Nikon D800 & Canon 70D LiveView sample test

[n0chex]

Ok I am trying to convince myself that I need a Nikon D800 so I thought the best way was to go and try one out. Most the shots I will be taking is landscape on a tripod and I also wanted something to compare with so I thought a Canon 70D which reading was good in live view as the Canon 6D was not available to test and would have been better both being full frame but pixel peeping the 70D come up well IMHO.

Both tests was carried out on a tripod with both cameras using the 50mm 1.4 Nikon and the 50mm 1.4 Canon both set at 1/5 Sec @F/8.0, ISO 100.

Both RAW files are available below and both are straight out the camera NO processing done and I think the canons image is great considering the Nikon sensor size and pixel count.

Canons Raw File : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14754197/Canon 70D.CR2
Nikons Raw File : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14754197/Nikon D800.NEF
Sony Raw File: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14754197/Sony 7R.ARW

 

[lightshipman]

Images will not open, Ive even tried NX2 View, definately haven't got a Canon raw file editor.

 

[n0chex]

I use Lightroom or Photoshop.

 

[simonkit]

Just out of interest Andrew what were you trying to determine with the test?

Simon

 

[Steve-T]

I can't open either, however as a D800 owner who loves the camera I can say that the live view on the D800 is one of its big let downs.
Some say its so bad you canot focus correctly with it, I would dispute that and say that if you dont fully zoom in it is possible to use it for focusing but Canon live views are far far superior.

 

[simonkit]

I can't open either, however as a D800 owner who loves the camera I can say that the live view on the D800 is one of its big let downs.
Some say its so bad you canot focus correctly with it, I would dispute that and say that if you dont fully zoom in it is possible to use it for focusing but Canon live views are far far superior.

I guess it depends what you're using it for, I use it all the time for landscape work and find it works well.. main issues are in very low light but that's the same for most cameras, I think the D600 has the most issues with Live View in the Nikon line up?

Simon

 

[n0chex]

If you can't open the files I can only suggest that you have no support on your computer and I was looking at image quality not functionality between the 2 cameras.

 

[simonkit]

If you can't open the files I can only suggest that you have no support on your computer and I was looking at image quality not functionality between the 2 cameras.

From my perspective the D800 is THE camera for landscape photography, it has weaknesses in other areas (FPS etc) but it really does make a terrific landscape camera. Having said this it does also depend on how you'll use the images you shoot as the amazing detail it captures won't really be noticeable on web display images or small prints, just something to consider. It does however excel in dynamic range, relatively speaking, still surprises me just how much detail can be recovered from deep shadows without generating any significant noise

Simon

 

[n0chex]

I found the 3.2" screen on the Nikon D800 adequate but like you said when fully zoomed in at maximum magnification on the live view it just did not look right but did like the 4:3 format screen on the Nikon to the Canons 16:9 aspect ratio.

 

[simonkit]

I found the 3.2" screen on the Nikon D800 adequate but like you said when fully zoomed in at maximum magnification on the live view it just did not look right but did like the 4:3 format screen on the Nikon to the Canons 16:9 aspect ratio.

Yes, full zoom on the D800 Live View is poor, my previous Pentax K5 was much better. This definitely would be problematic if you wanted to use it for manual focus.. auto-focusing in Live View is very accurate though

 

[Ivan S]

I just had a look, it seems the Canon 70D is the winner to me, it seems to have more contrast and detail but slightly noisier than the Nikon when really pixel peeping
The Nikon

The Canon

 

[n0chex]

I was surprised by the results also , on paper the D800 images should be noticeable more detailed but I also think the Canon 70D wins hands down.

If you put the D800 images in PS and altered the sharpness with adjusting the highlights and shadows you could get it much better but straight out the camera the results surprised me.

I like to look at the contrast and detail in the bricks as below of the 70D.

 

[Ivan S]

The thing is at 100 iso both are easily good enough, with the 70D even looking to have the edge slightly, but I guess that would change in everyday use and in higher iso's the Nikon should come out the winner easily

 

[Steve-T]

I can't open either, however as a D800 owner who loves the camera I can say that the live view on the D800 is one of its big let downs.
Some say its so bad you canot focus correctly with it, I would dispute that and say that if you dont fully zoom in it is possible to use it for focusing but Canon live views are far far superior.

I guess it depends what you're using it for, I use it all the time for landscape work and find it works well.. main issues are in very low light but that's the same for most cameras, I think the D600 has the most issues with Live View in the Nikon line up?

Simon

Yes, full zoom on the D800 Live View is poor, my previous Pentax K5 was much better. This definitely would be problematic if you wanted to use it for manual focus.. auto-focusing in Live View is very accurate though

Yes well that was my point, I use mine mainly for landscape and I do manually focus most of the time. When focussing at full zoom which is what you really need when checking distance, then it is almost unuseable, so much so that I wonder why Nikon even bothered with including that great a magnification. Pulling back one click from max zoom is a bit better but not great.

Also whilst on the subject, another issue with the D800 is hot pixels on long exposures. Anything over 60 seconds is going to suffer badly unless using LE Noise reduction, but this doubles the time required for each exposure which I find a major headache when doing multiple long exposures in rapidly changing lightng conditions.

 

[Steve-T]

Having said all the above, the D00 is a great camera which am very happy with, I just hope they improve the live view for the D801

 

[Pookeyhead]

The D800 file has a much wider view of the scene, so the objects and details in it are much smaller than they are represented in the 70D files.

You used a 50 for both images, when one is a crop sensor camera and one isn't. To look at the same objects and details at the same magnification they are rendered by the 70D, you have to magnify the D800's version, thus losing any advantage you gained from the full frame sensor.

Flawed test. Do it again with a 35mm on the 70D and you'll see. I'm surprised no one has noticed this yet actually... I know it's Sunday morning... but... Wakey Wakey!!

All things being equal, the D800 will be demonstrably sharper.

 

[Ivan S]

The D800 file has a much wider view of the scene, so the objects and details in it are much smaller than they are represented in the 70D files.

You used a 50 for both images, when one is a crop sensor camera and one isn't. To look at the same objects and details at the same magnification they are rendered by the 70D, you have to magnify the D800's version, thus losing any advantage you gained from the full frame sensor.

Flawed test. Do it again with a 35mm on the 70D and you'll see. I'm surprised no one has noticed this yet actually... I know it's Sunday morning... but... Wakey Wakey!!

All things being equal, the D800 will be demonstrably sharper.

But is that all not negated by the larger sensor of the D800, the way I understood it is the actual focal length does not change but you just get a cropped image from the 70D where the lager sensor of D800 makes up the rest of the image?

So if you actually crop the D800 image to the same everything is equal?

 

[HoppyUK]

The D800 file has a much wider view of the scene, so the objects and details in it are much smaller than they are represented in the 70D files.

You used a 50 for both images, when one is a crop sensor camera and one isn't. To look at the same objects and details at the same magnification they are rendered by the 70D, you have to magnify the D800's version, thus losing any advantage you gained from the full frame sensor.

Flawed test. Do it again with a 35mm on the 70D and you'll see. I'm surprised no one has noticed this yet actually... I know it's Sunday morning... but... Wakey Wakey!!

All things being equal, the D800 will be demonstrably sharper.

Totally.

 

[Pookeyhead]

But is that all not negated by the larger sensor of the D800

No.. because in order to get the objects the same size, you have to crop into the D800 images... in simple terms, it's like using the D800 in DX mode.

, the way I understood it is the actual focal length does not change but you just get a cropped image from the 70D where the lager sensor of D800 makes up the rest of the image?

So if you actually crop the D800 image to the same everything is equal?

No. Incorrect. Focal length does not change, as that is a physical property of the lens, but the effective magnification is the product of focal length and sensor size. To get the objects in the scene to be the same magnification as the 70D, you need to crop into the D800 image... you're using a small part of the sensor if you wanted to the show the same level of magnification, so you're cropping into the D800 image... reducing it's quality.


What YOUR test is doing is comparing a crop sensor camera to a full frame camera operating in crop mode. It dos appear that the 70D's sensor has a higher pixel density, but that's neither here nor there. As a comparative test between the two cameras, it's only valid if you compare the 70D against the D800 in DX mode.

This test is flawed, and unfortunately is of little use as a side by side comparison of the two cameras. The 70D should be using a 35mm prime and the D800 a 50mm prime so the effective magnification of the scene is the same in both cameras... like I did in this thread.

 

[HoppyUK]

But is that all not negated by the larger sensor of the D800, the way I understood it is the actual focal length does not change but you just get a cropped image from the 70D where the lager sensor of D800 makes up the rest of the image?

So if you actually crop the D800 image to the same everything is equal?

Edit: Pooks is ahead of me. The images on his link show the real difference

The D800's key advantage is the physically larger sensor that allows lenses to perform better. To make a valid comparison that shows this, then the same subject must be framed the same, ie D800 at say 35mm and the 70D at 56mm, or both at the same focal length and the 70D moved back to 1.6x the distance to restore same framing.

Then when the two are compared, the D800 image has to be enlarged less, lens MTF will be higher, and that will show a sharper result. The other benefits of the larger sensor are lower noise, because the sensor collects more light, and greater dynamic range with more detail in the shadows, for the same reason.

 

[Nod]

Pointless comparison really - two totally different cameras aimed at different users. Which is better, a Citroen C1 or a Lamborghini Aventador?

 

[Ivan S]

I'm sorry guys but that is the way I understood it, and that D7000 image pookeyhead in your post looks out of focus to me, overall I'd still take the 70D because of cost and cost of quality glass that the D800 reportedly requires as the image just looks better from the Canon (imo also it has GPS and a touch screen and excellent in video focus capability's, sadly nikon is lagging behind bigtime) but thats just me being tight lol

 

[Pookeyhead]

I'm sorry guys but that is the way I understood it, and that D7000 image pookeyhead in your post looks out of focus to me

Well.. it's not. That's the difference between a small sensor and a larger one. All focusing was manual with a maximum zoomed in live view and a Nikkor prime lens at f5.6 and the cameras on a full size large format studio camera stand that weights about 100Kg! It's bang on.

, overall I'd still take the 70D because of cost and cost of quality glass that the D800 reportedly requires as the image just looks better from the Canon (imo also it has GPS and a touch screen and excellent in video focus capability's, sadly nikon is lagging behind bigtime) but thats just me being tight lol

That's up to you and your own rationale. However... as a comparative test, it's invalid. No APS-C camera can hope to rival a full frame camera, no matter what type or make. This would equally apply to comparing the 70D to the 5D Mark III etc.

Bigger sensors result in sharper images when all else is equal. Fact.

 

[Ozei]

..... as a D800 owner who loves the camera I can say that the live view on the D800 is one of its big let downs. .......

The main problem is that the D800's sensor has 4912 'lines' (i.e. rows of pixels) whereas its LCD monitor only has 480 lines.* So each line on the monitor is trying to represent more than ten rows of pixels on the sensor - hence the more zoomed in it is the more confused LV focussing becomes.

One solution would be to use an 8K Ultra High Definition monitor (nine times as many horizontal lines as the D800's LCD)** - but trying to carry one of those around would be slightly tricky.

* D800 LCD = 921,000 dots / 3 (RGB) = 307,000 pixels = 640 x 480.
** 8K monitor = 7680 x 4320.

 

[Ozei]

PS. Thom Hogan's D800 guide describes switching LV to 'movie' mode when focussing for stills - this changes the LCD:sensor ratio from 480:4912 to 480:3776.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Once zoomed all the way it's utterly blatant when focus is achieved visually.

 

[n0chex]

I know both cameras are completely different in the fact one is a crop sensor and the other a full frame and I am convinced even with a 35mm lens on the canon and a 50mm lens on the Nikon with the same shot the canon will still come out on top at 100% crop. What you also have to remember is the Nikon is a very expensive camera over twice the price of the canon.

I will get this back on topic as in my initial question was I wanted a camera for landscape work with a tripod and from the pictures I took the much cheaper canon 70D won this and I even think if I would have used a quality lens 35mm on the canon and the 50mm lens on the Nikon canon would have still come out looking better using live view.

As mentioned above the focus system on the canon using live view is brilliant and the only thing I can say negative about the canon is the screen just looks to small but then I could always use the canon app via my phones screen which should give me even better results.

I am also considering the Canon 6D and was a shame that camera was not available at the time I was testing various cameras and I did test the Sony 7R with the ziess 55mm but again the canons image looked the best to me.

I can upload that image also RAW untouched if anyone wants to look.

 

[tray271]

hi everyone...i went with andy myself as i was after seeing what the d800 and the canon 70d and allso the sony a7r were capable of...the results suprised me ...the tripod was stable ,all at f8,...when we got back i was thinking the a7r would be the sharpest then the d800 then finally the 70d..out of all the outdoor shots the 70d was the sharpest....my conclusion is ..with good technique the a7r would be the best followed by the d800..d800 has a few quality control problems and the live view isnt the best so you have to be very very accurate with setup etc...i like the lcd screen and it feels good ..sony a7r really nice but being a canon shooter for soooo long the menu system just isnt for me..i have a nex 6 which produces superb results for manual focus old lenses but i allways forget were the controld are ...in these tests the 70d was much better in live view and more accurate ..ive been after the 36 mega pixel camera but i have now decided after a long hard think im goin to get a canon 6d and keep my nex 6 for a bit longer ....the nikon d800 and a7r are superb but you have to be experienced to get the best out of them and allso use quality glass......canon superb menu system and great live view....nikon great lcd ,good menu system but not enough lens choice...sony a7r great size ,menu system will take time to get used to ..big lenses dont balance well on such a small camera ....canon 6d for value for money wins it for me until canon bring a big 36 or 40 plus sensor out .

 

[Pookeyhead]

I know both cameras are completely different in the fact one is a crop sensor and the other a full frame and I am convinced even with a 35mm lens on the canon and a 50mm lens on the Nikon with the same shot the canon will still come out on top at 100% crop.

LOL. No.. it won't.

from the pictures I took the much cheaper canon 70D won this

No.. it didn't... LOL. It was a completely unfair test, as you have to magnify the D800 image so much in order to get the magnification the same. Bloody hell man.. LOL

and I even think if I would have used a quality lens 35mm on the canon and the 50mm lens on the Nikon canon would have still come out looking better using live view.

Look.. you're wrong. It wouldn't. You're trying VERY hard to convince yourself a 70D will give sharper images than a D800. It won't... ever... the end.


What has using live view got to do with anything? Once zoomed in all the way, either camera can easily show when the image is in focus.

As mentioned above the focus system on the canon using live view is brilliant

What??? You using AF? and live view? What for? The whole point of live view is to use MANUAL focusing. AF with live view is utter sh*t on both cameras as you've disabled the phase detection system and using a primitive contrast based AF system.

I did test the Sony 7R with the ziess 55mm but again the canons image looked the best to me.

I can upload that image also RAW untouched if anyone wants to look.

It will be a totally different image, so very difficult to establish, but the 7R is a full frame camera... it WILL be superior to the 70D.


You're arguing against fact, physics and common sense now.

The larger the sensor, all other things being equal, the sharper the image. This is not open to debate... it is a fact.

I can't remember the last time I've seen someone try so hard to distort facts to suit their own ends, or to justify a purchase.

There's nothing wrong with the 70D.. it's a fantastic camera.... but please. It can not, and will not ever outperform a full frame SLR.

hi everyone...i went with andy myself as i was after seeing what the d800 and the canon 70d and allso the sony a7r were capable of...the results suprised me ...the tripod was stable ,all at f8,...when we got back i was thinking the a7r would be the sharpest then the d800 then finally the 70d..out of all the outdoor shots the 70d was the sharpest.

Then something was wrong with your test. I hope your test was better than the one at the top of this thread.

The Sony 7R will comfortably outperform a Canon 70D.

 

[n0chex]

Here is the sample side by side from the Sony 7R & Nikon D800

 

[Pookeyhead]

Uhuh... 2 full frame cameras looking similar. No surprise there. They've got different screen magnifications set in PS... so aliasing may be an issue there.

Post up the RAW files.

[edit] Didn't realise you'd edited post #1

 

[n0chex]

Not getting into arguments here my friend and on paper the d800 "should" be much better but to my eyes "fact" the 70d is sharper and the sony 7r is sharper than the d800 also.

I think you are forgetting what my initial post was about which was using live view " MF " on a tripod which was best and it is plain to see the canons pictures look sharper with better focusing and contrast.

 

[n0chex]

Uhuh... 2 full frame cameras looking similar. No surprise there. They've got different screen magnifications set in PS... so aliasing may be an issue there.

Post up the RAW files.

[edit] Didn't realise you'd edited post #1

I edited post 1 to post the RAW file of the Sony.

 

[n0chex]

Screen magnification was set to 100% in PS for both pictures.

 

[tray271]

sony a7r no aa filter will beat the d800 everytime ..as ive said good tech is needed...in the tests done the nikon d800 on nearly every shot was soft..canon 70d sharp nearly all shots.....the d800 should be sharper and i agree with pookeyhead...but and this is a big but ............the 70d is sharper

 

[Pookeyhead]

Screen magnification was set to 100% in PS for both pictures.

Indeed.. but the focal lengths are not the same. I thought you'd be using the same focal length.. but again, you're not... seems you're not getting this whole image magnification thing.

Not getting into arguments here my friend and on paper the d800 "should" be much better but to my eyes "fact" the 70d is sharper and the sony 7r is sharper than the d800 also.

I think you are forgetting what my initial post was about which was using live view " MF " on a tripod which was best and it is plain to see the canons pictures look sharper with better focusing and contrast.

The Sony shot has a quite noticeably narrower field of view.... because it's 5mm longer in focal length... again, the objects and details are smaller in the D800 image than they are in the 7R image. It is not a well controlled test. There will be very little difference in sharpness between the D800 and &r in a well controlled test by someone who knows what they're doing. As for the 70D, we've explained why it's sharper, but you're incapable of understanding.

Your methodology in testing is hugely flawed, and you have no understanding of the role image magnification plays in this matter.

You say in post #1 you're trying to convince yourself that you need a D800. Seems to me that you're doing everything you can to convince your

self to get a Canon 70D. So just buy one, it's great.. you'll love it... but please... stop with the hugely flawed tests that seem to just say exactly what you want them to say.

sony a7r no aa filter will beat the d800 everytime ..as ive said good tech is needed...in the tests done the nikon d800 on nearly every shot was soft..canon 70d sharp nearly all shots.....the d800 should be sharper and i agree with pookeyhead...but and this is a big but ............the 70d is sharper

Why are you banging on about technology? You do realise that the D800 uses a derivative of teh same sensor as the 7R don't you? What "good tech" are you referring to?


They'll be very little to choose between the 2 cameras if the test was actually controlled well, and fair. The lack of AA will be offset by the higher D800 res... but then again... those being THAT picky would probably go for a D800E, also with no AA filter. The Sony used a longer lens and has greater magnification as a result. Again.... something that seems to baffle you.


The 70D is not sharper. LOL

If you don't understand why the images in this thread are MASSIVELY flawed and are not worth a damn... then there's no hope for you.


Whichever of these you get.... enjoy. Just don't consider a career in reviewing equipment is all I can say

 

[n0chex]

Massively flawed my ass the only thing flawed is the D800 and it's focusing issues http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Nikon D800 Focusing Issues maybe something to do with it.

Most important is your comments "but you're incapable of understanding" I find that very rude and personal and nothing to do with the thread. I also see you have made a similar comment to the poster below which is out of order.

 

[tray271]

i agree d800 quality control ...allso its a fact the a7r beats the d800....and your comment to my friend {but you're incapable of understanding} was very rude ..no need for it .......yes the 70d is a 1.6 crop and yes the nikon is a full frame ....but the images can not lie .atleast on the tests we have done .....im goin to go all out and get the 1dx for its superb focus speed and the a7r just for my landscape work ..nikon d800 isnt for me

 

[Ironeagle]

What's the problem with the D800 in live view?

 

[Pookeyhead]

Tray271 and n0chex... it's clear you're mates, and you're just backing each other up, so let me put some sense, and facts back into this thread.

Focusing issues? You were focusing manually. If there's a focusing issue, it was you, not the camera

Anyway. yes.. massively flawed.

Let me demonstrate. You may, or may not be aware that you are NOT the only person in the world that has tested these cameras. Others have... and under MUCH more stringent conditions.

DP Review test image.

Click the images for full size.

uncorrected RAW file from 70D

uncorrected RAW file from Sony 7R

uncorrected RAW file from D800

As expected, the 70D is lagging behind... a lot.

The D800 and 7R are very close. The lack of AA filter in the 7R and the extra resolution of the D800 almost cancel each other out, with the no AA 7R having better edge contrast, but the higher res D800 actually makes the text equally as legible. It's clear though, that the D800E should be the one to go for if sharpness is your priority, as removing the AA filter from it would obviously nudge it ahead of the 7R. . If price is a factor the 7R is actually a better deal, yes and makes a very attractive proposition. Having said this... you have to bear in mind that the test image here was taken using a Zeiss lens on the 7R. The same lens fitted on the D800 (it is available in Nikon F) would probably reveal a very slight advantage in the Nikon... but you pay £600 more... so to be honest, either the D800 or 7r would be WAY beyond your needs unless you print massively. Sadly.. the 70D is what you'd expect from a crop sensor camera.

So there... a proper test, done under exacting conditions, vs. your snapshots in a shop doorway with different focal lengths.

I'll let the readers decide which is valid and which is not.