

Intel Core i7-3770 3.4Ghz Windows 8 64bit Not Incuded 8GB 2TB + 32GB mSATA SSD 1GB Nvidia GeForce GT 640 Blu-Ray £779
£699 D00X8513
From dmxdimension.com - dell deals. So add a nice monitor and you have a new system with a warranty. Alternatively just add the monitors to the system you have and buy a new base unit if it ever breaks down.

 

[Raymond Lin]

^^^ not the same spec, the GFX is not the same.

The GT 640 is a £60 graphic card.
The GTX 680 is a £400 graphic card.

For those who wonder why...Adobe has been slowly moving more and more work that was done in CPU to GPU.

http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/photoshop-cs6-gpu-faq.html

No SSD
And it is already £699 with no screen?

This is the cheapest 27" in ebuyer.

http://www.ebuyer.com/397018-asus-pb278q-27-led-lcd-hdmi-monitor-pb278q

This is the cheapest one I could find that I would consider that matches the Apple one.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-019-HO&groupid=17&catid=1120&subcat=

 

[imagine]

32GB mSATA SSD is actually a SSD. Also I didn't think that the new iMacs had a DVD.

 

[Raymond Lin]

32GB mSATA SSD is actually a SSD. Also I didn't think that the new iMacs had a DVD.

I bought it separate (Apple tax and all lol), and included with the cost for this exercise, as shown in my receipt.

And 32G isn't 128G SSD, you are 96G short

 

[arad85]

You have £931.30.

I can do it, I just CBA

Happy New Year.....

 

[arad85]

I just mean, that simply sticking parts in a case, doesn't mean we/i am anywhere in the same league as apple or any other of the special build company's out their. (not the retails stuff in the shops)

Well... yes it is these days. It's all about system buildng.

And for me to think it, is just that simple is a bit degrading to professionals that do this for a living and have spent endless years learning it.

Well, my day job is building high spec, low cost set-top boxes.

i am really sorry but i have to say, theirs a lot more that goes into a quick PC than just bolting parts in, and again everything has to married, The right type of ram, the right type of motherboard, the right processor and a list of bios settings that will dictate what does what at any given second.

Meh.. Not really. Even auntie Maud could build a PC these days....

Its like i hear people saying they have 6-8-12-32 gb RAM, its not just about the amount, its more to do with the speed of the ram, how its set-up to handle the work load.

Umm.. No, not really. PCs are quite simple. The CPU is capable of dealing with data hundreds of times quicker than any memory system is capable of delivering it. Whether you have a strobe line that is 8 clocks or 9 is pretty immaterial in the grand scheme of things.

Sorry for the rant, but i will never believe i have the knowledge or ability to build a comp the same as a company that has spent millions, if not billions on design and research.

Well, I do. I can't put it in as sexy a case, but I fully understand how to build a computer that is 99.99% the same as an Apple or Dell (I just don't have access to all the parts).

Ok back to the topic, its not PC V apple, that's just about OS really and style or looks.

Yup. The underlying machine is exactly the same....

 

[Raymond Lin]

I can do it, I just CBA

Happy New Year.....

I say put your money where your mouth is, otherwise it is just hot air and bull turd Andy!

Happy New Year!

 

[tfboy]

- 10-Bit 27" Widescreen Professional Monitor, 2560x1440 = £299

Where out of interest?

 

[Pookeyhead]

So fast forward to last year, the drives died and cost me a fortune to recover the data,

£1700 on a PC with drives in RAID0 and no back up? :bang:

Whichever you chose... I hope you have a better attitude to storage and back up now.

 

[scott199]

£1700 on a PC with drives in RAID0 and no back up? :bang:

Whichever you chose... I hope you have a better attitude to storage and back up now.

Oh yes, the idea was to put a couple of drives on the spare slots for back up but just never got round to actually doing it :bonk:

Not something I will forget again ins hurry.

 

[Studi0488]

Oh yes, the idea was to put a couple of drives on the spare slots for back up but just never got round to actually doing it :bonk:

Not something I will forget again ins hurry.

Never ever use the same machine to backup to, the same building is bad enough, offsite, best option every time.

God forbid, a lighting strike, theft, fire, and your backup is useless.

 

[Chappers]

Scott

have you decided what to do over the PC.

It seems to me the general opinion is to keep the PC , upgrade if you need to and buy an extra screen. An iMac would be nice but as I said I can't see the advantage over the system you have already

 

[Pookeyhead]

Never ever use the same machine to backup to, the same building is bad enough, offsite, best option every time.

God forbid, a lighting strike, theft, fire, and your backup is useless.

Yup!

I have a server in the house, and that mirrors to a second server in the garage... which is separated physically from the house.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Never ever use the same machine to backup to, the same building is bad enough, offsite, best option every time.

God forbid, a lighting strike, theft, fire, and your backup is useless.

I back mine up to a Drobo, which itself has protection against drive failure.

Also signed up to Crashplan on Black Friday, £10 for unlimited, 10 PC.

Backed up 2TB so far.

 

[neil_g]

And pretty much lost the argument, sure you can get a cheaper PC, but the costs are now not that far off, as proved.

dont see how to be honest.

Sorry, i didnt mean i/you should use an i7 it was more a general thing.

I just mean, that simply sticking parts in a case, doesn't mean we/i am anywhere in the same league as apple or any other of the special build company's out their. (not the retails stuff in the shops)

And for me to think it, is just that simple is a bit degrading to professionals that do this for a living and have spent endless years learning it.

i am really sorry but i have to say, theirs a lot more that goes into a quick PC than just bolting parts in, and again everything has to married, The right type of ram, the right type of motherboard, the right processor and a list of bios settings that will dictate what does what at any given second.

Its like i hear people saying they have 6-8-12-32 gb RAM, its not just about the amount, its more to do with the speed of the ram, how its set-up to handle the work load.

This was never a debate about what's better.

Sorry for the rant, but i will never believe i have the knowledge or ability to build a comp the same as a company that has spent millions, if not billions on design and research.

Ok back to the topic, its not PC V apple, that's just about OS really and style or looks.

It has spiralled out of control, it was more, should i spend money upgrading an old system, but good or bite the bullet and go for a system designed for the graphics purpose that i intend to use it for as an apple is and if so would i notice anything from mine to the new one, not ever used apple i was/am in the dark.

not really, as andy has already said any monkey can build a PC. its easy enough to match memory and processor types and speeds to motherboards.

if you think the massive foxconn factories that build the mac kit for example are anything beyond minimum wage, minimum wage robots then youd be mistaken

It has to be the apple keyboard and mouse, if not then take off £60 from the budget and not include any in your spec.

why would you want to spec a PC with a mac keyboard? half the keys are wrong..

does it well and leaves me to get on with the business, not worry about the IT

if only, ive spent more time over the last 6-8 months messing around with lion/mountain lion issues than anything else.

 

[scott199]

Never ever use the same machine to backup to, the same building is bad enough, offsite, best option every time.

God forbid, a lighting strike, theft, fire, and your backup is useless.

Yes i know now mate, to be honest never really had that much to worry about, but now a days i have a couple of 2tb back-ups and also most of my system back-ups i sneak on our work online sever

Scott

have you decided what to do over the PC.

It seems to me the general opinion is to keep the PC , upgrade if you need to and buy an extra screen. An iMac would be nice but as I said I can't see the advantage over the system you have already

To be honest, this thread has got so far off topic, im no wiser now than i was when i asked,

out of the 65 odd posts, i get the downside to apple is they cant be upgraded or not without hassle.

I dont know, i just think it gets to a point where spending money constantly upgrading a system, well in my case its no longer my alienware, just the case and graphics card left now.

It was more as i know nothing about apple and i know most company's/schools/collages and so on prefer them for graphics and such, their must be something their im missing, i mean schools spend thousands building graphic suits and filling them with apple's, if their just the same as a PC why do they spend thousands more than they need to (and before people say, because they can,most schools are nearly private now, well they are here)

and if their not a lot different, why do nearly all the photgraphers i see have macbooks ??

Just feel their must be a reason and i dont know what it is.

 

[Raymond Lin]

if their just the same as a PC why do they spend thousands more than they need to (and before people say, because they can,most schools are nearly private now, well they are here)

and if their not a lot different, why do nearly all the photgraphers i see have macbooks ??

Just feel their must be a reason and i dont know what it is.

Schools gets discount on Apple products.

Photographers have MacBooks...well, it's lighter (is there a better and lighter built MBP out there?).

Like it or not, Apple stuff on general do just tend to work together.

Apple provide excellent customer support. You can argue this all you like but it is not the same as taking it to PC World. For a lot of people, people who are not PC Savvy since not everyone is, that is invaluable.

It is also cool looking. People will pay that bit more for that, think Mulberry handbags, Jimmy Choo Shoes etc

So that 25% saving, for the cool factor, for the all in one design solution, less space, silent machine, OSX eco system and customer support.

Is it worth it to you?

 

[neil_g]

It was more as i know nothing about apple and i know most company's/schools/collages and so on prefer them for graphics and such, their must be something their im missing, i mean schools spend thousands building graphic suits and filling them with apple's, if their just the same as a PC why do they spend thousands more than they need to (and before people say, because they can,most schools are nearly private now, well they are here)

and if their not a lot different, why do nearly all the photgraphers i see have macbooks ??

Just feel their must be a reason and i dont know what it is.

honestly? we only have macs in our design dept for legacy (designers are trained on mac despite PC versions of most software being available) and political reasons. theyre an arse ache to manage and cost a small fortune per user. but if we took them out we'd have a rebelion on our hands.

why do some photographers have macbooks? personal preference most likely. i know some of the sports photographers on here run dell latitudes (dell support, if you pay extra like applecare is also exceptional) which are same sort of spec and price bracket.

 

[Raymond Lin]

not really, as andy has already said any monkey can build a PC. its easy enough to match memory and processor types and speeds to motherboards.

Was in PC World or Currys getting a SatNav or something and some woman can't even buy the correct ink cartridge for her printer. What make you think the average joe can build a PC. Most people get scared when an electronic component is opened. Plus you forgot aspects such as:

1 - research, knowing what socket to match what motherboard. We are not born with this knowledge, it takes research and reading and constant update of knowing what is out there, what is going to come out and what is going to be obsolete. Buying an AMD CPU for an Intel motherboard is never going to work is it? But who knew? A lot of people don't even know you can't put Canon lenses on Nikon and vice versa. (lets not going into the adaptor ring debate).

2 - Even if someone online spec you the complete computer, with cables and stuff so you have every part. Little things like de-static yourself, knowing the steps to put it together is not the same for every case and every computer.

3 - Then there is the software, which is a whole other kettle of fish. Loads of people can't even keep a working, virus free machines. What make you think they can install windows?

why would you want to spec a PC with a mac keyboard? half the keys are wrong..

I can map it

if only, ive spent more time over the last 6-8 months messing around with lion/mountain lion issues than anything else.

That's because you are a geek at heart