New convert to film but help required...

Digital_Clarity

Digital_Clarity

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Dave
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Hello everyone. As a Canon digital type I was hoping you could impart some of your wisdom to a film newbie :)
I've recently been given a Canon 50E and I have a 50mm EF f1.4 on it's way. As a massive fan of black & white portrature and candids, film grain and vintage photography you can imagine my excitement about getting started with my new toys :love: Anyway after spending the last few days online reading various pages on here and elsewhere I still have some questions.

Developing expense is potentially a problem so I'm thinking about setting up a B/W negative processing kit as described here. Should this influence what film I buy? I would assume B&W film such as this? Unless I should avoid the C41 type? I'll be scanning the negs in on a proper negative scanner.
I quite like the vintage and grainy look, so would it be better stepping up to 1600 or should I stick with the 400?

Thanks in advance. Hopefully I'll be able to post my first roll on here in the near future (y)
 
C41 is a process that's mainly used for colour print films, so unless you're getting the film developed on the high street (nothing wrong with that tbh!) you'd be better with "proper" B&W film.

If you want to use Fuji Black and White, I'd heartily recommend Neopan 100 Acros - just ran a roll of it and it's a lovely smooth grained film. For A more grainy effect, try the lford HP5+ 400 initially, and if it's not grainey enough, you can always expose it as 800, then push the processing (leave it in the developer longer, generally makes the neg's darker to compensate for the extra stop of speed, but allows the grain crystals to grow a bit larger, hence more grainey effect)

So, for nice grainey effects with the kit I described in the link, try Ilford HP5+ or maybe Tri-X 400 from kodak.
 
A more grainy effect, try the lford HP5+ 400 initially, and if it's not grainey enough, you can always expose it as 800, then push the processing (leave it in the developer longer, generally makes the neg's darker to compensate for the extra stop of speed, but allows the grain crystals to grow a bit larger, hence more grainey effect)
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Ah ok, I didn't realised the relationship between ASA 400/800 was 1 stop. Does that go for 200/400 and 800/1600 etc?
Can I develop C41 or non-C41 at home assuming it's B&W film?
 
You CAN develop C41 but it's (compared to B&W) nasty messy smelly process which involves using the chemicals at a relatively high temperature, and keeping very accurately to that temperature. I would (indeed I DID) stick to normal black and white until I was pretty much able to process it on autopilot. To be honest, It's a waste to process C41 at home just for chromagenic black and white - it's really a colour processing setup.

The kits of chemicals are around £25 for enough to process maybe 25 rolls of film, but in my case, It took probably half the first kit to get my process dialed in and the colours looking reasonably natural.

Only reason I started with processing colour at all was a couple of months ago, this forums photography competition had a subject of cross-processing. To do this properly (unlike most of the entrants who did it all in photoshop) I needed to process E6 colour slide in C41 chemicals or C41 film in E6 chemicals... So - I had to buy the 2 colour chemicals kits and give it a go. I started by processing C41 film in C41, got the timings etc right on that, then went over to E6 in E6, learned that, and only finally got around to processing e6 slide in C41 chemicals for the cross processing effect.

In short if the film says C41 on it, I'd leave it to the minilabs, if it says E6 i'd send it to a professional lab for processing properly, and if it's normal black and white, DIY all the way!
 
Oh yeah - I forgot - double the ISO = 1 extra stop, yep. So, you could shoot HP5+ (nominally 400 iso) at a ISO of 1600 if your camera allows you to set the ISO manually, and then process the film "PUSHED 2 STOPS" and get a properly exposed, but pretty grainey negative.

Having said that, I'd recommend running your first couple of films at the rated ISO first, just to get a feel for it.
 
Digital_Clarity said:
Hello everyone. As a Canon digital type I was hoping you could impart some of your wisdom to a film newbie :)
I've recently been given a Canon 50E and I have a 50mm EF f1.4 on it's way. As a massive fan of black & white portrature and candids, film grain and vintage photography you can imagine my excitement about getting started with my new toys :love: Anyway after spending the last few days online reading various pages on here and elsewhere I still have some questions.

Developing expense is potentially a problem so I'm thinking about setting up a B/W negative processing kit as described here. Should this influence what film I buy? I would assume B&W film such as this? Unless I should avoid the C41 type? I'll be scanning the negs in on a proper negative scanner.
I quite like the vintage and grainy look, so would it be better stepping up to 1600 or should I stick with the 400?

Thanks in advance. Hopefully I'll be able to post my first roll on here in the near future (y)
Click to expand...

As already stated, you should avoid the C41 type B&W films (Kodak BW400CN, Fuji Neopan 400CN & Ilford XP-2) unless you are getting a mini-lab to develop them.

To develop yourself with the 'kit' you have shown will require standard B&W films such as Kodak Tri-X, Plus-X, T-Max, Ilford FP-4, HP-5, Delta or Fuji Neopan (NOT the 'CN' version you listed). There are others but these are the most popular ones.

For a more 'grainy' look you will need a high speed film (Ilford Delta3200 or T-MaxP3200) or push a 400 ISO one like Tri-X to around 1600.
Again, as already mentioned, I'd personally recommend a few films at 'normal' EI ratings to get the hang of things and see what the grain is like at this ISO, you may be happy with this.

Give a couple of rolls of Tri-X a go and see how you get on with it, it's a classic B&W film with a fairly pronounced grain structure.


EDIT:

For a changing bag i can thoroughly recommend one of THESE

 
Many thanks to BigYin, footman and NinetyEight! I could spend all week reading around and still end up buying the wrong film/equipment so thanks for the suggestions.
I'll definitely take your advice and run the first 2 films as they are and get them processed professionally (besides I bought a 1 colour and 1 B&W C41 type film a few days ago!). I'll definitely try the Tri-X film next time.
NinetyEight, could you explain what as EI rating is please? Not sure on the acronym.
 
Well if I was trying B/W film (being a digital user) would take the easy, cheap, way first:- a big Tesco will develope C41 B/W film and probably scan it to a CD all for about £2.......and if they are not busy, will do it why you shop.
 
Really? That's incredible, I didn't think I could get the negatives processed or get them scanned to CD for less than a fiver. Well I'll definitely be doing that for the first few but I know my curiosity will get the better of me eventually ;)
 
Definitely shoot the colour film and the C41 B&W film and drop 'em in at tesco's / asda for processing. If you're hapy with what they do, fine. If you start pushing/pulling films then expect the operator to greet your out of the ordinary processing request with "Uhhh???".

That's one of the reasons I like processing my own film - that and the sheer satisfaction of doing as much as you possibly can yourself, of course. Sometimes it's not about the money... If I wanted cheap shots i'd use the digital camera, after all! Of course, a fair bit of my film shooting is on MF, and there's no real high street alternative for that - it's send it away and pay through the nose - not what you want if you're shooting panoramic 6x12cm shots at 6 to a roll on 120 film - with my keeper rate, I'm lucky to have 2 pictures per roll, and paying £15 a roll just isn't on...
 
Digital_Clarity said:
Really? That's incredible, I didn't think I could get the negatives processed or get them scanned to CD for less than a fiver. Well I'll definitely be doing that for the first few but I know my curiosity will get the better of me eventually ;)
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Well I'm so pleased with Tesco dev and sharpened low scans to a CD (for my colour negs) I hardly use my Epson scanner, and now only use it if I want to crop and avoid pixel breakup from a low Tesco scan.
 
For development I would use one of the following services for 'optimum' quality and a good price:

  • B&W - Ilford Lab, I have never shot any B&W but everyone says their really good and looking at the prices it can't be bad! Plus they will develop and print C41 B&W as well like XP2 or BW400CN. Another interesting service is that they will develop colour neg but print them on B&W paper. http://www.ilfordlab.com/page/57/Black-and-White-Prints-from-Film.htm
  • For C-41 colour neg, I would use club 35, I just used them for the first time and I was amazed, posted the film on Tuesday to them using the freepost address, Thursday what lands on the mat? Perfect prints, 6x4" and only £6.05 for a 36 exposure film including postage! http://www.club35.co.uk/
  • For E-6 transparencies/slides, I would use Peak Imaging. Their a Pro Lab but their prices are very competitive, £5.90 plus £1.47 postage for a 36 exposure film with mounts. Like Club 35, their very quick as well, only 2 -4 days. The quality of the slides is excellent as well.http://www.peak-imaging.com/



Just my personal best places, hope this helps.
 
Samuel

I second your opinion about Club 35.

I just checked the prices on Peak Processing - the 35mm transperency prices listed are 17.59. Am I reading something wrong

Ujjwal
 
That price is for just the slides in mounts - i.e no prints.
​

I don't see the point of getting a complete set of prints with slides, you might as well shoot colour print. I just might sometimes get some of the good slides printed. Although I have not got one yet, I am going to get some Cibiachrome/Ilfochrome prints of some of my best slides; their expensive but well worth it apparently for the sheer quality.
 
Ah, thanks Rob &Samuel. I was looking at the wrong stuff ( not the first time...lol)

So peak is cheaper in E6 and Club 35 in C41. So Peak gets my E6 from now on.....

( Actually, since I pick up my prints from Club 35, I save on the postage)...
 
Peak have been doing very good E-6 for ages...they were the 'go-to' guys back in the 90's when I was still shooting film professionally...
 
I've used Peak twice so far and both times the quality has been exceptional and they are only slightly more expensive than Fuji Lab or (never ever using again...) Jessops (Their E-6 service is a sham completely, only £6.00 with mounts but takes up to 2 weeks, currently waiting for one from them that I gave them 3 WEEKS AGO. I only used them as I accidently lost the processing mailer for my Fuji Sensia)
 
Digital_Clarity said:
Many thanks to BigYin, footman and NinetyEight! I could spend all week reading around and still end up buying the wrong film/equipment so thanks for the suggestions.
I'll definitely take your advice and run the first 2 films as they are and get them processed professionally (besides I bought a 1 colour and 1 B&W C41 type film a few days ago!). I'll definitely try the Tri-X film next time.
NinetyEight, could you explain what as EI rating is please? Not sure on the acronym.
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Yeah, sorry, that just slipped out! - It stands for Exposure Index and basically means the rating that you have applied to the actual film.
i.e. if you push a film to ISO800 this becomes it's EI even though the film is still technically an ISO400 rating.

The ISO system is a very rigid set of standards so you can't technically use the 'ISO' to describe an adjusted exposure index of a film because according to the ISO standards that film will always be a certain ISO rating.


You could call it splitting hairs! :)

HERE is a Kodak pdf file that explains it a bit, but I wouldn't worry too much.
 
s162216, I'll keep a note of those places/links in case I need developing done professionally but in my case (for now) I'll have to stick with the cheap options of Tesco and home developing!

NinetyEight, thanks for the clarification on EI ratings. I definitely will have a look at that document too, I always like to read and understand as much as possible about what I'm doing!

I'm just been having a nosey around Ebay for cheap bits of second hand kit. Bidding on this, is it likely to jump up to £10 or so at the last minute?

Whilst we're on the subject of developing, what do you store your diluted developing solution/stop bath in? I've heard drinks bottles are a bad idea?
 
I bought a pack of 1 litre bottles like this. They're inert plastic, and just soft enough to be able to squeeze the air out and keep the chem's fresh. Ideally they'd be black and light-tight as well, but I keep everything in a dark cupboard anyway, so they've been fine
 
Oxidisation the biggest problem...try inflating a plastic-bag inside the bottle so that there's no direct air-contact with the chemistry...
Tis what I used to do...
 
Thanks for the advice on keeping the chemicals fresh, it's not something I would have thought of until it ruined a roll of film!
How can you tell when they've 'gone off' or oxidised anyway? Is there a recommended maximum for the amount of times the developer solution can be used?

(Film still not yet delivered! :( )
 
I only use 'one-shot' liquid developers these days (Ilford Ilfosol 3 & Kodak T-Max) so storing mixed solutions is not an issue as I only mix what I need for a film at a time. For two films I'll mix 600ml in one go and use 300ml per film. (my tank recommends 290ml but the maths is easier for 300!)

I mix 1 litre of stop-bath (Ilford Ilfostop) and keep it in an air-tight bottle, kept in the garage (No window and integral with the house), so it's usually pretty dark and doesn't get too warm.
This will start to turn purple when it's exhausted, but I only use 300ml for a single film and it then gets diluted back with the remainder of the litre so this should last for a couple of months or so, hopefully.

I do the same with fixer (Kept in a 1 litre bottle) but this can be tested with a small piece of exposed film leader to test it's capabilities. Fixer is only recommended for fixing a certain number of films so keep a record of how many you've fixed with it and adjust times if necessary.

Oxidization is not so much as a problem with stop & fix, as far as I know, it's developer that goes off quicker once mixed to working strength.

You can always fix for a bit longer if it gets a bit 'weak' but developer must be in good shape for reliable and consistent results.

All the manufacturers give guidance for storage times but it depends on air/temp/light etc. so take them with a pinch of salt.
 
Digital_Clarity said:
What's the advantage of using the single use fluid?

I'm very tempted to get stuck into ebay now and order some kit :)
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I find the concentrated liquid developer keeps well in the sealed bottle and you only mix up what you want at the time. With the powders (ID-11/D-76 etc.) you have to mix up about a gallon of 'stock solution' at a time and this can go off quicker if it's not used, especially if it's not in an air tight container.
Having said that, the powders can be a bit cheaper, so it all depends on how much you are going to use.

Just my findings and experience...
 
one advantage of the powdered ones, is that if you're buying 'em mail order, they can go via royal mail - the liquid one's need to be sent via courier, due to RM's rules on transporting liquids in parcels. May only be a couple of quid, but every little counts ;)
 
Digital_Clarity said:
What's the advantage of using the single use fluid?

I'm very tempted to get stuck into ebay now and order some kit :)
Click to expand...


Also not mentioned, the one shot developers seem to me to be more economical.
I've only used ID-11 of the powdered developers, but I noticed that although you get a good bit of solution, the mixing ratio is higher.
A small patterson tank needs 500ml of solution.
The MDC tells us that 120 FP4 takes 5 mins to develop with ilfosol 3 @ 1-14, so thats 35ml of ilfosol in 465ml of water.
ID-11 at a similar development time of 6.5 mins is a stock mix, that means if you mix a litre of ID-11, 500ml goes straight in the tank with no further dilution.
So your litre of ID-11 will develop 2 tanks, 1 litre of ilfosol 3 will develop 28 tanks.
In my hand right now I have a 500ml bottle of ilfosol 3 = £6.50, and a 1 litre box of ID-11 = £4.99

You can dillute ID-11 further, the development just takes longer, but it aint never gonna get anywhere near the economy of one shots.
 
joxby said:
You can dillute ID-11 further, the development just takes longer, but it aint never gonna get anywhere near the economy of one shots.
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You'll also get profoundly bored waiting for your 2 stop pushed HP5+ to develop in ID-11 1+3 for over half a hour :LOL:
 
TheBigYin said:
You'll also get profoundly bored waiting for your 2 stop pushed HP5+ to develop in ID-11 1+3 for over half a hour :LOL:
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yus, dull as ditch water, still you can do some ironing or something..:LOL:

I don't mind the wait really, but 2 TANKS ???..:shake:

I can't get over that, if ID-11 wasn't so nice, I'd never use it..
 
I used ID-11 / D-76 at 1:3 all the time...and yes it was boring as hell, but oh, what lovely negs...
 
Well - I started back into processing B&W at home using ID11 (thanks to the kind donation of a tank and chemicals by a certain person who will remain Joxby ;) ) and at first found it really frustrating how long it was taking - hey - I was eager to see if I'd got it right! But after a couple of rolls I sort of get used to it. And, yes - the Neg's are lovely. And yes, I'm probably going to keep on using it off and on, but it's nice to have a bottle of the concentrated liguid stuff on hand, in case I want to process something like HP5+ at +2 stops :LOL:
 
Digital_Clarity said:
Really? That's incredible, I didn't think I could get the negatives processed or get them scanned to CD for less than a fiver. Well I'll definitely be doing that for the first few but I know my curiosity will get the better of me eventually ;)
Click to expand...

This is what I do. I use Kodak BW400 professional C41 film. This is 400 ISO B&W film that works on the C41 process. It gives good results and costs £1.96 processed then scanned. My local Tesco's staff keep cutting corners and not making sure that everything is clean and they wear gloves so I have to return last time for the negs to be scanned again. Thing is that you do end up with the negs so you can then develop prints from them just as you would yourself and as it costs about £1 a roll to develop C41 and Tescos charge £1 a roll its much easier for them to do it. I am going to try proper B&W when my studio is finished as I am making the changing room totally light tight to use as a dark room :)
 
When I have my processing kit set up [eventually!] I'll have to decide how I want to develop them before I buy the film wont I? Either C41 to have them done at Tescos or something like Tri-x if I want to develop them myself? Please correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I understand it!

If anyone has any old kit they'd like to sell on (or if Joxby has any more kind donations to offer!) please let me know :)
 
David, You need to put an advert in Wanted. Technically the above post is trading o/s of the correct forum. :rules:
 
TheBigYin said:
one advantage of the powdered ones, is that if you're buying 'em mail order, they can go via royal mail - the liquid one's need to be sent via courier, due to RM's rules on transporting liquids in parcels. May only be a couple of quid, but every little counts ;)
Click to expand...

Better tell that to the suppliers then - Out of three that I've ordered from recently only one used a courier, the other two sent by RM first class and RM Parcelforce (parcel force may be ok?)
Can't say the courier one was any more expensive though (FedEx)
 
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